Thread by @RoyceRk2

Day 3 of the #RobodebtRC * is rolling. I'll be tweeting on and off as I work. Anne Pulford, principal lawyer for the Department of Social Services is appearing this morning regarding her review of legal advice that found it was not legal.

*corrected and reposted. Again.

I'm going stick to broader observations as others are across the blow-by-blow: evidence from Pullman highlights tension between Department of Social Services (DSS) and Department of Human Services (DHS). DSS thought Robodebt was bad news, DHS wanted to power ahead. #RobodebtRC

Pullman is asked about when she learned the proposal for Robodebt, which she believed to not be legally defensible, was to be included in the budget with support of the Minister despite the DSS opposition.

Scott Morrison was Social Services minister at the time.
#RobodebtRC

Justin Greggery KC is working back through an email chain following the decision to enact the Robodebt scheme. What followed was a flurry of activity as people discussed how the law needed to change in order to make the system legal.

That never happened.

#RobodebtRC

This was in March 2015, by the way. Now questions shifting to the New Policy Proposal (NPP) by DHS. In it was a checklist saying there was "no legislative change required". An internal email sent to DSS lawyers asked whether that might be a problem.

#RobodebtRC

I missed the first bit after the break but so far the conversation now has been about other legal questions like the 10% recovery fee. DHS emails made clear it would be used as a tool to force people to engage with them.

#RobodebtRC

There were also questions about the preferred letters used to contact people and the chain of response that would follow. A clear preference was given to the letters that directed people to go online. Why? Because they'd have to pay someone to answer the phone.

#RobodebtRC

Interesting set of questions about when Pulford shifted from thinking Robodebt was not legal to accepting it as wrote. She seems to say her department told govt what was what, that advice was disregarded, a decision was made, so they just got on with it.

#RobodebtRC

There is so much to say at this point: it's a mash-up of "just following orders" and "not my job". Pulford's department knew it was wrong, but those questions stopped being asked bc they saw their role as advising government on how to implement policy.

#RobodebtRC

Pulford says she can't remember the public outcry between December 2016 and January 2017 about Robodebt. She can remember the Ombudsman initiating an inquiry, but not the campaign against it.

Later confirms DHS was pushing hard to keep the 10% recovery fee.

#RobodebtRC

Adjourned. Going to use this time to do some work which will actually get me paid.

#RobodebtRC

We're back now and the timeline has moved on. In the wake of the massive public backlash, DSS lawyers started getting hit with long lists of questions asking, basically: yo, this legit? And then: What can we say to make it sound legit?

#RobodebtRC

Then we get to the Big Question. Pulford is asked about whether she faced internal pressure to change her original advice, given in 2014, that the Robodebt scheme was illegal to support the scheme in 2017. There is a Long pause before she responds.

#Robodebt

You can count the seconds, though my brain did not process her answer, but @SquigglyRick's quick fingers caught it:

#RobodebtRC

https://twitter.com/SquigglyRick/status/1587670037619675141?s=20&t=tiwFt4KG7TswlUpDF6u7Eg

Pulford being asked now the time the Ombudsman came looking for the legal basis on the screen. In her response, she confirms the request was read narrowly and in a way to withhold the 2014 advice -- which said Robodebt was illegal.

#RobodebtRC

For what it's worth this is clear confirmation of a strategy that was used in response to everything from Freedom of Information to appeals. If you didn't approach every interaction like a lawyer, you're getting nowhere.

#RobodebtRC

Later emails are then shown where Pulford intervened to ensure the 2014 legal advice would be supplied to the Ombudsman with language to explain any inconsistencies.

So after initially attempting to avoid scrutiny, she then made sure to include it.

#RobodebtRC

Had to step away for a hot minute but I came back to hear that there is now an open question about whether the 2014 advice was ever *actually* provided to the Ombudsman.

Ruh-ro.

#RobodebtRC

Right, so even when they called in hired guns, the lawyers at Clayton Utz refused to sign off on robodebt. Dpt's reaction internal was to describe it as "unhelpful". They said CU offered to "subtly" rework it if "catastrophic" but wouldn't budge.

#RobodebtRC

Greggery reads emails from Pulford in 2017 and asks her point blank about how, if accepted, the external advice meant the end of the robodebt scheme. She wavers in her response. Can't remember much.

#RobodebtRC

Keep in mind that a) departmental officials have been repeatedly asked during Senate estimates about whether there was sound legal basis for the scheme and b) this was two years before Amato blew up Robodebt.

#RobodebtRC

Greggery now pinning Pulford on how she can't find a copy of the finalised advice. The suggestion is that the department did not want to be formally advised so it could maintain plausible deniability.

#RobodebtRC

Holmes gets straight to the point: she asks whether its a common practice to seek external legal advice and, if the department doesn't like the advice, it is simply never finalised and forgotten.

Pulford confirms that is so.

"I'm appalled."

#RobodebtRC

"I'm appalled" -- those words from Holmes perfectly capture the moment. They also raise the question: if this is how things are done in DSS, what about other departments? Other issues?

#RobodebtRC

Pulford describes the role of in-house lawyers as pointing out certain risks to decision makers and to help find "constructive ways" of moving forward once those decisions have been made.

#RobodebtRC

"But why do we need a Royal Commission?"

#RobodebtRC

https://twitter.com/DarrenODonovan/status/1587689693344198656?s=20&t=CokheD_ym_ZsYDrO3ZkNgw

👇 #RobodebtRC

https://twitter.com/rsl1957/status/1587691921153339392?s=20&t=OfYvTWAindeer39gn21ooQ

Pulford is done and Emma McGuirk is up to give evidence. McGuirk was described by Pulford has pressuring her to give advice with a specific outcome.
Gotta make a couple of phone calls now so will miss the start.

#RobodebtRC

Hearings are back this morning at 10.30am in Brisbane. I'll be watching and continuing to post to this thread so people can just hit mute if they aren't interested in this look behind the bureaucratic curtain.

Until then, I got some work to do.

#RobodebtRC

Had an early interview, and it seems I missed the early history -- which is a shame. The Australian robodebt system appeared to have taking the idea from the MiDAS system in Michigan which ended up pretty much the same way.

#RobodebtRC

https://twitter.com/DarrenODonovan/status/1587965147590426625?s=20&t=druQcOJGjD4frKWAovxofg

Here's some background on the MiDAS system by the way - this has often been neglected in the Robodebt history. As the US State of Michigan was unpicking the damage of automated debt recovery, Australia was implementing it nationally.

#RobodebtRC

theguardian.com/us-news/2016/f…

And here's @Asher_Wolf with receipts: CPSU tried telling people about the fate of the MiDAS system which shows there was an awareness in the public service. So what did the Robodebt authors at DHS know?

#RobodebtRC

https://twitter.com/Asher_Wolf/status/1587972628676943874?s=20&t=mZ07lnI1sa-APdoyGMEqXQ

Honestly. There's just too much going on right now.

#RobotdebtRC

https://twitter.com/antipovertycent/status/1587968049939828736

To summarise the evidence being given: Lisa Keeling was asked to looking into what legal advice was provided and when. No one told her the 2014 advice existed and she never spoke to the higher ups. In the end, she appears to have concluded that it was all kocher.

#RobodebtRC

Two parts of this stand out: the reliance on the appeals process to correct any error - which is a transfer of risk and cost onto the individual - and the assumption that someone, at some point, must have had legal advice so it was taken as a given.

#RobodebtRC

Keeling is now asked about how departments request draft legal advice and don't finalise it if they don't like what it says. She is asked why this happens.

Keeling: "It's usually something then that would need to be escalated and relied upon."

#RobodebtRC

Keeling confirms that advice, once finalised, would need to be sent up the chain as high as the Minister who may not want to hear it.

Holmes: "It's like a child putting its hands over its eyes and thinking it can't see it."

Keeling agrees.

#RobodebtRC

Commissioner Holmes is now giving her decision on which documents we get to read. I didn't follow which ones but @DarrenODonovan says it includes the Executive Minute - a document I, and others, have had open FOI's on.

#robodebtRC

https://twitter.com/DarrenODonovan/status/1588001110484086784?s=20&t=Adix1vPJYYcKamJ2fokOeg

The Department has worked very hard to keep them secret for the longest time, so I imagine someone, somewhere is not very happy.

#robodebtRC

Going back into session now. What's incredible about the #RobodebtRC so far is the way it's shown how Minister's warp reality around them. To avoid responsibility, they need to stay blind to certain facts - and the bureaucracy appears happy to help.

Really gives a different spin on the old line from Donald Horne about how things work in Aus: "[...] Most of its leaders (in all fields) so lack curiosity about the events that surround them that they are often taken by surprise."

#robodebtRC

First question to Jeremy Hirschhorn, Second Commissioner, Client Engagement Group, ATO being asked about the practice of draft advice being sought and then not finalised to maintain plausible deniability.

He says he's not seen it done.

#RobodebtRC

Not going to be posting much as I have some work to do, but here's a summary of what the ATO will say.

#RobodebtRC

https://twitter.com/DarrenODonovan/status/1588026036171640832?s=20&t=Adix1vPJYYcKamJ2fokOeg

I've been listening on and off, but my read on the sketch emerging is one of a bullish Department of Human Services trying to reverse engineer its system after it has already launched and so creating a heap of work for others, in this case the ATO.

#RobodebtRC

The current exchange is interesting for the tension created by a DHS request for the ATO to share tax file numbers. When the ATO did a double take and asked a few questions, their lawyers told them that would be illegal. DHS insisted that it was kocher.

#RobodebtRC

Fun details to come out of the final session: DHS promised the government they'd be up and running, and were running around telling everyone how they needed data, like, yesterday so they could deliver.

Anyway, done for today. Looking forward to tomorrow.

#RobodebtRC

Day 4 of the #RobodebtRC begins today and I'll be tweeting on and off around my other obligations. This is your reminder to mute the friend if you don't want to follow.

I also want to highlight something @Asher_Wolf picked up on but I couldn't check until the transcript came out

DSS lawyer Anne Pulford was shown an email which gives a shopping list about all the things DHS wanted this system to do. The key words are "geospatial analysis" and "risk monitoring".

#RobodebtRC

Seems DHS wanted to map out where poor people lived and police them by postcode. If you lived in, say, that part of Elizabeth, SA where the unemployment rate swings between 30 and 35%, they'd be watching you like a hawk. Northern Beaches, NSW? You're sweet.

#RobodebtRC

In my book Just Money, I described this as "techie utopian solutioneering". It's unclear, however, whether the department even had the technical capacity to actually engage in this sort of profiling, but it's a pretty good insight into where their heads were at.

#RobodebtRC

I missed al this morning due to bisnez and will miss a chunk more but I'm just catching up now.

Seems like this morning has gone well.

#RobodebtRC

https://twitter.com/DarrenODonovan/status/1588334798392545280?s=20&t=sU3R1o_g5_nc93uo-cvxHw

We're back with the Royal Commission and Matthew Flavel, Deputy Secretary, Social Security, Department of Social Service is being grilled by Commissioner Catherine Holmes about why he has provided a statement to the Commission with no supporting documents.

#RobodebtRC

Essentially, Flavel has provided a statement that refers to several government documents but Holmes is frustrated that the Commission simply has to take it on face value that the descriptions of them by Flavel are fair, accurate and correct.

#RobodebtRC

For what it's worth, "trust us" has been a pattern of behaviour among departmental officials since the Robodebt scheme began -- it is also ironic given that if those on a social security payment had behaved this way, they'd be cut off their payment.

#RobodebtRC

Context here is important: Flavel is a newbie to DSS and had no involvement with the Robodebt system. Someone helped him prepare his statement, but he has not provided the underlying documents and can't say what he may have missed.

#RobodebtRC

What it *looks* like is obstruction as the department plays the clock. Essentially, the RC has limited time to carry out its hearings, and by doing this, the inquiry now has to chew through a bunch of time attempting to cross reference Flavel's statement.

#RobodebtRC

Again, I have to listen to hearings between the things I'm actually paid to do, but the focus of this session has largely been Flavel as front-man, answering very specific questions in general terms about things he had no direct personal experience of.

#RobodebtRC

Much of the conversation zeroed in on a complete lack of documentation about the process of designing Robodebt in the committee set up to flesh it out. No minutes, no notes, no documents - nothing.

And this is why that is significant 👇

https://twitter.com/DarrenODonovan/status/1589424247440830464?s=20&t=qjXngK8wrfu4gfG6q6mCKA

#RobodebtRC

We're now adjourned with Commissioner Holmes given Flavel homework to check whether the RC has actually been supplied a document referred to in his statement.

#RobodebtRC

A heap of time is being eaten up as the RC tries to get Flavel to do the work they originally asked him to do ahead of time and produce the right documents to the RC.

#RobodebtRC

Commissioner when questioning Flavel just now: "...It's a pretty good illustration of why we need you to identify the documents you rely on so that we can actually see what they say and how much they say or how little they say."

#RobodebtRC

We're back after the break with Christopher Birrer, Deputy CEO of Services Australia who transferred into the agency from the Department of Defence 2020. He was not around for the operation of Robodebt, but was around for the litigation and refund period.

#RobodebtRC

Curious overlap being department of defence officials moving into Department of Social Services et all.

#RobodebtRC

Now, I could be wrong but I believe Birrer just said Services Australia had found 30 terrabytes of data ahead of the Royal Commission before doing some data analysis. Now they've provided 300,000 documents to the RC?

I may have misheard.

#RobodebtRC

Had to speak to someone on a story, but tuned back in as Birrer was describing robodebt as "totally oversold". Commissioner Holmes described it like the US government promising there were chemical weapons in Iraq.

#RobodebtRC

Birrer points to the documents he reviewed and those points where officials said that if people didn't like the decision to hit them with a debt "they can just appeal".

Again, this was a deliberate decision to transfer risk onto people with no resources.

#RobodebtRC

Birrer really putting the boot into DHS saying they "really rushed to failure" when designing robodebt that caused a cascading series of issues.

There is a gulf between "good design" and whether this should have ever been attempted. Where someone lands is telling.

#RobodebtRC

And that's a wrap for today. Tune in tomorrow for the next instalment of this really quite compelling True Crime podcast.

#RobodebtRC

https://twitter.com/SquigglyRick/status/1589503259039117313?s=20&t=qjXngK8wrfu4gfG6q6mCKA

Back for Day 7 - time blurs during hearings - and as a warm up, check this thread by @DarrenODonovan on the work that went into pulling apart the Robodebt scheme.

This is your reminder that if you're seeing this and don't want to, mute now.

#RobodebtRC

https://twitter.com/DarrenODonovan/status/1589679967327358976?s=20&t=mbjWZWuPAoOtbfBQURHlbw

Scott Britton, former national Manager, Compliance Risk with DHS (now with NDIS, last I heard) is up this morning. Lawyers for the govt saying that since his statement he's discovered further documents.

They can't be provided today though.

#RobodebtRC

A supplementary statement will be provided. The Government's lawyer says everyone involved hasn't been able to keep up with the speed of the inquiry. Also wishes to stresses that Britton had a minor role and reported to others.

#RobodebtRC

Britton says he's found 83 emails "from that period" and there are 30 that "may be or specifically relevant to matters of the commission".

And he's had a "recent conversation" to better understand what the email extracts were.

#RobodebtRC

He is "unclear if there are additional emails relevant to the scope of the Commission's review."

Asked how quickly he can do that: "to be honest, I am unclear. It will depend on the volume or quantum of the email."

#RobodebtRC

When can he process the rest? Britton says he "would be more comfortable with weeks than days".

For the record, if those who had been issued debts had said this, the answer would not have been favourable.

#RobodebtRC

Britton is talking now about pressures from above to increase debt collection measures on people on social security. This led to the creation of a new division with DHS to guide this.

He says he did not know the legal basis on which data was being shared.

#RobodebtRC

Britton nominates Ben Lumley (spelling?) as a person to speak to regarding the legality of the robodebt scheme. That name's come up a bit.

Britton's describing the internal workings of DHS: "I called it a big machine". He stresses the amount of work to be done.

#RobodebtRC

Britton goes on to say this grew worse as pressure came from the government to make "savings".

"Definitely the emphasis was on the dollars, the savings on those measures."

He makes clear he reported to Mark Withnell.

#RobodebtRC

Britton: "There have historically been significant levels of noncompliance within the welfare system. We were overwhelmed, overworked."

Britton asked what he means by this.

"The level of noncompliance at the time was shown through the volume of data matches."

#RobodebtRC

Britton: "Often you don't realise what you're in until you're out of it."

Britton describes himself as a conduit between the higher ups and the team below him; he provided technical know-how to and was "part of the conversation" not a shot caller.

#RobodebtRC

Britton discussing his role in looking to modernise compliance processes. His focus is on how it was "manual, very manual". The idea was to use algorithims to find discrepancies and then use other data to clean them up.

#RobodebtRC

Observation: much of the language used here is dry, distant, technical when discussing *enforcement activity*. Streamlining compliance and avoiding "red tape" for employers translates into real harm, confusion and pain for thousands of flesh and blood people.

#RobodebtRC

One basic problem Britton is describing is a frustration within the department about the legwork required in doing actual investigations - they didn't like that someone had to write to individual employers and ask for payment information - to actually find proof.

#RobodebtRC

Again, this goes to the function of Robdebt as a whole: risk shifting. A deliberate decision was made to move the obligation - and the associated risk and the cost (in terms of time and resources) - onto people receiving Centrelink payments.

#RobodebtRC

It's being suggested that Robodebt began life in October 2014. Still no word yet on who had the flash of genius yet. Britton is shown an email mentioned a meeting on the 14th, but he has no recollection.

#RobodebtRC

I did not know this part of the legal history, but it is something worth remembering when people speak of "the bludgers". 👇

https://twitter.com/chrisrudge/status/1589791464900694017?s=20&t=rPyAG82Q4fRKND12sCEpaQ

#RobodebtRC

Had to do an interview, but boy howdy does it seem like we came back from break and some stuff went down. Seems this document, from June 2014, was a complete surprise to Britton. I believe this pushes back creation date somewhat.

https://twitter.com/SquigglyRick/status/1589799058042126336?s=20&t=SLuPqOTWq2rv82XKfFPUCw

#RobodebtRC

Britton is now asked whether her personally informed himself about whether the risks were appropriate.

He pauses for a few moments before answer.

"I absolutely had expectations and trust in the team leading the work."

#RobodebtRC

Not doing a blow by blow here as I missed the start, but Britton, is being asked about documents he missed, what he saw and when -- and he mostly can't recall. Worth noting that he was the national manager and the Robodebt project team sat outside his office.

#RobodebtRC

Britton being asked about his team's training:

"As we built out new compliance concepts..."

"I also overlay that..."

"The change management side offering transition to the new processes was robust and efficient..."

"On reflection..."

"A lot of moving parts..."

#RobodebtRC

Britton: "I spoke to staff in training sessions about why the work was important, so I did have a physical presence around the assurance of this as well."

So much jargon.

#RobodebtRC

Britton now discussing the potential for people to not respond or engage with DHS -- and so had debts raised against them anyway.

Email dated 6 May 2015 playing round with assuming that those who do not engage agree with the information.

#RobodebtRC

Britton agrees that this was a design feature that was being explored early on (and so was preliminary).

"There's an assumption made someone's chosen not to respond to the letter so we would apply the information".

#RobodebtRC

Britton is asked about whether anyone bothered to investigate why people weren't responded to letters.

"I think there was."

He adds that there was "some conversation" about how they could influence the response. He does not recall any specific work he authorised.

#RobodebtRC

He is asked about whether customers were contacted to asked them.

Britton: "One of the initiatives to influence the behaviour to clarify the detail.

Britton goes on to say that this used "behavioural insights", referring to the language and content of the letter.

#RobodebtRC

People who received a Robodebt know all too well what it was like to be "nudged" by the department into responding. It used a combination of specific language and threats to give the illusion of choice when the outcome was largely predetermined.

#RobodebtRC

Britton: "In the compliance space in particular... we were thinking about how we could apply behavioural insights."

"The letters were different from the previous compliance type letters was."

#RobodebtRC

Britton: "Language, terms as well, the construct of the letter. For me it was the principles and not the detail."

Commissioner interrupts and hearings are adjourned for lunch.

#RobodebtRC

I'm mostly listening now as I have things to do, but love the phrasing this email about appeals at the AAT and noting how many go unpublished.

The language: "is still not considered to be a threat to the program".

#RobodebtRC

I haven't been following today as I have several converging deadlines. But follow @DarrenODonovan, @SquigglyRick, @lukehgomes, @Asher_Wolf, @beneltham and @maximumcuddles for the latest developments, history and snark.

#RobodebtRC

And @not_my_debt. Obviously.

Don't do everything at once. In fact, don't say yes to things. Ever.

#RobodebtRC

Today is a big day at the #RobodebtRC with the pressure having reason and the shot callers within the department expected to give evidence.

Not unlike our man Scott Britton, I found myself reflecting on everything we've seen to date.

For years activists, reporters (starting with @knausc who was onto it before everyone), politicians (Andrew Wilkie, Rachel Siewert), lawyers, judges all asked questions. Hearing the answers now the situation is worse.

#RobodebtRC

It is also ironic. We've heard about officials losing, overlooking or destroying key documents, being unable to recall key moments, nominating other people as having responsibility - all things that the department does not tolerate from those on social security.

#RobodebtRC

Robodebt -- and the broader social security system -- punishes people who make these excuses. Failing to disclose, failing to engage, failing to provide docs, failing to remember -- all of these are met with swift punishment, condescension and moral judgement.

#RobodebtRC

If you are poor, you are monitored, surveilled and policed.

What is so interesting about this process is that those whose job it was to do this policing, for the first time, have to explain themselves in a venue where they can't dissemble.

And it's not going well.

#RobodebtRC

I'll again be watching in between calls on other jobs. DSS Secretary Fin Pratt is first up and is being taking through the rules. This is all prelude, establishing who had responsibility for what and what the terms of engagement were supposed to be.

#RobodebtRC

Pratt: "I do recall thinking what a clever thing to do".

Caught the answer but not the set up, I believe this was in regards to the implementation of the Robodebt scheme.

#RobodebtRC

Pratt now because asked about how meetings with other senior figures were arranged, their norms, expectations and note taking procedures.

#RobodebtRC

The picture being sketched is curious: public service employees did the grunt work, the decision makers decided things but those decision makers were really very busy people -- too busy to be across every detail.

#RobodebtRC

This part of the process is surveying what records were kept across different points in the timeline. It's a pretty good lesson in how to establish a base of knowledge in order to measure responses from this witness and others.

#RobodebtRC

We are now being shown notes regarding a meeting with Scott Morrison - "one of many", Pratt says.

Bit of snark about Pratt's handwriting:

Greggery: "I don't mean to be rude but I can't read all of it."

Pratt: "I'm surprised you can read any of it."

#RobodebtRC

Pratt says Morrison wanted a "welfare cop" that operated across the welfare sector, including in child care.

Running through a list of welfare reform ideas that were floated.

#RobodebtRC

I did not exaggerate 👇

https://twitter.com/RoyceRk2/status/1590464688755990528?s=20&t=eZGI3_XoRF2t7ZdqlWn0zg

#RobodebtRC

Adjourned now - if you're enjoying this look behind the veil at how decision making occurs at the highest levels of government, think about how this works when it comes to issues like, I don't know, climate change.

#RobodebtRC

We're back. Pratt says he largely left management of the social security system to Serena Wilson. He was involved in broad brush decision making and planning, but Wilson ran the shop.

#RobodebtRC

We've arrived at the executive minute. Section being shown describes the creation of a new unit to "aggressively target" people on Newstart, DSP, Austudy and Carers Payments.

They wanted to send a message: "You're next".

#RobodebtRC

The minute notes the proposals "may have significant implications for social security policy and legislation". It is underlined.

Pratt says he does not remember who underlined it.

#RobodebtRC

The proposal highlights that there would be community opposition to the harsh measures being proposed.

Pratt is asked about discussions with Morrison about the details of the scheme - money to be raised, methods, issues and so on.

Pratt: No.

#RobodebtRC

Pratt says it would be wrong for a public servant to conceal the need for legislative change to enact a major proposal.

This is significant - it shows the legal and practical standard expected of senior public servants.

#RobodebtRC

Pratt: "I cannot think of any examples where a conspiracy has been concocted to do something deliberately."

Commissioner: "What about conspiracy to conceal stuff up?"

#RobodebtRC

Pratt: "Sometimes bureaucracies can be pretty good at trying to minimise damage from adverse reports in the media or senate estimates. That sort of thing, but ultimately when it gets to senate estimates for example [...]

#RobodebtRC

Pratt [cont'd]: "...That is really a requirement for bureaucracy to answer the question."

These are really interest comments given I caught the Department of Human Services in a cover up - which is what he's describing.

thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/…

#RobodebtRC

👇

https://twitter.com/lukehgomes/status/1590515753476030466

#RobodebtRC

Mostly just listening in this second half - I have a job to do and my stream keeps buffering - but Commissioner Holmes really is taking no guff.

#RobodebtRC

Pratt sounds frustrated. To summarise: He was harangued, he was busy, he has was working under a Coalition government which was running an austerity programme that brought bad press - he just didn't have enough spoons to pay attention to Robodebt.

#RobodebtRC

Robodebt was another department's problem - not his. So in the end he signed off on a letter to the Ombudsman saying his department had no issues with the legals underpinning the scheme.

And when Ombudsman's report came out it put the breaks on efforts to stop it.

#RobodebtRC

Greggery is now asking Pratt how this scheme could operate for a number of years without his knowledge. Pratt deflects. Greggery presses on, telling Pratt that Serena Wilson gave evidence yesterday that she knew Robotdebt was unlawful and did not tell him.

#RobodebtRC

Pratt: "If you are suggesting to me that there was some form of conspiracy amongst my people to dupe me, I refuse to believe that."

Geggery presses him further. Asks him to consider the possibility.

Pratt: "I do not believe that is possible."

#RobodebtRC

He pauses for a moment to consider.

"Why would she not tell me? I don't understand, what would be the motivation for not telling me?"

Oof.

#RobodebtRC

Pratt is done now and Kathryn Campbell is being sworn in. She is the former secretary of the Department of Social Services and the Department of Human Services.

Buckle up.

#RobodebtRC

Campbell so far: we (DHS) built Robodebt, they (DSS) were supposed to handle legislative change to make it legit. She wasn't across the detail of how income averaging worked but she was briefing the minister -- and there's a bunch she doesn't recall.

#RobodebtRC

Adjourned or another day.

#RobodebtRC