Thread by @rparloff

It’s Wed. morning and Day 24 of the Proud Boys trial LiveBlog starts shortly. I’ll be live-tweeting here and on Lawfare: bit.ly/3QKlKii. We’re in the middle of cooperating PB Jeremy Bertino’s direct testimony.
/1

First, I’ll show a couple video exhibits that came in yesterday. (Yesterday’s thread began here:)

https://twitter.com/rparloff/status/1628023910745735172

/2

Here’s the crowd of PBs in front of Harry’s bar in DC on 12/12/20 (the Million MAGA 2 march). You get an idea of why Oath Keepers called the PBs a “force multiplier.” When camera pans left you catch a glimpse of Harry’s.
/3

Here’s the PBs at the night rally, losing patience with police. Bertino: Move aside, let us handle it. why do you fucking protect them when they want to kill you? Another PB: You’re oath breakers. do your fuckin job.”
/4

Here’s a clip that same night of PBs burning a [Black Lives Matter] banner. (Prosecution isn’t allowed to say it’s a BLM banner, or that it was stolen from a church.) Tarrio visible (sunglasses) ~0:06 in bottom left corner. Manager at Harry's puts out fire at end.
/5

A week before J6, Tarrio posted this glorified photo of def Pezzola (text: “Lords of War #J6 #J20”), which appears to have been based on the banner burning scene.
/6

Six minutes later, Biggs posted that same photo of Pezzola (text: “Epic”).
/7

Before showing next new video, I'll show this earlier NYPost footage of Bertino’s stabbing. Even from this angle, the stabber's conduct has strong self-defense overtones ...
/8

But yesterday we saw this CCTV footage which shows (at ~1:16) a PB -- in helmet & striped sleeves -- provoking the whole incident. He shoulder-bumps and then punches the passerby who is later converged upon & stabs Bertino in that context. …
/9

Bertino testified he was never shown this CCTV footage until well after J6. The stabber was arrested Bertino believes charges were then dropped—which infuriated him at time. (Govt has left unclear whether charges really were dropped.)
/10

One thing Bertino said yesterday that I hadn’t heard before was that Tarrio ~had people planted within Antifa to tell him where they’d be.~ Small point, but it underscores PBs’ seeking-out of confrontation rather than acting in pure self-defense.
/11

ICYMI, pace of case is worrisomely slow. First day of trial was Jan 12. Jury selection started Dec 19. Defense contemplates a lengthy case. Atty Norm Pattis (Biggs) said yesterday that Biggs alone wants to call 13 witnesses. ...
/12

... We've also had some indications of jurors growing restive. Yesterday evening it appeared that Jauregui had said something at sidebar to Judge Kelly about a particular juror. After the jury left, Judge Kelly started to reassure Jauregui that he was paying close ...
/13

attention to the situation Jauregui had brought to his attention & [words to the effect that] he didn't see anything amiss and thought the person in question was just pointing at an exhibit. Jauregui protested, "Judge, he was looking right at me." Then the judge ...
/14

went back into sidebar. There had been an earlier incident in which atty Dan Hull (Biggs) protested that a juror had been making hand gestures that appeared to be pro-prosecution. (Either rooting for prosecutors or making a hurry-up motions during defense questioning.) ...
/15

... In addition there was an earlier complaint that a juror appeared to be "nodding off" and a second oblique reference by an atty that suggested the same . (Jurors not visible on media room screens.) ...
/16

Judge Kelly on the bench.

/17

Judge Kelly says govt has convinced him that almost all the exhibits it wanted to introduce thru Bertino are admissible with one trivial exception. (Overruling objections from Hernandez [Rehl].)
Now discussing defense trial subpoenas. ...
/18

... One is a trial subpoena Nick Smith (Nordean) has issued to Eddie Block, the PB videographer (in a wheelchair) visible in some of Nick Quested's videos, too. Block has moved to quash, claiming both hardship & that he'll invoke 5th Amendment anyway. The 2d was ...
/19

... filed under seal. Judge Kelly will let Smith make another filing about Block and Kelly's not yet up to speed on the sealed one. (I don't think this relates to Bigg's subpoena to Trump which probably hasn't gotten far enough for Trump to even file a motion to quash.)
/20

Norm Pattis (Biggs) now talking about the 41K hours of CCTV videos that Speaker McCarthy has allegedly released to Tucker Carlson. Pattis wants to know if govt has access to those.
AUSA McCullough: we can look into that. Not sure if any "delta" exists between what has ...
/21

already been turned over and what Speaker McCarthy has turned over.
[Govt has already made 1000s of hours of CCTV video available to defense lawyers subject to certain protective orders. Nick Smith (for Nordean) sort of condescendingly referred Pattis to that site.]
/22

Atty Sabino Jauregui (for Tarrio) asks for a sidebar.

/23

Jury now coming in.

/24

AUSA Kenerson resumes direct examination of former PB Jeremy Bertino:
K asking about New Years Eve 2020/2021.
Pezzola & another guy from NY came down to Charlotte area to deliver a commemorative shield to Tarrio (in FL) and they stopped by and visited me. friendly meeting ..
/25

... he seemed excited to meet me. The way any other brother meeting for 1st time. a genuine love there. you can just feel it.
Later I invited him to MOSD. he told me he was in scrum with guy who stabbed me. felt he was loyal. had my back. good match for the MOSD.
/26

Now showing this from 12/31.

Bertino making reference to likelihood that Tarrio would be going to jail for the banner burning. they'd heard warrant was going out.
Tarrio says "info stays here."

And now this one.
Tarrio: I'm pushing for that.

Bertino testifies Tarrio was probably referring to being arrested on J6.
Always seemed Tarrio was using media to get positive spin on the club. to build the club. Definitely going to be media in DC on J6

Stewart (blackbeard): any idea how our guys going to react to that? ... we could have a fucking riot.

bertino testifies: i agreed with that. everything was a powderkeg. anything could set it off.

Stewart: we're on razor's edge brother.

B in court: Stewart is making same point

B in court: [we had a sense we were on edge of] all-out revolution. constant talk in chats. constant videos in chats. getting sense we were at the precipice.

B in chat: just let it happen ... maybe it's the shot heard round the world & normies will fuck up cops.

/30

B in court: I was referring to the American revolution [with reference to shot heard round the world.]

K: were you only one in MOSD discussing war or revolution at that time?
no.

Now showing this one
/31

and this one

Bertino: T very influential on Parler among PBs & right-wing generally. whatever he said, pretty much everyone would follow him.

/32

Now showing this one.
The video says "Back the Yellow." means get behind PBs instead of back the blue.

/33

And this one.

/34

now showing parler post by Biggs on 1/2:
every law maker who breaks their own stupid fucking laws should be dragged out of office and hung.

Biggs' Parler posts also influential with right-wing.

/35

Bertino:
reacted with desperation when SCOTUS turned down big election-challenge case. Tarrio reacted same way. all the PBs reacted same way.
Objections from Hernandez & Smith.
Sidebar

/36

[Bertino also said that he'd considered going to DC on J6 to speak on stage, but when Trump decided to speak, all the [PB?] stages were cancelled and he decided to stay home. He was still in bad shape from the stabbing. Didn't want to march.]
/37

Kenerson talking about SCOTUS decision again not to hear challenge.
Bertino: reaction within PBs was angry. Anger ramped up. Extreme differences from before and after. no hope left [afterward]. tone was: country was over if we didn't stop this.

/38

my understanding was that on J6 the election would be certified.
K: what was your view as to what role should PBs play once SCOTUS had rejected the election challenges?
B: my belief was we had to take the reins and be the leaders that we had been building ourselves up to be. /39

we'd have to lead the people to freedom. that was in opposition to a tyrannical govt being installed as opposed to being voted in.
this was coming up in PB conversations every day. everyone felt desperate. Tarrio's tones were calculated, cold, determined. felt exact same ...
/40

way i did.
Had conversations with Nordean. exact same as mine.
[Rehl?] not a direct conversation, but he was in the chats.
Biggs?
not a direct conversation.

/41

Now seeing this one.
PNW means Pacific Northwest.
"Our guys" means PBs.
[Tarrio is Noble Lead]

Bertino was asking if police were pepper-spraying our guys.
"Hadji's" link shows police pepper-spraying patriots. protecting the antifa folks. i was pretty angry.

/42

we felt the police had switched sides at that point.
in my mind felt like everybody was on one big team and once election was called law enforcement was going to switch allegiance to be loyal to whatever govt was in place as opposed to what was constitutional.

/43

Now this one
Aaron (wolkind): our disposition toward police needs to be reevaluated.

B: i wasn't surprised by this. felt it coming. I agreed. ... everyone had turned against us. not aware of any dissent among MOSD leaders. they'd have said something if they did.

/44

I agreed with Aaron's sentiment about hiding our identities at that point.
Doxing was a problem. Law enforcement. we were putting out faces in public and our guys getting arrested & going to jail. felt we should do what antifa did. better idea. ...
/45

Stewart: we could've ran them over in DC & they wouldn't have been able to do shit.

B: that was referring to 12/12.

"Cannon kept telling me to push thru them" meant push thru the police & i refused.

I also referred to fact that if I'd stabbed 4 people that i'd be let go
/46

i wrote # fuckthepolice in contrast to typical # back the police.

Biggs reference to Zamboni rolling over police.

/47

Now this, right after PBs learn Tarrio has been arrested.

Donohoe [YutYut]: each one of us should clear our history of MOSD chat.
K: did you do that?
i believe i did.

/48

Reading Rehl's (Captain Trump) messages: yeah you've got to manually delete ...

B: i said "what a joke" because I thought it was [crazy] it took so much effort to delete chats.
I thought it was a good idea to delete chats. It's kind of why we're here. ...

/49

i thought something could be used against us for legal purposes. we could get in trouble.

Now Aaron's reference to Minecraft.
B: originally people thought it would protect you if you said that when you were going to do something illegal. we used it jokingly too.

/50

Now showing this one. Regarding "minecraft" reference here, i.e., illegal activity.
K: did Tarrio ever say that's not what MOSD is for?
sustained.
K: did Tarrio ever say this particular statement was off topic?
no.
K: Biggs?
definitely not.
K: Nordean?
objection
sidebar
/51

Giving jury a 10-minute break.

/52

Judge Kelly back on bench.
/53

AUSA Kenerson resumes direct of ex-PB Bertino.
K: did Tarrio ever tell you this is not what MOSD is about?
no.
K: Nordean, Biggs, Rehl?
no no no
K: other members of MOSD leadership?
no.

/54

Now playing this voice one about raising bail money form 12/29
K: did Tarrio ever tell you this was not what MOSD was about?
no.
Hernandez asks for sidebar.
/55

Now this one from 12/31
"I want to kick ass ... show my ball bag to fuckin antifa ... "
K: anyone at MOSD leadership say this was not that MOSD was about?
no.

/56

K: did anyone in MOSD leadership ever say this message not what MOSD is about?
not that i can recall.

/57

1/4/21
regarding: "what would they do if 1 mm patriots stormed capitol ...
John stewart: they would do nothing because could do nothing."

K: did you hear any MOSD leader discourage sentiments like those?
no.
K: did you discourage them?
no.

/58

Now a new message from MOSD-Op.
1/4/21
B: "this is where rubber meets the road" ...
i meant this is showtime. ... all other options were gone... time to make move if we were to save country.

/59

B: "hoping they remain true" -- i meant i was hoping National Guard would remain loyal to our side.

Now showing another new message.
1/4/21

Aaron: everyone should be pissed their brother was arrested on bogus charges ...

B: i was pissed. if Enrique on other side ...

/60

of political spectrum he wouldn't have been arrested.

Now this one from J5

B: i was creating new group--Boots on Ground. with enrique being arrested, there was chaos. creating new chat so everyone could get info they needed.

/61

Now a new one.
New MOSD Leaders
J6 early morning.
Aaron: i want to see thousands of normies burn that city to ash today.

B: that was DC. i agreed. felt like this was center of the corruption. i answered: "would be epic"
Aaron: "state is enemy of people"
i agreed. ...

/62

state had turned agains the people. the elites had turned against everyday americans.
I was having conversations with other PBs about J6. it was the topic, every day.
K: did you hear disagreement with your views with any MOSD leaders?
no. none at all.

/63

mood of conversations was desperation.

"fuck these commie traitors"
i was referring to democrats, bureaucrats, anyone going along with fraudulent election results.
police were part of it too.
Stewart: it's going to happen. these normies have no adrenalin control
B: let em loose

Stewart: They went too far when they arrested Henry [enrique]

now a new one: MOSD Members from J6 am
"i'm watching Ford Fishers feed (news2share) ... he is up at capital bldg & there is zero antifa presence."

B: I'm letting people know there's no danger of attack

/65

I was watching 6 or 7 live feeds. some were at stages where trump was. others were panned out across city. i was checking telegram chats to keep up.
took a screenshot. my girlfriend wanted to see.
now showing that screen capture.

/66

one bubble shows Donohoe: "oops, looks like we just stormed the capitol." (sarcastic)
now showing a scene from west plaza from Donohoe in front.
B: not surprised. PBs always led the way. normies always behind us.
12:59: B writes "form a spear"
i meant a wedge to get thru ..

/67

Then i wrote "holy fuck" because i thought we'd get into bldg. when i said 'form a spear' it was another reference to being 'tip of spear.'
Now showing B say: "fuckin do it, man. do it. let's go."
i was encouraging & excited about what might happen.

/68

then i wrote "fuck i'm so mad i'm not there" because i thought it was a revolution & i wasn't there. i was missing it.
K: what you saw in this video--was it inconsistent or consistent with other PB convos?
objection
sidebar
/69

[Here's Bertino's screengrab video, which we've been taling about. It's of his Telegram feed on J6 in real time around 1pm.]
/70

K: what you'd seen on screen--consistent or inconsistent with your discussions with MOSD leadership leading up to J6?
yeah, right up the alley of where we would be.
objection overruled.

/71

Now a new message
J6 Boots on Ground ~1pm
B: "storming the capital bldg right now! Get there."

i posted that because i wanted everyone to get to the capitol bldg because that's where everything was happening.

/72

Now this one: J6 New MOSD Members around 1pm
B: "Storming the capital right now!!"

i wanted everyone to get to the capitol bldg because that's where everything was happening. [repeating point]. so they'd know where hot spot was. to get more numbers.

/73

Now another new one:
J6 1:31pm New MOSD Members

someone: "Newsmax just said Pence declined to overturn."
B: audio message: "don't worry boys. america's taking care of it right now. "

i meant the people were going to take care of it themselves; didn't ahve to worry about pence

now another new one:
J6 1:39pm New MOSD Leadership chat
someone: Madision bldg on capitol hill is being evacuated.
John Stewart: normies stopped pushing.
Bertino: holy shit
Aaron: abahahahaha op success

/75

now another new one
J6 1:41pm Boots on Ground
Aaron: keep pushing. fuck those pigs, throw shit at them
B: god damnit i wanna be there.

I was aware police were using crowd control measures. but i wanted to be there to witness the next american revolution

/76

aaron: i might be able to come tonight. fuck it.

now another new one.
J6 1:52pm New MOSD Members
B: Yo they got it. they pushed the cops back, the cops are retreating up the stairs, they're ripping apart the construction barriers. they're getting in. ...
tears in my eyes.
/77

i was in awe and disbelief that people were doing what they said they'd do.

John Stewart says: "Accelerate!"

B explains Stewart was on MOSD "Operations" council.

/78

Now another new one:
J6 2:39 Texts between B and Tarrio
B: brother. you know we made this happen.

by 'we' i meant PBs. i meant we influenced normies enough to make them stand up and take back their country & freedom.

B: "i'm so proud of my country."
T: "I know."

/79

B: we did it
T: love you two brig
...
B: 1776 motherfucker
T: The Winter Palace.

i didn't know what he meant by that.

B: Dude. did we just influence history? [i meant PBs]
T: let's 1st see how this plays out.
B: they HAVE to certify today or it's invalid.

/80

Now a text with a screenshot of a Parler post from Tarrio: proud of my boys and proud of country.

i understood that he was proud of PBs and people who took back their freedom that day.

B: "they need to get peloton"
i meant we needed to get Nancy Pelosi. ...

/81

Now showing text to Tarrio on J6 at 3:03pm . shows pezzola breaking the window near Senate Wing Door and rioters entering.
B writes "recognize anyone??? Lmfao.
T responds: "Nopeee"

I'd been having frequent text comms with Tarrio since november. Tarrio was being sarcastic.

/82

B: I do. ... I'm so proud.
T: that looks like George Washington. Sam Adams. and Franklin.

K: at anytime, did Tarrio condemn Pezzola's actions to you?
no.

/83

K: when you said "we made this happen" did Tarrio ever ask you what you meant?
no.

we felt like, i felt like country was under attack from outside entities. people were standing up for themselves, trying to save country, having it ripped away from us. we were happy.

/84

Jury being excused for lunch.

/85

Everyone being excused till 1:30pm

/86

While we're on break, I'll just mention that there was a new message in there that was pretty striking but which I couldn't take down very completely at the time. I'll get it tonight and share it tomorrow. It was a 1/4/21 message in MOSD-Op where Bertino & another PB ...
/87

are discussing J6 -- the "rubber meets the road" conversation I noted above -- and they're wondering which side the National Guard will be loyal too. Conveys what they thought was happening on J6. Of course, what we haven't heard--like in the Oath Keepers cases--is any ...
/88

concrete tactical plan about how PBs planned to keep Trump in power on J6. I mean to say, that was missing from the OKs cases, too, but it didn't matter in the end. The overall strategic plan--to use force to keep Trump in power--sufficed, even without a tactical plan.
/89

Judge Kelly back on bench.

/90

AUSA Kenerson continues direct of ex-PB Bertino.
K eliciting that Bertino's feeling of patriotism on J6 began to wane that evening.

began to feel it was complete waste of time and failure.

/91

now seeing a new message. J6 at 4:25 New MOSD Members
someone: trump just told everyone to go home now. wtf?
Bertino: fuck that.

we weren't there for him. we were there for ourselves.

/92

B: "don't be pushed out we are in the cusp of saving our nation"
they way i felt in the moment, if we gave that bldg up we were giving up our country.

/93

new message:
J6 6:07pm New MOSD Leaders chat
Bertino: we failed. the house is meeting again.

i meant the revolution had failed. the house was going to go on and certify the election.

'that woman died for nothing'
referring to ashli babbitt's death. they'd given up all ..

/94

the ground they'd gained by leaving the bldg.

now another:
J6 6:25pm New MOSD Members
[someone] James Mason was right about siege. if you're gonna do it, go all the way. goall the fucking way.
[someone else] once you take that first step, don't understand why anyone
/95

would lack conviction to take 2d step.
Bertino: "exactly. today was a disgrace. when they walked away."
[someone] i wouldn't say a total disgrace ... i would say it's a good start. ... put fear of god in fucking swamp creatures up there on capitol hill. ...
/96

Bertino: "half measures mean nothing. fuck fear. they need to be hung."

i meant going halfway into capitol and then relinquishing did nothing and created lot of problems for people that went in there.

/97

Hernandez (for Rehl) wants another sidebar. [Hernandez has been objecting more than anyone else throughout the last 2 days. She has been overruled virtually every time.]

/98

now seeing: J6 7:32pm New MOSD Leaders
Bertino: "good. i hope their eyes burn forever. ... fuck em. i hope they lose their fucking eyesight over it. ... we need fucking war. we need to take it back. ... judge, jury, executioner, we need to fucking hang traitors. ...
/99

John Stewart: "are you ready to go full fash?"

B: that means going full fascist.

/100

now a new one:
J6 at 9:42pm New MOSD Members
Bertino: man, listen it's like this ... we had the power in our hands and we gave it back to em. ... they're gonna certify joe biden ... may even fucking invoke 25th amendment. ... they shot & killed a woman today ...

/101

her fucking life was lost for nothing. for people to take selfies in pelosi's office. ...
K: did Tarrio ever reach out and say you took that a little too far?
never
K: any other PB?
never.

/102

new one:
J7 9:22am New MOSD Leaders
[scrolling down]
B: "there was definitely not enough planning for this really."

we were too busy trying to set up MOSD as chapter to focus on that aspect of it.

/103

Stewart: "the normies, they stopped 25% of the way in. the fucking bldg should still be occupied now. they shouldhave cops stuck inside that bldg. ... they want us to do it for them. And PBs can't bear this burden. too big for us alone.
B: "everything you said x 10000000"
/104

the burden was taking back the power for the people.

now another:
J8 New MOSD Leaders
Aaron: they got Nick.

Nich ochs is one of Elders
B: "fuck!!"

i like Nick. i was very upset at that.

Stewart: "it's probably time to clean up the chats from DC. ..."

/105

Stwart: "we don't need the boots on the ground one."
B: "I left it and i can't delete it. it wouldn't allow me to delete for some reason."

/106

J13 New MOSD Leaders
B: who owns this chat?
Rehl: Donohoe owns it
Donohoe: want me to nuke it?
B: yes.
[Donohoe leaves the group]
Stewart: that didn't nuke it lol

after that i asked Donohoe to come back and nuke it because he didn't do it right first time.

/107

New one
J20 MOSD Leaders - Jan 9
Nordean: everyone needs to just shut the fuck up. way too many videos and pictures and words being shared.
Rehl: exactly
B: yes.

/108

Kenerson now going to show excerpts from a podcast Bertino broadcast evening of J6. (audio & video)

[hard to make out from media room]
"... we gave it right back ... half measures do nothing"

B: going half way through a revolution doesn't get you a revolution.

/109

"... we lost a 14-yr veteran ... shot in throat by [pigs?] protecting [congressmen] ... they escalated."

i meant law enforcement escalated.

"... if we don't have a voice in the laws, do those laws apply to us?"

we didn't feel like our input is taken into account ...

/110

"... 1776"

i meant the revolution. American revolution.

"my really good friend Enrique"

i meant Enrique Tarrio.

"... fear is good"

govt should fear the people, not people fearing the govt. that view was pretty much shared by all the people in my inner circle.

/111

felt like the govt had been screwing with us for years and the term we used in the club: FAFO [fuck around and find out]--really fit there. they finally found out what a bunch of pissed off patriots could do.

/112

... i was saying that maybe if there had been some leadership on the scene inside the capitol maybe things wouldve been different and we wouldn't have given up.

Kenerson pointing out all the PB laurels in the podcast. on the wall, on his clothing.

/113

K eliciting that Bertino sometimes said violent things in chats.

i regret it.

K eliciting that he went to Miami after J6 and saw Tarrio & others.
K: did you talk with Tarrio about what he would've done if he had been there?
Objection (by Hernandez, perhaps others)
Sidebar/114

K: when did you go to Miami?
week or 2 after J6
K: what did Tarrio tell you
B: he would've said, go, go, go. (making motion with his hand, to go forward.)

K eliciting that there was no specific plan to storm the capitol.

/115

K: if you didn't have a plan to storm the capitol, why did you plead guilty to conspiracy?
i pleaded guilty because there doesn't have to be a specific plan and i--
Judge: sustained as to a legal conclusion and--let's have a sidebar.

/116

K: in the leadup to J6 do you have any reason to believe that other leaders of MOSD felt differently than you did ?
no. i was never told of everyone feeling different. everyone agreed with pretty much every sentiment i spit out.

/117

i felt pretty close to most of the other leaders of MOSD. shared a brotherhood. ... esp those of us in leadership. men looked up to us. we looked up to each other. had each other's backs. wouldve taken a bullet for the other person. when i was stabbed the way everyone ...

/118

looked out for me. countless things we'd all been involved in together. drama, trauma. an arrest ... always something that brought us together.
K: feel like you could speak freely among them?
yes. felt they wouldn't judge me. and wouldn't disagree. ...

/119

[overruling almost every lawyer on almost ever question now]
K: did you need to have explicit discussions of things all the time?
no.
Pattis (Biggs) wants sidebar.

/120

Giving jury a break now. Attys stay.

/121

AUSA Kenerson is trying to establish that the MOSD Leaders had the closeness necessary to form unspoken agreements. Judge thinks that's legitimate question. Smith (Nordean) is contesting that and Hernandez has her hand up to argue next ...
/122

Pattis (Biggs) now saying this line of questioning is like occult evidence in the Salem witch trials. Suppose i go to the cafeteria and splurge on cookies & tell the cashier i have an implicit agreement with the judge to buy cookies; you gonna pay for those cookies?
/123

Judge thinks that analogy in inapt. ...

/124

After Hernandez takes lengthy second bite of apple, judge overrules all the objections and orders 10-min break for everyone.
/125

Judge Kelly is back.
Now he's changed his mind about the question that prompted all the objections--about whether MOSD Leaders had such a close relationship that they could reach unspoken agreements. He's going to sustain the objection.
Now bringing in jury.

/126

AUSA Kenerson resuming direct of ex-PB Bertino.
K: what led you to feel close to MOSD leaders?
they took care of me when i was hurt. built a stronger bond.
objection by hernandez overruled.
K: how often would you participate in MOSD discussions?
every day.

/127

K: on J6 did you believe you had reached agreement about J6?
yes. we had to do anything nec to save the country.
K: why do you believe you'd reached an agreement?
the constant conversations in MOSD chats. the lack of any disagreement with that. ton of things being said.

/128

His home searched sometime in 2022. he was interviewed by FBI.
K: were you forthcoming in that 1st interview with fbi?
no. wanted to protect [my friends.]
K: did you ever engage in doxing?
yes. it was a tactic used by both sides. ... i regret it.

/129

K elicits that he pleaded guilty in October 2022.

Earlier, when his home was searched he had firearms. Unlawful because he had a 2004 felony conviction.

In October 2022 he pleaded guilty.
Sidebar
(Plea agreement they're about to go over is below)
bit.ly/3xryfGW

/130

K eliciting he pleaded guilty to seditious conspiracy and unlawful possession of firearm.
K eliciting his responsibilities under his cooperation agreement.
K: what's your layman's understanding of that?
must be fully & truthfully honest. give govt whatever info i have ...
/131

K: what are you hoping to get out of this plea agreement?
i understood i committed the crimes and didn't make any sense to fight.
objection sustained.
i'd hope cooperation would help [me].
no promises. judge decides sentence.

/132

K: what's your understanding of a "5k"?
basically, the govt gets to decide they'll file a 5k motion on my behalf which would possibly lead to a reduction of sentence. If filed, Judge Kelly would decide whether to grant that.
K elicits that the outcome of this case ...

/133

has nothing to do with whether they'll file a 5K statement. (that's his understanding.)
AUSA Kenerson done.

sidebar

/134

Nick Smith (Nordean) begins cross:
S: before your testimony you had encounters with govt?
yes
S: how many?
don't recall
S: over six?
probably
S: involved working on your testimony?
i practiced a little bit of testimony yes

/135

S establishing that's it's a crime to give false info to FBI and that his interviews were recorded and provided to defense.
S: you could be prosecuted for each false statement you gave to FBI, right?
assume so.
S now talking about the firearms in his home.

/136

S establishes that his 2004 felony was reckless endangerment in 1st degree.
S: met with FBI agent in a car?
they grabbed me at work, put me in car, asked me some questions, then i left to get an atty.
S: agents linked your exposure to the firearms violations to what you
/137

might tell them about J6?
don't remember that.
S now showing him the 1776 Returns document.
S: you were shown that by fbi agents after seizure of your guns?
yes
S: they told you Tarrio created this plan?
don't remember
S wants to play excerpt from FBI interview ...
sidebar
/138

S showing B a transcript excerpt from March 2022 interview.
S: does that refresh your recollection?
i see that they did.
S: did that change your opinion about what might have happened?
the document itself changed my opinion.
i believe it resembled something that happened./139

S: and you indicated that your opinion of Tarrio had changed after a result?
[yes]
S now showing him another excerpt.
i definitely didn't know anything about it. hadn't known what Winter Palace meant.
S: you told FBI agent you were upset ...
/140

... that your good friend Tarrio wouldn't bring you in on his 1776 plan?
objection sidebar
/141

S: after you were shown this document, you told the agent that that changed your opinion about what happened on J6?
i don't remember that part. just remember fact he had it.
S: agents told you Tarrio created it and you said wow, right?
yes.
/142

now another sidebar
S: on J6 you anticipated an all-out revolution?
i don't know if that's exactly the words.
S: sir this isn't a game.
i said once it started happening i was happy about it happening.
S: you don't recall saying you anticipated a revolution about an hour ago?/143

i used the term a lot. don't recall exact comment.
S: what are they?
that we were looking forward to it. only option left.
S: you said PBs should be considered tip of the spear?
yes.
S: you said after SCOTUS refused to overturn election people grew desperate?
yes

/144

S: it was go time you said?
yes
S: wanted DC to be burned to ash?
yes
S: is the revolution consistent with what happened J6?
no. that's not a revolution.
S: you were asked if chaos on phone was consistent with your convos with MOSD leaders?
yes. with us being at front lines
/145

S: have you ever appeared in court that you entered into an agreement to use force to prevent execution of a law on J6?
yes
S: accurate?
yes
S: prior to J6 you anticipated violence on J6?
yes
S: you've assured FBI agents that all of things things you just said are not true, right

i dont know, i'd have to look line by line.
S: i'm going to help you do that.
S: you told FBI ... were you aware PBs were going to go to capitol? you said no, they'd meet at monument and go to trump speech?
if it's in there, that's what i said.
S now playing that excerpt

/147

B: statement wasn't fully true. we were supposed to be at monument and the rest of the plan was to be laid out there. i don't even if there was a plan the reason we were there was to stop the certification. i don't know if it was the specific plan.
/148

S: you dont know any plan except going to wash mon on J6?
i don't know the exact plan. i know the [goal], i didn't know how it was going to get done.
S: on 3/18/22 you told FBI --
Judge wants a sidebar

/149

S: do you telling recall agents that ... what was supposed to happen that day was a peaceful protest?
yes
S now playing the excerpt.
S: you recall saying that?
now i do.
S: was that true?
no.

/150

S now talking about Tarrio's arrest & release on J4 and J5. you said "there was no rhyme or reason at that point. ... no plan or anything only thing i knew was to meet at monument"?
yes
S now playing that excerpt.
S: Is it true?
yeah, because enrique was arrested.

/151

S: how can have an agreement without a plan.
the plan is the step-by-step way you're gonna get it done.
S: those telegram chats, in your view, reveal agreement without a plan to forcibly stop execution of laws, right?
yes

/152

S: did you tell FBI on 6/9/22 ... that if PBs had secret plans they obviously weren't going to tell them in the Telegram chats?
i don't remember
S now playing excerpt
i did say that.
S: is it true?
yes, they didn't put it directly in the chat.

/153

S: you believe your agreement to use force was reflected in the telegram chats?
yes.
S: did you lie on multiple occasions with FBI?
i think i was a lot less honest in first than in last ones.
S: On 6/9/22 you said --
objection
sidebar

/154

S now playing an excerpt:
S: on 6/9/22 you say "i dont have any direct info on what they were planning"?
i think i said i don't have any direct info on where they were planning on going.
S: so agreement to use force to stop electoral college vote, but you don't know where?
/155

S: the agreement is to stop something that's taking place at the capitol. would that have happened at dunkin donuts?
you didn't have to have a plan to know what the goal was.
[Pattis (for Biggs) is smiling broadly as if Bertino's testimony is absurd.]

/156

S: so agreement you pleaded guilty to involved nobody going into the capitol?
i didn't say that. i didn't need to know plan to know everybody had exact same role. i didn't know how the objective was supposed to be taken care of. [Jauregui (Tarrio) smiling broadly too]

/157

S: but you did know the plan. the plan was Tarrio was going to be speaking, and a small group of guys was going to protect him from stage to stage.
that was the original plan before everything went south. once i was. not going to DC i was not in on planning anymore.
/158

S: you're saying that until J4 the plan was that a small group of guys would go and protect Tarrio as he gave a speech?
no. it was when Trump announced he'd be giving a speech.
S now playing excerpt.
S: that's the one plan you're aware of?
yes.

/159

S: did you say I thought we were just making stupid social media posts and [march]?
can't remember.
S playing excerpt.
S: remember saying that?
yes
AUSA Kenerson asks for sidebar

/160

Jury done for today. Attys stay.

/161

They're discussing whether the statements Smith wants to play are consistent or inconsistent with Bertino's testimony. Smith can only play *inconsistent* statements. They think he's trying to play consistent statements for other purposes. ...
/162

Mainly Smith wants jury to hear his reaction--"wow!"-- when FBI agents falsely told him that the 1776 Returns document was created by Tarrio. But Bertino has admitted in his testimony that he was shocked when agents told him that.
/163

AUSA McCullough asks to see clips Smith plans to use in advance so that we don't limp from sidebar to sidebar. Smith objects. But Judge, "to manage the trial," is going to ask that alleged prior inconsistent statements be shown to govt in advance. Smith protests "asymmetry."
/164

Smith: This is extremely burdensome. This is not fair.
Now Hernandez is objecting on 6th Amendment grounds. Defense does not have to preview its cross with govt.
Judge: i've bent over backwards to be fair. this is an attempt to manage this process. Mr. Smith, you ...
/165

have been trying to troll through the witness's prior statements without regard to whether they are truly inconsistent.
i need to do far more here, frankly, to make the trains run on time.
We're done. Hope to see you tomorrow morning.
/166-end