Thread by @The280Times

#CanadaDisabilityBenefit #C22 #CDBby23 - #ODSP #AISH #CPPD

1st Session of Senate Committee studying if they'll be suggesting amendments - March 22 2023

(Thread will go active when the stream does. - Will pause if issues come up IRL, will resume asap) 1/
senparlvu.parl.gc.ca/Harmony/en/Pow…

Feed begins with it's about to begin message at 4:03pm

2/

Sen Omidvar starts by welcoming everyone and invites other committee Senators to introduce themselves.
(i'm not going to recap them announcing themselves)

3/

Carla is in the first panel.
Sen Omidvar notes if Carla has to participate in a vote, they will pause for her then resume after.

Krista Wilcox and one other is also joining.
(missed his name, will get it later)

4/

Carla is happy to be there.
Thanks the Senate for what they do..

Carla thanks the senate for the members who sent her a letter urging her to hurry.

5/

Carla begins to read a speech which sounds similar (to start) as her HUMA opening speech.

providing stats.. (just like last time)

6/

Notes the ongoing and history discrimination against Disabled people.

(yup.. this sounds identical to her HUMA speech)
((citing the "when people reach 65 they're happy because they get OAS/GIS" ))

7/

Claims she's working with the community to create the benefit.

8/

A FPT frame work has been agreed to.. apparently..

9/

"It is supplemental social assistance"

10/

lists "Next steps"

Regulatory phase.
additional agreements,
interaction discovery and mitigation.

concluded her talk, JUST as a vote in the HOC was called - meeting PAUSED. WILL resume momentarily.

11/

Sen Omidvar notes that everyone wants to ask Carla questions. All questions limited to 4 minutes.

Sen Omidvar thanks Carla and asks "are you open to improvements to the bill ?"

Carla "of course".
"I welcome suggestions"

12/

Sen Bovey "you've cited the concern of clawbacks and the need to retain additional services.."

"Have the provinces agreed not to claw back, because the CERB clawbacks in my province were horrible"

13/

Carla "This is a very different benefit than CERB so it's being treated differently"

"The closer it gets to being considered employment income, the closer it gets to being clawed back" CERB was income replacement, so many clawed it.

(Cites CCB and how that is treated fine)
14/

Sen Bovey "if there was an amendment which.. essentially states that clawbacks are banned.. would you object to that ?"

Carla "I'm not sure if we legally CAN ban another jurisdiction in that way, that's why we're negotiating"
(words to that effect)

15/

Sen Seidman "I wanted to ask about clawbacks"
(as well) "including private insurance".

"I'm wondering what communication you may have had with provinces and private insurance.. more detail ?"

Carla - We've had discussions with private insurance companies which..
16/

(Carla Continued)
..Have gone well. They seem open and understanding to the intention of the benefit.

"I'm not terribly concerned. not top of my list of worries"

Sen Seidman asks question from David Lepphrophski (sorry, can't spell your name by memory).. 17/

That question is (basically) "will the benefit start in provinces where agreements are made, even if other provinces do not or have not made agreements yet ?"

Carla: "This will be a direct payment monthly to individuals, this will happen regardless if there is an MOU or not" 18/

"..with those provinces or territories"

"in fact ideally those agreements would predate the first payment, but there is NO world where those people wouldn't get paid because we don't have an agreement with that province or territory yet"

"I don't want THAT scenario because" 19/

"..I don't want to risk that it would get clawed back.. but everyone can be assured that we won't allow it to be held hostage."

Session pauses again.
I have pause buffer, so I'm skipping past the pause :)
20/

Sen Osler asks questions regarding clause 9.
"Why would a benefit that isn't income be subject to garnishment ?" (under the family benefits act, i believe she's referring to)

"why not align the issue of garnishment to the provincial jurisdiction of the recipient ?" 21/

Carla (and her aids)
(Essentially) "Because it's Federal and that's what we do"

Sen Osler "C22 has a 1 year coming into force provision" "has your department worked on eligibility regulations internally to speed up this process ?"

22/

"When can Canadians expect to begin receiving Benefits ?"

Carla : "Let me answer the second one first.. the time line as we are --predicting-- it" "assuming day one after royal assent" (cites different things) "we expect a 12 month regulatory phase.." so after that. 23/

The Chair differs the unanswered questions to the second panel and is moving forward with Sen Cotter..

What the hell ?
Sen Cotter cites receiving a letter from 800 individuals and 238 orgs and experts claiming to represent the community, urging that the senate rubber stamp.

24/

Senator Cotter then asks for more details on the regulation phase and why it's better then legislation.

Carla promises it'll be easier with regulation and promises and open and transparent process.

cites that she is obligated to report regularly (because of a huma clause) 25/

Carla states she looks forward to rolling up her sleeves with the community.

(Holding my breath)

[[me : pausing for 4 minutes brb]] 26/

Sen Moodie is asking about the role of Doctors in applying (like with other federal benefits within this nature) ?

will the process be adjusted for C22 ?

Carla "Good Question" cites they've expanded the number and type of people who can fill out a dtc application AND.. 27/

cites there have been discussions with Prov / Terr / about a joint application method, where if you apply for a provincial benefit, it applies for the CDB as well..

access to a doctor is a concern for us and.. ya have to pay for a DTC form so this is a concern for us..

28/

(Carla Continued) .. as that is a barrier as well.
So we are looking for anyway to reduce these barriers..

cites several ideas on how this may be worked around.

Sen Moodie "will the regulatory consults include medical professions ?"

Carla "oh yes"

29/

Senator "Lets Give MAiD for everyone !" Kutcher :

Thanks Carla for being there.
"can you share with us what work / discussions have taken place with P/T"

Carla "oh so much work from the get go, it started with an F/P/T conference" (Twitter search: hellmouth summit) 30/

(Carla Cont) We've created an FPT work plan which every province and territory have signed on to and agree with, are participating in to check for potential conflicts and work arounds..

Krista Wilcox "we've built a micro simulation system with FPT to simulate how it'll work" 31/

Krista Wilcox : 6 provinces have already provided information to stats can for interaction checks..

-

Sen Petitclerc : one of my concerns through the consults.. what have you heard about the importance regarding it being an individual benefit, not family based ? 32/

Carla: This is a really important conversation which is close to the hearts of the community, one I feel is best decided through the reg phase as each province calculates these things in different ways.

(cites several conflicting valid ways in which things are calculated) 33/

Senator Bernard :

nope..

yes..

Carla saw the light on in front of someone who had just asked two questions and went to answer the second.. but the chair pushed their second question to next round, called Senator Bernard..

Carla laughed and said "Blind person moment"
34/

Senator Bernard : "Actually, my question has to do with invisibility" (The room laughs) [it was funny]

citing work she's done with African Canadian Nova Scotians and from reading.. "how have issues race equity and intersectionality been addressed ?"

35/

Carla : we are taking intersectional lenses in to account.. (cites several sources they've consulted and several other actions they've taken including a racialized round table)

Sen Bernard : please remember when we look at these issues across the country, they vary wildly 36/

Sen Dasko has Eligibility questions..

notes that there are both Financial and medical Eligibility criteria and wants to know what definition is used or will there be NEW definitions ?

The notions of disability is a social construct so how does that impact the definition.. ? 37/

Carla states that the definition was created based on the CRPD and it was used in the ACA. The ACA Definition will be used for the CDB, this was done during HUMA. (I remember that)

The reality right now is we don't have a list or a bucket of conditions which will be able..

38/

to access the benefit.
(then cites what they did with the $600 benefit)

Time ran out for the question (she talked a bunch, hard to recap -exacts- in a single pass)

Sen Burey : recognizing that a benefit amount has not been calculated yet, what has the government.. 39/

Sen Burey: projected the total cost of the program to cost annually ? - has the parliamentary budget office been involved in the process yet ? and what are the potential returns on this investment ? 40/

Carla : Thanks the Senator for seeing this as an investment because Disabled people are worth investing in and we are missing out on so much talent.
(short version of what she said)

We've worked with the PBO on the methodology but not the specifics because we don't have the 41/

(Carla Continues) ..the numbers of the people who could be receiving it yet, because we're still interconnecting FPT wise to see who could get what and what interacts with what.. (essentially)

Compares the situation to the OAS / GIS Model..
(in more specifics this time..)

42/

Carla: I See the provinces / territories as the "OAS" in the equation and we are the GIS equivalent.

(Essentially and summarized her words sounds like her goal is to reach the poverty line per region.. MBM style.)

They'll have program cost numbers soon.. but not yet 43/

Carla: "i'm not scooping the finance minister.."
(many people laughing) "I gotta be careful talking about someone elses job, 5 days before they drop the budget lol"

Sen Omidvar relays a question from Sen McPhedran who is unable to participate today..

44/

Sen Omidvar : why do you feel that in comparison to the OAS or the EI act, why is there no codified process of appeal ?

Carla : There WILL be an appeals process, 100% in the regulation. every program has one. this will too.

I believe Carla is being dismissed..
45/

Wow, I'm 45 minutes behind..
I'm gonna be 50.. taking a minute break.

lol, they are talking SO fast and lots of nitty gritty, useless nitty gritty I won't want to incorporate every single thing and waste -your- time.

Second hour starts in a moment
46/

Second Hour Start :
(hopefully I can catch up a bit.. wanted to be as close as precise as I could be with Carla)

Introducing all the people participating..

Len is speaking now.
(March of Dimes)

47/

Len cites the urgent need for the benefit.

"This is an emergency for us. CERB was an emergency for the rest of the country, this is for us. we've been in deep poverty for a long time"

The CDB is a long term solution to a long term problem.
Cites need for community creation.
48/

Sounds like Len doesn't want amendments.

states he hopes the minister completes the regulation process in under a year.

States the MOD's involvement in helping to create the application process.. (ease, equitable, ect)

49/

cites different things they are doing to help in the creation process.

Krista Carr now begins her 5 minutes.
(She was present for HUMA as well)

talks about inclusion canada.
(lots of non consequential back patting & recounting and re-recounting on the need for the benefit) 50/

Undoubtedly, Ms Carr's recommendation will also be a rubber stamp. (Passed without amendment)

cites that 73% of persons with intellectual disabilities are living in poverty.

urges Senators to prioritize the passing of this benefit.
notes the desire for amendments.
51/

states her belief it shouldn't be, because we'll all get to help in the creation.

Because historically, the government has REALLY given a crap what the community says.. right ? /Sarcastic

52/

Ms Eaton from CMHA has her five minutes..

States her concerns for the legislation, isn't thrilled with the pure regulation creation.

Wants :
Timelines amended in.
10 months max for regulation, 1 year max (included) for payment to start.

Regarding Claw backs..

Wants an explicit instruction placed in the legislation stating no claw backs.

Adequacy : Will it keep pace with inflation ?
C22 is not index, though there is the recommendation that the GOC consider the official poverty line.

Wants guarantee of indexing.

54/

Eligibility: wants wording added which acknowledges different types and recurrence patterns of different disabilities.

Now she's going off script engaging on other things she wants. good things, but not CDB.

55/

Sen Bovey for March of Dimes : states how she's been told how important the portability of the benefit is.. how it can cross provincial lines..

Can you tell us more about this ?

MOD Len : We've seen people having to shuffle around Canada to get the services they need

56/

MOD Len : The CDB can help bring that consistency.

Sen Bovey to Ms Eaton: Can you send in what you think would be proper amendments to deal with clawbacks ?

Eaton : Yes

Sen Seidman cites how the Senate has made great and important changes to the ACA and didn't slow it..
57/

Sen Seidman - notes / cites past engagement regarding individual or family based financial provisions and asks MOD their thoughts.

MOD Amanda says they believe that individual based payments is the only realistic way to do do this
58/

MOD Amanda cited domestic violence concerns.

Sen Osler to all: notes that after the first year (3rd and 5th) after it comes in to force, that there would be a review. What aspects of the benefit, should be included in the reviews ?

59/

MOD Len : we would need financial markers. we would need to find out how many people have actually been helped by this thing, because that's the whole point.

Ms Eaton : (states similar)

Krista Carr : How easily are people accessing it ?
are people able to phase in and out 60/

Carr continued: Pending their employment status ?

Sen Petitclerc (asking all witnesses to provide an answer) : were you all apart of the consultations on C22 which Minister Qualtrough stated took place & to what extent ?

MOD Amanda : we've been involved for the last 2 years 61/

MOD Amanda : We're confident in Carla's promise for Co-creation. "really very confident it will be created with the community"

Chair WAVES OFF Krista Carr as her mic sucks and they can't translate. - asks that she send her answer in writing.

Ms Eaton : we were not consulted 62/

Ms Eaton : which is concerning considering how many people with mental illness would be included in receiving the benefit.

Chair tried to get Carr functional, didn't work.

Sen Cotter rambled and everyone forgot what he was asking.

Sen Cotter recaps and asks..

63/

Sen Cotter asks if there would be help for people to fill out any application process that may arise from the benefit ?

MOD Len : oh yeah, we've been doing thing.. we will do things. The CRA has been working on making the application process easy / easier.

64/

MOD Len : if people have to pay to apply to this, we've failed.

CMHA Eaton : does help as best it can, but some people are falling through the cracks.

Sen Kutcher: Do you think it's important the voices of persons with Mental conditions be heard in the reg. phase ? AND
65/

Second question - regarding episodic illnesses. can you please elaborate on them.

Ms Eaton : first question, there has been stigma for years regarding this, so yes.. they have a great deal to contribute and they need to have their voice at the table.

Re second question 66/

Ms Eaton cites different situations where conditions can click in and click out, where medications work.. and don't work after a while. so it's important that this be considered.

Sen Dasko : What can be done to raise awareness about the CDB when it comes out ? 67/

MOD Len : we've been holding focus groups, we have some ideas in our submission to you.

Grass roots organizations can be a big help.
we're gathering income for an increased campaign of outreach to help people learn more about all the different benefits around the country.
68/

Ms Eaton : cites the desire for automatic enrollment via income tax.

Senator Bernard notes the challenges, surrounding intersectionality in gaining benefits. do any of your organizations keep metrics regarding the cross sections ?

MOD Amanda : Not yet, but we're new in this 69/

MOD Amanda: and we're trying to add it in to our future data gathering to help in our role in the creation of the benefit.

Ms Eaton : we do not collect that data in all of our CMHA locations, but we do see how it is an area of concern and we have to work harder in outreach. 70/

Sen Moodie talks about tax simplification to make it easier for more disabled people to potentially access the cdb.. what does it look like in Denmark and Spain ?

Ms Eaton : No idea. not my area of expertise

MOD Amanda : " I think the US is doing proactive tax filings.." 71/

MOD Amanda: "I don't see why we can't / aren't doing that here.."

Sen Burey : notes the shadows of the pandemic..
"how are the people who are being left behind now, going to be brought to the table in this ?"

MOD Len : there is an onus on the government to ensure we can 72/

MOD Len : reach everyone we should be. we need to be working in collaboration with the government, we can't do this alone.

Ms Eaton CHMA : we have deep feelers in to communities who would be prime candidates to help participate in this work.

73/

Sen Omidvar has last question..

Wants to explore the question of assests..
"how will that onion be peeled ?"

MOD Len : there is nothing in the legislation about that in anyway. nothing which speaks to the issue.

CMHA Ms Eaton : It should be income tested, not means tested 74/

Eaton : There are models such as a Henson's trust which could be a model for this work.

Chair thanks participants for their assistance.
Chair confirms next meeting tomorrow.
Today's meeting is concluded.

75/75