This afternoon's hearing at the #SpyCopsInquiry is about to start....
there will be a 10-minute delay on the 'live' transcript feed - see
Today we are hearing from former spycop HN326, who used the cover name 'Doug' or 'Douglas Edwards'.
He has already provided two witness statements to the Inquiry, in 2018, and a further relating to photographs, in 2019.
He has already provided two witness statements to the Inquiry, in 2018, and a further relating to photographs, in 2019.
He was not given any training about the groups that Special Branch was interested in, or the maning of the word 'subversion'. He was only in Special Branch for a few months before his Detective Inspector (Saunders) invited him to join the new Squad.
It was so secretive that he had no idea what he was being asked to join.
While he was part of the SDS he understood that his job was to look at the”different left wing groups that were fomenting trouble on the streets”
While he was part of the SDS he understood that his job was to look at the”different left wing groups that were fomenting trouble on the streets”
Warner said “that sounds like public order” and asked if he was collecting information to work out if the groups were 'subversive' or not.
“You needed to identify people and try and understand what their political beliefs were”
HN326 pointed out that there were all sorts of rivalries in political groups (he said the Trotskyites and anarchists were “bent on causing violence”).
HN326 pointed out that there were all sorts of rivalries in political groups (he said the Trotskyites and anarchists were “bent on causing violence”).
Was he given any guidance about writing Special Branch reports?
"They were sent to the management, who would then 'carve it up' - you know send it back for a rewrite or a retype or whatever”
"They were sent to the management, who would then 'carve it up' - you know send it back for a rewrite or a retype or whatever”
He was still on probation within Special Branch (for that first year)
He recalls “you had to do what you were told in those days”
He recalls “you had to do what you were told in those days”
He worked in the 'vetting office' – later in his career - primarily this was security vetting, of new recruits to the police, members of SB itself etc, done in conjunction with the security services...
They sent the completed from off to the security service who “would come back and tell us if they considered somebody a security risk”.
The SDS was kept very secret.
Gathering intelligence to be put on file was a normal Special Branch duty.
Gathering intelligence to be put on file was a normal Special Branch duty.
It was probably DI Saunders and the Chief Inspector (Dixon) who told the #spycops not to break the law.
“You couldn't go into a squat for instance”
Warner: Could you go to a meeting about a squat being organised, but not into the squat itself?
HN326: “It was very difficult!"
“You couldn't go into a squat for instance”
Warner: Could you go to a meeting about a squat being organised, but not into the squat itself?
HN326: “It was very difficult!"
Were you given any advice about 'fieldcraft'?
"You had to play it by ear"
"You had to play it by ear"
“The man in charge wanted me to look at an anarchist group.
I was told that the way to do this was to go to Piccadilly Circus and sit there....
but it was a load of rubbish, you know when I'd done that for a few nights I thought 'what am I wasting my time for?”'
I was told that the way to do this was to go to Piccadilly Circus and sit there....
but it was a load of rubbish, you know when I'd done that for a few nights I thought 'what am I wasting my time for?”'
N326 confrimed that he knew Roy Creamer, "an intellectual and knowledgable man about left-wing affairs"
HN326 does not recall a specific 'political briefing' but remembers being told to join the Independent Labour Party (ILP) as this would give him a “handle to swing”
HN326 does not recall a specific 'political briefing' but remembers being told to join the Independent Labour Party (ILP) as this would give him a “handle to swing”
Does he recall who gave him the Piccadilly Circus advice?
It was HN325
It was HN325
His statement describes visiting
the place where Freedom was published, “somewhere in the East End”.
the place where Freedom was published, “somewhere in the East End”.
We were shown a report that refers to a leaflet being printed by Freedom.
This was about the 'East London libertarians' who wanted to occupy council houses for homeless families.
“The fear was I couldn't squat...
...so I couldn't be a full particpiant in something like that"
This was about the 'East London libertarians' who wanted to occupy council houses for homeless families.
“The fear was I couldn't squat...
...so I couldn't be a full particpiant in something like that"
One group he was sent to spy on:
Three of the West Ham anarchists were teenagers
“They were youngsters, that's right”, he admitted.
The oldest was 21. HN326 was older than them.
Three of the West Ham anarchists were teenagers
“They were youngsters, that's right”, he admitted.
The oldest was 21. HN326 was older than them.
A demo at the South African Embassy was described:
"It got a bit tasty – smashing windows and all that"
"It got a bit tasty – smashing windows and all that"
He said the West Ham group committed some minor criminal damage and graffitti - “just making a nuisance of themselves locally” – and this was covered in the local press
Did he do anything else with them, besides meetings, demos and trips to the pub?
And why did he stop spying on them
He stopped infiltrating the West Ham anarchists “because they weren't very active, unlike some of the other groups”
And why did he stop spying on them
He stopped infiltrating the West Ham anarchists “because they weren't very active, unlike some of the other groups”
He also attended meetings and demos with the ILP
He agreed that Peter Francis' description of the early SDS officers as 'shallow paddlers' was “an apt description”.
He agreed that Peter Francis' description of the early SDS officers as 'shallow paddlers' was “an apt description”.
The ILP were described as “quite left wing, pleasant, sociable, wrapped up in a world of intellectual Marxism”
He mentioned a punch-up in a pub between his group (the ILP) and some other left-wing faction (he thinks it might have been the International Socialists but wasn't clear)
Phil Saunders and Riby Wilson watched the violence from a car on the other side of the street – told him they'd have come to his aid if he needed it but he's not sure they really would have done.
[luckily for HN326 neither of these men's names are being kept secret by the @ucpinquiry so he hasn't breached any restriction orders yet]
@ucpinquiry How can a demonstration possibly 'undermine parliamentary democracy'?
He found this question hard to answer and admitted that he might have “used the wrong words”.
He found this question hard to answer and admitted that he might have “used the wrong words”.
@ucpinquiry He talked of the fear the police had of the “sheer volume” of people involved in the demonstrations, and their revolutionary ideals – he remains confused about whether they were going for 'total anarchy' or a 'socialist society' though!
@ucpinquiry He, personally, considered the VSC a front to cause trouble
He said “it wasn't always easy to maintain cover but I did my best and I was successful with it”
He said “it wasn't always easy to maintain cover but I did my best and I was successful with it”
@ucpinquiry He was asked his attendance at the wedding of two activists:
"I couldn't not do it, that was the thing” - he joined in the celebration at the pub afterwards but didn't go to the registry office.
"I couldn't not do it, that was the thing” - he joined in the celebration at the pub afterwards but didn't go to the registry office.
@ucpinquiry This meant that he avoided appearing in any of the photos.
He knew in advance that he'd been invited to the wedding, but does not recall what his managers thought about this.
He even took a gift along for the happy couple
[this was a tin-opener, according to earlier statement!]
He knew in advance that he'd been invited to the wedding, but does not recall what his managers thought about this.
He even took a gift along for the happy couple
[this was a tin-opener, according to earlier statement!]
@ucpinquiry He recalled the difficulty of doing the job, of pretending to be the 'best friend' of an activist, of having a pint and being matey with his targets.... of being 'on edge' all the time...
@ucpinquiry The next report was from an ILP branch meeting in Tower Hamlets in June 1969.
It was a small meeting, and there was talk of organising an anti-fascist rally and a local rent struggle.
He confirmed that these were typical of the issues the ILP campaigned about.
It was a small meeting, and there was talk of organising an anti-fascist rally and a local rent struggle.
He confirmed that these were typical of the issues the ILP campaigned about.
@ucpinquiry Sometimes he just wrote his reports on a pieces of plain A4 paper, for someone else to type up.
He doesn't remember if there was a typewriter at the 'office' [the safe house?] or not.
He doesn't remember if there was a typewriter at the 'office' [the safe house?] or not.
@ucpinquiry No trace of a Tower Hamlets branch of the ILP in Special Branch's records: any ideas why not?
HN326: This would have been down to those who worked in the “Hairy office up at the Yard” (ie Creamer, Smith, and Furner) They would write it up and come back for me to sign.”
HN326: This would have been down to those who worked in the “Hairy office up at the Yard” (ie Creamer, Smith, and Furner) They would write it up and come back for me to sign.”
@ucpinquiry Another report.
More about the workings of the ILP, with information from “very reliable sources” (the plural was noted).
More about the workings of the ILP, with information from “very reliable sources” (the plural was noted).
@ucpinquiry Would intelligence gathered by HN326 have made it into the lengthy report into the ILP?
HN326: "It 's a big justification really of sending me in”
HN326: "It 's a big justification really of sending me in”
@ucpinquiry Was he asked to focus on just one faction?
”I stuck mainly with the East End faction”
How militant were they?
"There were some pleasant enough blokes..."
”I stuck mainly with the East End faction”
How militant were they?
"There were some pleasant enough blokes..."
@ucpinquiry There are some reports about the preparations for a debate between the National Front and the ILP; the meetings were very small (4-5 people).
This 'debate' was due to take place on 30/10/69 at Friars Hall in Blackfriars Rd.
This 'debate' was due to take place on 30/10/69 at Friars Hall in Blackfriars Rd.
@ucpinquiry He was asked if he went to smaller meetings, eg with just 3 people present? No clear answer, but he chortled dismissively about the size of many of the left-wing groups...
@ucpinquiry saying that they had “exaggerated ideas of their own importance – they sort of had daft ideas and of course it resulted in this punch-up in the pub”
@ucpinquiry Does he think he influenced the 'direction of travel' of the group at all?
HN326 said that his tactic was to keep quiet and make mental notes of what was going on.
HN326 said that his tactic was to keep quiet and make mental notes of what was going on.
@ucpinquiry We then had a break. Back in 15 mins
@ucpinquiry Next document [0000008203] was a group report on the ILP
HN326's name appears at the bottom but he doesn't remember writing it himself – he said it was “quite a meaty tome” so must have been written by the back-office staff.
HN326's name appears at the bottom but he doesn't remember writing it himself – he said it was “quite a meaty tome” so must have been written by the back-office staff.
@ucpinquiry How come he became the treasurer of the Tower Hamlets ILP branch?
He explained that this was a small group, a 'tin pot organisation'
he remembers setting up a Barclays bank account, and funds being sent to “the Chilean earthquake disaster fund or something like that”
He explained that this was a small group, a 'tin pot organisation'
he remembers setting up a Barclays bank account, and funds being sent to “the Chilean earthquake disaster fund or something like that”
@ucpinquiry The group didn't have much money, they spent funds on things like banners
HN326 repeated his assertions about the 'tin pot' nature of the group and their modest means
“we're only talking about a few pounds, a few pounds”
HN326 repeated his assertions about the 'tin pot' nature of the group and their modest means
“we're only talking about a few pounds, a few pounds”
@ucpinquiry He does not recall speaking to his managers about accepting the position of treasurer, or any reaction from them to this development.
@ucpinquiry HN326: “I can't truthfully say one way or the other, I'm not going to make answers up”
<this caused much mirth in the hearing room>
“Of course not” the Inquiry counsel said smoothly
<this caused much mirth in the hearing room>
“Of course not” the Inquiry counsel said smoothly
@ucpinquiry The next document [0000008209] was dated 10/11/69
a report about the 'Action Committee vs NATO'
There was a meeting of the committee on 5th November – only three people were present – again HN326's name appears on page 2, it was counter-signed by CI Saunders.
a report about the 'Action Committee vs NATO'
There was a meeting of the committee on 5th November – only three people were present – again HN326's name appears on page 2, it was counter-signed by CI Saunders.
@ucpinquiry According to the report, Tri-continental provided money for the deposit, for booking meeting space at Conway Hall.
Was this something that you did at the behest of the ILP or your managers or your own initiative?
“Probably the ILP I think...”
Was this something that you did at the behest of the ILP or your managers or your own initiative?
“Probably the ILP I think...”
@ucpinquiry Why were his managers interested in this anti-NATO group?
He reckons they were worried about these “demonstration people” targeting something that was “vital for the security of the country”
He reckons they were worried about these “demonstration people” targeting something that was “vital for the security of the country”
@ucpinquiry We moved on to Tri-continental <although HN326 says he cannot remember anything about this group>
@ucpinquiry Did they act in a way that was unlawful?
He couldn't answer this.
He doesn't remember if they got involved in any public disorder
He couldn't answer this.
He doesn't remember if they got involved in any public disorder
He thought that Special Branch files were automatically destroyed after 30 years and seems perturbed that these have been “dragged out from somewhere”
He suggests they've come from “the hairy cupboard” <joke: his own>
He suggests they've come from “the hairy cupboard” <joke: his own>
What did your managers think?
Did you get any sense that they were pleased that the 'handle to swing on' was working or that they were not?
Did you get any sense that they were pleased that the 'handle to swing on' was working or that they were not?
HN326 felt he had to interject: “I've got nothing malicious against anybody, I believe in the right to free speech and sensible demonstrations without causing the police any problems...”
There were lots of questions that he struggled to answer.
“goodness me, you've put me on the spot.. I can't see how i'm going to answer that one” was typical of his responses
“goodness me, you've put me on the spot.. I can't see how i'm going to answer that one” was typical of his responses
He was asked about the anti-apartheid demonstrations and what he meant by referring to “all the trouble”? He mentioned Twickenham
HN326 was asked if he could remember the Dambusters group buying bank shares so they could attend the AGM?
Did the Dambusters commit any serious crimes? Were they violent?> Were they involved in any public disorder?
Did the Dambusters commit any serious crimes? Were they violent?> Were they involved in any public disorder?
HN326 sasy he can't remember much about them, so many years later.
"You're asking me things I can't answer.
I can't speak for the managers & what they thought...”
"You're asking me things I can't answer.
I can't speak for the managers & what they thought...”
The next group to be mentioned was the Irish Civil Rights Solidarity Campaign
HN326 says that he never went to their meetings, but he knows another of the #spycops did, and he was 'on observation' duty for him at least one time
HN326 says that he never went to their meetings, but he knows another of the #spycops did, and he was 'on observation' duty for him at least one time
The next document [MPS-0732317] is a report about the group's Islington branch. HN326's name is at the bottom, it's counter-signed by CI Saunders.
HN326 says he only went to one demo outside the Ulster office but apart from that , didn't cover any Irish groups - this was done by someone else.
He admitted that he would have reported finding out that someone was a member/ supporter of such a group.
He admitted that he would have reported finding out that someone was a member/ supporter of such a group.
In paragraph 109 of his witness statement HN326 describes the ICRSC as a "front for the IRA" but admits that he probably picked that attitude up from a colleague, and says he had no direct involvement with the ICRSC himself
The next report is from 10/04/70 about a group called SAAR, a new socialist anti-racist grouping.
"I don't remember this group at all" stated HN326
"I don't remember this group at all" stated HN326
Why would a tiny group like this be of interest to Special Branch?
HN326 was keen to tell us that “this is 50 years ago, Things were different weren't they, you know?"
HN326 was keen to tell us that “this is 50 years ago, Things were different weren't they, you know?"
He was asked if it being a 'campaign against racialism' would have made it of interest? Or because of the groups involved in founding it? And what his managers' attitude towards the group was?
HN326 did not recall much.
HN326 did not recall much.
There were some questions about the VSC, and a report about their planning meetings before a peacful demo which took place in the autumn of 1970.
He was asked about the 'secure phone line' that was set up between the hairies flat/ safe-house and the office at Scotland Yard. He cannot recall any of his colleagues ever using it, or him doing so.
He was asked about HN135 aka Mike Fergusson: "Oh poor Mike, yes, yes"
Did Mike Fergusson adopt any positions of responsbility in the Stop the Seventy tour, or the anti apartheid movement?
Did Mike Fergusson adopt any positions of responsbility in the Stop the Seventy tour, or the anti apartheid movement?
"I can't answer that" HN326 said he didn't know.
HN326 was undercover for about two years.
Was there any discussion with your managers about how long this would go on for?
HN326 was undercover for about two years.
Was there any discussion with your managers about how long this would go on for?
HN326: "I'd had enough, I'd had enough of going around with long beard and long hair and being scruffy”
- he described it as “quite a strain on the system” and said unless you've done the job you don't know what's involved"
- he described it as “quite a strain on the system” and said unless you've done the job you don't know what's involved"
He mused about how it had got more difficult later on, for the #spycops who came later and got more deeply embedded, for longer periods
He trotted out the line "I was just a small cog in a great big machine;
I did my little bit as best as I could to help the police...and be a good branch officer" [this phrase appeared in a statement HN326 wrote in the past]
I did my little bit as best as I could to help the police...and be a good branch officer" [this phrase appeared in a statement HN326 wrote in the past]
after his time with the SDS, HN326 returmed to work in other areas of Special Branch - naturalisation enquiries and the rest.
"that's what it's all about... loyalty to the Branch... "
HN326 made a bitter-sounding rant about "trusting people", and people who "can't keep their traps shut". He is very disappointed about the former #spycops officers who have talked to the media about their work
HN326 made a bitter-sounding rant about "trusting people", and people who "can't keep their traps shut". He is very disappointed about the former #spycops officers who have talked to the media about their work
He reminisced about the time that a senior officer brought a bottle of whisky along to the SDS
to say thank you for their work
to say thank you for their work
Did you get the impression that senior officers knew all about the SDS and what it was doing?
He reckons that top management knew, because other #spycops ended up being promoted to “Commanders and all the rest of it”
He reckons that top management knew, because other #spycops ended up being promoted to “Commanders and all the rest of it”
He went back to more clerical duties - after he's had his hair cut! - and worked on C Squad's industrial desk. He said he had no knowledge of information gathered by C Squad being passed to the private sector. "Obviously it would go to the security service in the first instance"
Does HN326 think that reports (with his name on them) were sent in order to justify these SDS deployments continuing?
He said that some of them didn't 'ring a bell' so he assumed they'd been written up by others, and his name added afterwards
He said that some of them didn't 'ring a bell' so he assumed they'd been written up by others, and his name added afterwards
Reports had to be of a "sufficient grade" to be passed to 'Box 500' (ie the security services) and this work was done by the lads in the office
He talked about them keeping the budget low, and pointed out that he didn't cost much, he lived in a 'rabbit hutch' (the cover flat)
He confirmed that he himself was assaulted in Grosvenor Square, by uniformed police armed with trucheons
"I just remember getting clouted. That was all"
"I just remember getting clouted. That was all"
Asked why the police had gone for him, he said:
"It's just the fact you've got long hair and a beard that they wallop you, you know. It's 50 years ago, this is what they were doing. It's a different attitude to things. Goodness"
"It's just the fact you've got long hair and a beard that they wallop you, you know. It's 50 years ago, this is what they were doing. It's a different attitude to things. Goodness"
[He will doubtless be shocked to discover that the police continue to do this. If only he had read about Mark Kennedy being beaten at Climate Camp]
There were no more questions, so the #SpyCopsInquiry ended here. It will be back on next week - on Monday, Wednesday and Thursday at least
• • •
Missing some Tweet in this thread? You can try to
force a refresh
