Why Greg Maxwell thinks #bircoin hardware wallets are a bad idea (even for noobs).
Greg is a legend that, among many other heroic accomplishments, discovered covert
ASIC boost - arguably the worst security flaw ever found with bitcoin.
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Greg is a legend that, among many other heroic accomplishments, discovered covert
ASIC boost - arguably the worst security flaw ever found with bitcoin.
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“I don't think very highly of hardware wallets. They're opaque, largely unauditable. Most are crapped up with sketchy altcoin support that forces them into objectively less secure cryptographic code and makes them harder to review.”
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“They're an extremely attractive target for supply chain attacks. An old laptop that never goes on-line is a lot better IMO, except where space/portability are a concern...”
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“and can also be less expensive (you may already own one, or a linux compatible laptop can be obtained surplus extremely in expensively: I have a tall stack of thinkpads that I bought for ~$10 each, that I use as essentially disposable offline computers)”
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(Skipping some comments not directly criticisms of hardware wallets)
Next we see a typical talking point for selling hardware wallets from another Redditor:
“unless you consider yourself a true Bitcoin wizard you will be better of with a Bitcoin-only hardware wallet.”
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Next we see a typical talking point for selling hardware wallets from another Redditor:
“unless you consider yourself a true Bitcoin wizard you will be better of with a Bitcoin-only hardware wallet.”
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Greg
"I wrote a paragraph expressing that kind of sentiment, saying that as a casual user who otherwise runs windows and isn't going to do those advanced things that the HW wallet might still be better. But I scrapped it because couldn't bring myself to do it in good faith:
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"I wrote a paragraph expressing that kind of sentiment, saying that as a casual user who otherwise runs windows and isn't going to do those advanced things that the HW wallet might still be better. But I scrapped it because couldn't bring myself to do it in good faith:
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"The badness of the supply chain vulnerability is so severe that I just cannot recommend a hardware wallet except for casual low/moderate value use where it doesn't really matter what security properties you use."
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"For the moment the situation isn't quite dire because the thieves are busy with low hanging fruit, and haven't started e.g. flooding ebay/amazon with nearly indistinguishable backdoored clones. Yet."
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"(or maybe they have, and Jan 1st, everyone with one is going to have their funds taken all at the same time. :( )."
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(someone says there are bitcoin only hww and Greg replies)
I'm not sure that this is really true. For example, coldcard is marketed this way-- but its software uses trezor-crypto, so it's still obfuscated up by altcoin support..."
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I'm not sure that this is really true. For example, coldcard is marketed this way-- but its software uses trezor-crypto, so it's still obfuscated up by altcoin support..."
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"I'm not sure that this is really true. For example, coldcard is marketed this way- but its software uses trezor-crypto, so its still obfuscated up by altcoin support and still uses crypto code that isn't even constant time much less hardened otherwise against sidechannels."
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"The fact that they don't support altcoins means they're more likely to improve in the future than others... but even without the altcoin security distraction supply chain security is just exceptionally hard..."
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" and a cryptocurrency-only device is always going to be an exceptionally hot target.
At the moment I think the best option at the intersection of security and usability may be a linux laptop/desktop that never runs any software other than your wallet."
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At the moment I think the best option at the intersection of security and usability may be a linux laptop/desktop that never runs any software other than your wallet."
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"This doesn't require being a super-security wizard, as an airgapped setup does, ....
Of course, it's also a question of how much value you're securing. Both this solution and hardware wallets have the problem of being too expensive to be justified for tiny values."
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Of course, it's also a question of how much value you're securing. Both this solution and hardware wallets have the problem of being too expensive to be justified for tiny values."
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(anther redditor rolls out the same tripe about hww reducing user errors)
Greg:
"It's more common for people to forget their passphrases or fail to backup their wallets than to lose them to theft, by a wide margin."
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Greg:
"It's more common for people to forget their passphrases or fail to backup their wallets than to lose them to theft, by a wide margin."
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"The attacker stuffs a piece of paper in the box to give the user a pre-selected wallet seed. This attack doesn't sound especially frightening because it's easily thwarted, but the reason more sophisticated attacks aren't happening is because the piece of paper is so effective."
(more tripe about it being hard to setup without a hww)
Greg:
"A stock OS install, of e.g. Fedora, has absolutely nothing else that talks on the network. If you don't launch a web browser or similar its extremely unlikely to get compromised."
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Greg:
"A stock OS install, of e.g. Fedora, has absolutely nothing else that talks on the network. If you don't launch a web browser or similar its extremely unlikely to get compromised."
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(someone says Greg Maxwell can't possibly claim Linux is more auditable because it is so big compared to hww)
Greg:
"I can and I do. You have to also factor in the number of reviewers, ease of review, and targetedness of the attack."
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Greg:
"I can and I do. You have to also factor in the number of reviewers, ease of review, and targetedness of the attack."
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"So for example: Standard hardware wallets leak secret material via timing sidechannels pretty much universally (there are a couple that probably don't, but most do), even though it is not hard to avoid this. Why? Because there is essentially no effective review."
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"The software running on these devices ends up being created by one or two person teams, and copy and pasted all over the place."
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(tripe about a secure chip being awesome in hww)
Greg Maxwell:
"Secure chip" also means you cannot confirm what the device is actually running."
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Greg Maxwell:
"Secure chip" also means you cannot confirm what the device is actually running."
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"You can build all you want, and compare that this matches the firmware signed by the maker but you have no idea if that is what is actually running on the device, only that the device claims that its running that."
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"Moreover, under your theory that all linux kernels are vulnerable to network attacks even on locked down machines, the HW wallets still end up compromised: because the vulnerable hosts can be used to compromise the HW firmware, or cause the user to purchase a compromised/device.
(end of Greg Maxwell's epic takedown of every single selling point for hardware wallets)
Here is the thread on Reddit:
old.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comm…
Here is the thread on Reddit:
old.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comm…
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