Thread by @MForstater

#MOMAbill Lord True - The government has listened carefully and has heard the strength of feeling - gender neutral drafting does not require a single approach.

"Mother" and "expectant mother" is legal and acceptable to the government

parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/3c…

@LordPhilofBrum talking about the ability of women to talk clearly about sex where #sexmatters @SexMattersOrg !

Talking about what happened to @RosieBoycott was disgusting and the silence from her colleagues

Those who speak up for women's rights and clear language are criticised for transphobes it is #chilling

If you erase women from the language and law how is that inclusive?

The Equality Act of 2010 was drafted carefully with separate characteristics; sex and gender reassignment
principles for reconciling and balancing rights when they come into conflict.

Baroness Barker suggesting @janeclarejones @lnmackenzie1 report coming from the Alt-right

"documents that look like research. The Noble Lords would have got one in the recess. When you look closely they are just the same dodgy dossier as you got in the past"

The Times she says is full of "gross misrepresentations".....

No evidence of that? Perhaps she should complain to IPSO

Or read the IPSO research ipso.co.uk/news-press-rel…

She keeps saying people have said that "trans people are a threat"... It isn't what anyone has said.

She says the use of "mother" excludes "trans men" from maternity law.

@1SVN says there is nothing that has been said about trans people - this is about women's place in society that needs to be recognised alongside other groups.

Prefers "Woman" but supports "mother" and thanks to Lord True.

Baroness Hayman welcomes the amendment. Glad to hear Baroness Barker and glad she has been heard.

It is tremendously easy to find ourselves in destructive polarisation where we feel like we have to be at an extreme.

Important to be able to talk about how we reconcile conflicting rights.

I have had three letters from trans men who were worried that their rights were being taken away. But as Lord Pannick said no rights would be taken from people who were born female and who give birth.

I am an unreconstructed feminist and I have been concerned about language and that seeping into women's spaces and women's rights.

We should accommodate and support, but we have to provide service for women.

It is important to draw that line in the sand.

Lord Cormack talking about the need for government to "recognise the obvious" and for cross party dialogue and robust discussion.

This is not the end of the matter, not even the beginning of the end. It is the beginning of the beginning.

It is important that we have a review of how language is used and how women's rights must be fought for and protected in language.

Lord Winston - a maternity bill comes from the Latin "mater", mother. To ignore that would be "ludicrous" (that word again @Andrew_Adonis !

The issue of transgender rights has been one of the most toxic. I was very upset to hear Baroness Barker speak.
"I am not a bigot." I am not opposed to people's different sexuality or transgender

Words are often not being used properly - the greatest single biologist is Prof Roger Short.

His stuff is seminal "I daren't use the word" 🤣

Now going through chromosomes XX and XY, gonadal sex: scrotum and ova, germ cells - eggs and sperm. Hormonal sex. Testosterone effects early in the womb. Women have testosterone too. Brain sex, well before birth. Sexuality...

This bill is not about "gender" its about women. The link between mothers and their children. Praising and supporting mothers, including those from disadvantaged backgrounds. Thanks to @Baroness_Nichol @1SVN @LordPhilofBrum

@Baroness_Nichol - On Monday it felt like people were quite alarmed by the word "mother" - now it is all's well that ends well. And thanks to @1SVN for her regret motion. We all opened our hearts and our minds.

@Baroness_Nichol Members from across the house working together on house on this. Reading out all the names! Labour, Conservative, Non-aligned. A big group a large cluster. It is a beginning. A first step in clarifying some of the legislation that has become confused.

We are in the House of Lords, we have the time, the duty, the knowledge, we are people of service....

👏👏👏👏👏 #Mumstheword

Lord Dodds - if we can't say "women" and "mother" here, where can we not.

If we had missed this opportunity to rectify this it would have been used an excuse to do away with "woman" in other legislation in the future

Lord Mancroft - I have rarely in my time in the house received so many measured communications about the language in this Bill.

It is about tone. It strikes at the heart of who we are.

We have breathing space to make corrections when they are needed. Today is a great example of what happens when the backbenches are well organised and listened to. Thank you to Lord True.

Lord Forsyth - I circulated @1SVN to several people.

It is important that legislation uses language that is understandable and that we govern with consent

"I think Baroness Barker has gone off the rails a bit here." The very title of the bill contains the word maternity.

The drafting guidance is perfectly sensible - clearly in the case of childbirth is not "gender neutral"

Lord True - the midwife delivering commonsense

Baroness Goudie - also raises issue for other ministers, MPs and parliamentary staff.

I think she meant to "woman" would have been better than "mother"

Lord Murrow - the original bill was disrespectful to women, and was in contrast to other language in legislation.

It would have dehumanised women.

Lord Saltaire - we will return to these issues.

When i first joined the house, it was dominated by men. Women were treated like "day boys"

We do not want to return to the attitudes and language of that generation.

This is a very sensitive area where passions can be aroused. The last thing we want is culture wars. We don't want American battles with partisan media. We are committed to an inclusive society. Rights for women and for LGBT shouldn't be pitched against each other

He is not persuaded that there is any threat to freedom of speech at universities.

warns of populists and hard line lobbies...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff - For a group to be properly protected in the law they need to be properly named in the law.

Baroness Meyer - it is a plain fact of human existence that only women can become pregnant. We might as well strike biology from the curriculum.

English is my third language.

Things have moved on since the "gender neutral" protocol. We are on a slippery slope to complete debasement of language - chestfeeder, menstruators, uterus havers - demeaning to women (I hope @jk_rowling is watching!!)

Lord Morris of Aberavon calls for general review of drafting guidance

@Fox_Claire Our inboxes has been bursting with gratitude. We opened up a Pandoras Box .

In this house we can't be cancelled. We have wriggle room to say something unsayable. People commend our courage. but we are safe here. We are not facing the threat that Selina Todd faced

People are frightened of being called bigots. I disagree with Lord Wallace that free speech is not under threat.

Baroness Barker associated us with people who campaigned against immigrants and gay rights.

We are not saying trans people are a threat to women. We are saying that a certain brand of trans activism is.

Women only refuges are losing contracts because councils are using non-gendered language in tenders.

I know there are difficulties. I worry about protecting trans people. I don't want the polarisation.

We deal with it with grown ups, free speech. Open debate.

"In order to think clearly we need to be able to speak clearly"

Today we didn't lose the war on words. No space for complacency. It is only the start

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Lord Polak - what were the drafters of this Bill thinking....or more to the point, who were they listening to ?

Concern at listening to the loudest minority and not to the silent majority.

Baronesss Uddin - language matters in law. I breast fed 5 children. Not chestfeeding. Lets not go down the route that got us here.

I would have preferred "women" but not I support the amendment. ... talks about how women are excluded from society as mothers. We must provide women the necessary support.

Real issues - working conditions for minority women, women's pay and support for women, expectant mothers and mothers. We have raised hope for women and mothers across the country

Baroness Altmann the use of "pregnant people" marginalises women in their biological role.

I support women's rights and seen the progress of women in a man's world.

I regret the perception that standing up for women denigrates other groups. I am not transphobic.

Balancing equalities must not become the topic that marginalises others rights. The rights of minorities must be respected.

The house has made a big difference. Our ability to reach unity in diversity will be the test of our civilisation.

Lord Triesman - Liz Barker - when people tell you that you are going to call them. It is important that it is true. We have been involved in the various fights for women's rights. The same is true about LGB rights. And the rights of trans people.

I do not accept that by raising these issues we have turned our back on this history. I accept that trans women are under threat. But also other groups are under threat. Deplores nastiness and incivility and deplore that Liz Barker has been in receipt of that

There is evidence on all sides. There is a huge amount of evidence. Referred to by Lord Hunt and Baroness Fox that we are seeing organisations and individuals having their ability to act on behalf of individuals stripped away.
It is real evidence.

I have received good emails and abuse.

Language is important. It is urgent for this bill, and for the @ONS - not collecting data in the census. We have been given not time to comment on this. It guides our understanding. It will be poorly defined.

Lord Balfe asks why "woman" and not "mother"? No one here seems to agree with it! But why was it chosen.

Someone got this government into this mess. The people drafting the Bill messed it up! I hope that steps will be taken so that we are not put in this position again.

Raises the issue of patients who don't speak good English. We need to have clear language that everyone can understand. Making great difficulties.

Lord Balfe talks about "luxury beliefs"

"Never get further than the membership"....we have got ahead of ordinary people. We are a parliament for every body not just a few.

Baroness Hoey. It is not for civil servants to write legislation. It is for parliament.

We must speak up for women who are being attacked for speaking about sex based rights.

There has been too much silence from the government and the opposition.

We have sent a message out today to women in the country that we will defend their rights and we will speak out.

This is only the beginning.

Lord Lilley "this is about the control of language. Totalitarians of all strips know that controlling language is to control thought. Quotes Orwell - making thoughtcrime impossible because there are no words left to express it"

I hope we have sent a clear message to those in the cabinet office and those who draft legislation.

"affected phrases and incongruous words...murder the language". You will be discharged for a fool

Baroness Deech. Neutral language risks not reaching people. "persons with vagina"

Asks the Lords if they want to be "sperm producers"

There are challenges to free speech university.

Now she is talking about the McConnell case. We can speak of mother without limiting the role of a trans person in their new gender.

Equality Act. Man and Woman. Male and Female.

Let us reinforce clarity and dignity in language. Show common sense. Reflect the special status of women.

@BaronessDeech

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Lord Dobbs. I would have voted for both amendments. Thanks to everyone. A very good day for the House of Lords. An even better day for women

Baroness Brinton - gender neutral language avoids excluding certain groups. Sorry for any receiving abuse on social media. Nothing as bad as Lady Barker receives. Important issue on use of social media. Online Harms Bill.

The reality of this bill is that some people will be affected by this change(!) in language.

Trans community at risk of domestic abuse and violence.

I do not think this language excludes women

We risk excluding trans men, non binary people and intersex.

It is factually incorrect that only women can get pregnant. Legally men, non binary and intersex people can become pregnant.

The only language that can be used is "person"

Terminology may be superseded. Parliament could change the policy around registering birth. Mr McConnell is required to be registered as the mother.

Lord Pannick drew the conclusion that the law pertaining to birth registration has implications beyond this mother.

There are risks and problems. The law should deal practically with how the world works. People who are legally male can give birth.

Changing language on birth certificates would resolve this... it is a political issue.

If parliament wants to include men , non binary people and intersex people in giving birth they could do so.

LGBT community have felt a chill wind from this debate.

Baroness Hayman - we must strive for rights and true equality for all women.

Much needed improvements to the Bill for further MPs

Lord True - we will review drafting guidance - application of Gender Neutral language and when it relates to sex.

The government look at other English language legislation.

"We must not countenance the erasure of women from public life or our legislation"

Will send it back with Lord Lucas's amendment -

#replacepersonwithmother

@LordLucasCD we are facing a full on attack on women's sex based rights, being pursued in the name of trans rights. It is not necessary we can remove discrimination and harassment for trans people without undermining women's rights.

The way forward is conversation. And men giving way.

Thank you to Baroness Barker

We need openness, willingness to listen.

There are fundamental confusions of language that need sorting out.

@threadreaderapp unroll please