Thread by @barandbench

#WomensDay event hosted by ILI, Kerala on “Women in the Legal Profession, Triumphs and Challenges” to begin shortly. Speakers:

- Chief Justice Hima Kohli (Telangana HC)
- Justice Anu Sivaraman (Kerala HC)
- Geetha Ramaseshan
- SK Devi

Watch live-stream:

Correction: The event is now being live-streamed at a different link:

After welcome address by SK Devi, President of Kerala Federation of Women's Lawyers, Justice Hima Kohli begins speaking.

Justice Kohli: All women have had challenges thrown at them, wherever they are, whichever field of practice they are in.

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Justice Kohli: We are talking of legal profession. But then, women have multiple roles to play. So when we are talking of legal profession, we are talking of women who have a role to play as mothers, sisters, wives...

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Justice Kohli: There are multiple roles, but each one of them has been moulded into each other to give different facets to a woman for her to evolve as a person, and that person is the one who steps out from a comfort zone to go into a practice as tough as the legal profession is

Justice Kohli speaks of her own experience

Justice Kohli: I had nobody in the profession who was anywhere, anyhow related to law. It was a completely different subject for me to join.

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Justice Kohli recalls that her mother came from an academic background whereas her father came from a business background.

She adds: But for the fact that my mother, as a woman. supported me for joining the legal profession, perhaps I would have been there.

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Justice Kohli: The challenge that was thrown was not within the family but outside.. thereafter the struggle to make a place for oneself under the sun. When I had joined in the mid 80s, there were not law firms of the nature as there are now...

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Justice Kohli: Those were the days when one had to join a senior to be able to even starting looking to entering courts and get some work.

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Justice Kohli: Nobody would give a youngster any work and I can't blame them because their entire litigation depended on the performance of the lawyer...I was blessed, I had excellent seniors, generous with their time and kind enough to give opportunities...

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Justice Kohli recalls that she got a different perspective of what one could do as a Judge for society after she was appointed to the High Court.

Justice Kohli: The satisfaction that one gets in being able to do something worthy, to be able to make a difference to somebody's life, is the best thing that can happen.

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Justice Kohli: Even for a lawyer, the satisfaction is not of getting the fee after a point. It is about being able to do a case well and managing to get the relief for your client

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Justice Kohli says when she thinks back, she does not recall which lawyer paid her a lot of fee.

Justice Kohli: But I can remember one woman whose little case in the heart of Delhi relating to a tenant dispute... who could not pay the fee....

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Justice Kohli: Well she couldn't (pay fee), I continued with the matter. The lady (a seamstress) had the dignity of watching me and one day coming up and saying that she would like to starch my saris and return the courtesy ('we wear white saris, as you know.. starched white')

Justice Kohli: That is what got me so emotional. That is what I remember even now. These are some examples all of us recall.

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Justice Anu Sivaraman speaks on the perception of some areas of law not being for women

Justice Sivaraman: These are just perceptions, matters of stereotypes that we encounter at every stage of our lives.

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Justice Sivaraman adds that while there are systemic changes required, "it's up to us as lawyers, women to chart out our paths and to walk that way without worrying about what the world says about us, what is perceived as the 'correct niche' for the woman."

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Justice Sivaraman recalls that the first Judge in the commonwealth was Justice Anna Chandy from Kerala. She refers to other pioneering women in law - Justice Fathima Beevi, Justice KK Usha

"It is because of them we are here today; our place in the sun owe to them."

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Justice Sivaraman: Systemic changes, yes, required. But it is the will to work our way, to break our paths, that is more required.

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Geetha Ramaseshan: When I enrolled in the bar, there were many senior lawyers who would not take a woman lawyer as a junior. Today I find the position reversed so much that many seniors are wanting a woman junior.

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Advocate Ninni Susan Thomas, who is moderating the discussion, asks Justice Kohli a question on mentoring young women lawyers.

Justice Kohli recalls how in her days of practice she and some like-minded women lawyers started 'Women in Law and Litigation' (WILL)

Justice Kohli: It is very important to have that bulwark available for women for being able to interact with each other, to lend your strengths and borrow someone else's weaknesses and make them into strengths.

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Justice Sivaraman says that in Kerala High Court, there as been an informal support system within the group of women lawyers. She adds that the High Court has all infrastructure in place some women lawyers can come and interact with each other.

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Justice Sivaraman: Even before the new High Court building came up, this informal support system has always been there.

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Justice Sivaraman: I enrolled in 1991, and we did have a room... the informal system of mentoring, I felt, has always been there...I am hoping that youngsters coming into the profession will take this forward...

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Qn on the sensitivity of the Bench when women judges are on the bench

Kohli J.: I found that the sensitivity of my bench partners who are males on issues relating to women was surprisingly far more than I would have expected my own self or a woman colleague on the bench to have.

Justice Kohli: It came as such a pleasant surprise... it made all that difference. Because you, as a woman, have a take that comes naturally...but for a man to take that extra step to react to the same situation with more, if not equal sensitivity, was a pleasant surprise...

Justice Kohli ... there are not cliches and there are no straightjacket formulae... in fact, a woman may be sometimes more conservative vis a vis a male.

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Justice Kohli: I would think that things are changed, they're for the better. The sensitivity levels are high. Perhaps their family is there, they are given that thought process to the men to react in that manner in situations where women find themselves in a difficulty.

Justice Kohli adds that full credit is the upbringing of such (male) judges, "just as it is our upbringing, male or female, that puts that little seed in the heart; that seed shows results when the judgments are written."

Justice Sivaraman says she agrees with Justice Kohli (on the sensitivity of male judges in issues concerning women)

Justice Sivaraman: I would only like to add that, I feel we are underestimating our men and their sensitivity. It has been really refreshing because...

Justice Sivaraman: ... in several situations, it has been the male partner of the bench who has understood the situation and been more sensitive than I have been. Kudos to them.

Geetha Ramaseshan agrees. She notes however that sometimes women lawyers may feel more encouraged, less hesitant if they appear before women judges.

Ramaseshan: But whether judgments are going to be different on the basis of your gender - I don't think so.

Justice Kohli, answering a Qn, speaks on notion that it would be difficult for a woman to get married if she practices law

Justice Kohli: At least in those 80s & 90s decades, parents would think that if our daughter gets seeped into practice, we would never find an ideal match..

Justice Kohli:... so they sooner they could - if I may use the words - "settle her in", it would be better for them. That was the approach

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Justice Kohli: So many of the young girls, with all their enthusiasm and who wanted to practice, would suddenly find that they had to choose between marriage and practice.

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Justice Kohli notes that once this happens, family pressure would also mount and the woman would have to choose.

Justice Kohli: Those who married within the profession had the advantage of the husband taking over the reins while the woman was busy setting up family.

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Justice Kohli: Or if she was somebody who was a second-generation lawyer...father or a brother would help in. So there would be a running practice to come back to ... but that would not happen to a standalone woman practitioner.

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Justice Kohli: She (standalone woman lawyer) would have to drop everything and by the time that critical period of 4-5 years to bring the child up enough for the baby to go to a school ...(the woman) invariably would sacrifice the career for the male to continue running the house

Justice Kohli: Those were things that were happening more in the 80s-90s. Things started to change after - because of the law firm practice catching up.

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Justice Kohli: Women also, I found, were much more focused - happily so - not choosing between the profession but wanting to merge the two - to continue the practice while getting married. So it was not as if you had to choose one or the other.

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Justice Kohli notes that the age of taking the decision to get married has also shifted from early 20s to later 20s and closer 30s "which helps."

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Justice Kohli: Of course the biological clock is ticking and the woman also knows that if she wants to marry and set up a family, there are timelines attached to it. But that's not a deterrent.

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Justice Kohli: She is willing to go that extra mile and do that work and still continue to carry that decision of tying the knot and getting on with setting up a family. I would say things have improved over what it was

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Justice Sivaraman: The singular most challenge to women continuing with the practice of law is the issue of childcare. It is maternity and child-rearing - they are the most challenging... for a working woman

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Justice Sivaraman: That, according to me, is what causes disruption in the practice the most.

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Justice Sivaraman: I have also noticed that once you take a break and the break goes on long enough, even when you come back, you are not really as seriously as a lawyer who stayed in the profession.

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Justice Sivaraman: I think it is up to us to find out how this issue of child care can be addressed.

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Justice Sivaraman says that once the issue of child care is addressed satisfactorily, the issue of women dropping out of law practice can be addressed.

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Geetha Ramaseshan: When I enrolled in '82 the first question many said was 'don't join, you can never get married.' Of course, I am totally single by choice, but that is a different issue.

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Ramaseshan: Point is that from '82 to today, there is a larger number of women in other sectors who are also not taking a break. Therefore, there is a different child care system that has developed.

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Ramaseshan: Women working in IT, in other fields, are not taking a break for various reasons. One is also the fact that they want a two-income household because of EMIs and loans...

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Ramaseshan: by compulsion, you find that compared to the 80s .... other systems are developing in terms of external child care systems etc. It is going to go that way. It is not just lawyers. Women may want to continue in their careers and may not take much of a break

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Ramaseshan: For a senior, however empathetic they are, it is hard for them to give a complete break because of the nature of the work.

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Ramaseshan: They might adjust to a large extent but they might still find it very difficult. Ultimately, this is a single profession - it is an individualistic profession in more ways than one.

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Ramaseshan observes that when women lawyers increase, mechanisms for support systems will also develop.

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Justice Sivaraman notes that when a woman in a government job takes maternity leave, she does not face stigma in joining back and resuming where she left off.

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In the legal profession as well, Justice Sivaraman says: It will be a matter of acceptance of this break (maternity leave) as a necessity - a situation where (it is not that) 'she is taking a break because she is not serious about her profession.'

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Justice Kohli: I thought that one of the positives of the COVID was the virtual courts which helped women a lot. To my mind women who did not an office, chamber, conveyance to travel had that benefit of having a mobile phone to connect with the courts...

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Justice Kohli: They had that opportunity just to link up, wherever they were, adjust their timings within the home, adjust with the children or the parents or in laws... and still have that time to log into a hearing and log out.

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Justice Kohli adds that online mediation also went up since the lawyers did not have to remain in court to attend.

Justice Kohli: That phase of the COVID-19 pandemic did give this advantage for women to do a lot of things together without moving out from their homes..

Geetha Ramaseshan answers qn on how young women lawyers may feel safe in the legal profession, referring to a case where an intern alleged sexual harassment by a judge.

Ramaseshan: High Courts have to bring in a systemic sexual harassment committee. That is a structural issue...

Ramaseshan: But young interns need not get disillusioned. We know for a fact that young interns are still joining senior judges and they are doing very excellent work

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Ramaseshan: Sexual harassment is a problem. It is there in the profession, we cannot deny it. It is there among lawyers. There can be no denial of the fact that it is a problem and I don't think anybody wants to deny that

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Justice Sivaraman: Post Vishaka and post the statute, I feel it is not a lack of formal systems. Formal systems and checks are in place, as of now. But how many complaints do we have? How many real complaints do we have?

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Justice Sivaraman: In a genuine case of harassment, there is this reluctance on the part of the intern or the person facing it to make a complaint because of various factors.

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Justice Sivaraman: There is the other issue of complaints being made with other motives as well. Complaints that are not completely genuine being raised for other reasons. These are the twin aspects we have to look at.

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Justice Sivaraman: Even with the system, how confident is the woman to approach the system? How competent is the system to actually deal with the issue? This is an area where we have to make the woman confident enough to come to us and to see that we are competent to solve

Justice Sivaraman: We need much more discussion on this.. and see that a woman who raises a genuine complaint feels protected in the system. This requires much more work. I don't have any glib suggestion to make.

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Justice Kohli weighs with examples from her days as chairperson of the sexual harassment committee of the Delhi High Court.

CJ Kohli: Many of us don't know that for a complaint by a lawyer against a lawyer, it is the State Bar Council that has a role to play

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CJ Kohli: Have the problem is, women don't know where to go. So if it is a subordinate judiciary or the staff of the court... it is that sexual harassment committee constituted for that court that will work.

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CJ Kohli: If it is lawyer v a clerk or lawyer v lawyer, it would go to a different forum... (after the first forum, appellate forum) finally it goes to the Bar Council of India.

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CJ Kohli: Those levels were not even manned in many States. The Bar Councils of the States had not set up the (sexual harassment) committees, unfortunately.

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CJ Kohli: I can give you a random example in the case where a staff of our court had a grievance...and had the guts to make a complaint. Half the time, as Anu said, one hates to come in limelight and it is always considered to be for the wrong reasons, if I may use that word...

CJ Kohli: Whenever somebody has the courage to come to the committee and complain, it is the duty of the committee to make sure she is comfortable enough to continue with the complaint and has the backing of knowing that if something goes wrong, the committee is there.

CJ Kohli: So one of the things we (Delhi HC sexual harassment committee) did was - because the gentleman was found to be stalking those ladies, not 1 but 2 - ensure that a vehicle is arranged by the court to pick them up and drop them in the evening.

CJ Kohli: The other thing we did was - there were directions, interim order that was issued that the man would not come within the radius of 100m of the women in the workplace. And we made sure that it was implemented.

CJ Kohli: The message should go that the committees are active and will not take any such bullying by the man once the woman has made a complaint. That gave them the confidence to stick to their version and they were willing to take it further for trial.

CJ Kohli says she has also conducted a full-blown trial on a complaint made against a subordinate judicial officer by staff

CJ Kohli: We ultimately indicted him. But how difficult it was to gather, sift through the evidence and to be able to connect the thread is another story.

CJ Kohli: But the fact that the woman stuck to her story and she deposed and we had all the evidence led... was an experience which hands-on is different from any trial.

Ramaseshan says that sexual harassment complaint by a lawyer against a lawyer is far more difficult

Ramaseshan: If lawyers operate from their homes, their home is actually the workspace. Sometimes there is a more friendly relation that develops with the family if it is your home

Ramaseshan: Then sometimes, the only option left with the young woman lawyer is to go to the police, which if she does, sometimes there would be a lawyers' group that would prevent her from doing so...

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Ramaseshan says that such a complainant may also become afraid that she will become unpopular with no other lawyer's office wanting to take her on as a junior

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Ramaseshan: A great vested interest structure is very much there.

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Panellists asked for their concluding remarks on #WomensDay and challenges faced by women

CJ Kohli: I can only say that when we talk of 'challenge' and 'challenge to status quo' I hope to live the day when there is an international men's day, celebrated with the same gusto as we are doing on #WomensDay. That would validate everything that we have discussed.

Justice Sivaraman: When we talking about women in the legal profession, I think we are forgetting a section of women in the profession, that is women in the judiciary - the district courts and magistracy and of course the civil courts.

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Justice Sivaraman: These women have been great formative factor as far as the legal profession is concerned. Their numbers have increased exponentially. women in the judiciary are now almost reaching a situation of being in the majority...

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Justice Sivaraman's message to women lawyers: Please don't forget the pioneers. And please don't forget that in some respects, you are pioneers as well. The only thing standing in the way of you and complete success is the limitations you put on yourselves.

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Geetha Ramaseshan notes that there is not a lot of written materials on women pioneers in the legal profession and hopes that the ILI can take up this and bring out publications on experiences of senior women lawyers.

Geetha Ramaseshan: To the young lawyers I want to say it is a very adventurous profession. It is exhilarating, frustrating but never boring. So always step into it and take the challenge and take the connectivity with your seniors and enter the profession bravely.

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Event has concluded after the vote of thanks.

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