Senate Community Affairs Reference committee beginning today's hearing into #Robodebt. @SenatorSiewert chairing. Representatives of the Administrative Appeals Tribunal up first.
https://twitter.com/NotmydebtS/status/1376361418522566661?s=19
Monique Adofaci of the AAT reading a brief statement on the function and mechanisms of the Tribunal. The AAT are a key check on administrative power in our democracy, and produced several decisions challenging #Robodebt (for which the members were usually laid off by Government)
Nearly half of all decisions made by AAT in the years since #Robodebt began involving social security referred to a debt.
Chris Matthies, chief legal officer of AAT, clarifying that these debts may be debts raised in years prior to the figures provided. @SenatorSiewert asking for more detail for prior years, the income support payment received from Centrelink, etc on notice.
Senator @Deborah_ONeill questioning now. She is asking about Member Barry, a professional lobbyist, whether he was dealing with #Robodebt matters since being appointed. The Liberal Government has been stacking the AAT with partisan appointments as we're all too aware.
It's confirmed that he worked in the social security division. Mr Barry was *currently enrolled* as a lobbyist while a member of AAT. His solution was to resign from his lobbying job 🤗 @Deborah_ONeill correctly says that a 'morally aware person' would not consider doing both.
As a part-time member, he is not obliged to seek approval for secondary employment or declare any conflicts of interest. Protocols have not changed following this incident within AAT. The President of the AAT had to prompt him to resign. Has/will his decisions be reviewed? No.
Senator @Deborah_ONeill pressing AAT. Says decisions could be open to challenge. AAT is 'not aware' of any conflicts of interest have occurred, though can't say if they've investigated. The only time to raise conflict of interest concerns is during proceedings, apparently.
'There is no provision of power within the AAT Act to reopen, revisit or reconsider' previous decisions, despite clear ethical concerns within AAT. The vice-president of the AAT is a former Liberal Senator from Victoria, who is the person responsible for dealing with this.
Senator @hollieahughes pipes up as someone who is intimately familiar with the Liberal stooge to AAT pipeline. Her interjection is ruled out of order, and you seriously have to question her fitness to attend this hearing in particular.
Senator @Deborah_ONeill now asking about AAT decisions in 2017 that #Robodebt was unlawful. Did AAT circulate any legal memos or research notes to members? No.
Does the AAT go to any efforts to ensure common issues like #Robodebt are dealt with in a consistent manner to AAT? Decisions are available in a database (named ISYS) to members, there are 'collegiate' conversations...
.@Deborah_ONeill becoming frustrated. AAT claiming their search capacity does not allow for compiling decisions that were 'unlawful'. They clarify that they can actually do a keyword search. My gosh do you get a lot for your public money these days.
O'Neill referring to former member Carney's claim that it there could be up to 500 decisions against #Robodebt. AAT are claiming they cannot manually review decisions because that would be hard and take a while.
Those subject to #Robodebt had to manually find payslips from a decade ago to try and prove their innocence, but AAT can't put extra staff on to compile and investigate. O'Neill is pleading with AAT for what they need to pull their fingers out and get searching.
Senator @hollieahughes attempting to AATsplain that people should have known about the conflict of interest when they were trying to get the Government not to fleece them, and they should have initiated a judicial review.
The Senator makes a series of statements. AAT does not realise they've been asked a question, such is the quality of her pontificating bullshit
.@SenatorSiewert asks on notice for every SS decision that has been varied, set aside, substituted, or sent back to Centrelink for process reasons or to make a new decision.
Siewert asks if AAT had a process following Commonwealth v Amato (Vic Legal aid #Robodebt test case). They say they 'proactively identified and case managed' any current matters that were impacted. Takes on notice the 28 matters. Interesting that these were identified so well!
@Deborah_ONeill asking about s45 of AAT Act, that the tribunal can refer questions of law to the judiciary. Matthies explains that it's used very rarely, and rarely in 'factual' matters. O'Neill asks how #Robodebt does not trigger s45?
AAT says #Robodebt decisions made on evidence and facts rather than on law. O'Neill responds that there were rather many such decisions. AAT President asked on notice to confirm whether he was approached to consider the questions of law in #Robodebt.
'It's through the AAT that the canary in the coal mine was singing...hundreds of thousands of Australians were affected' - @Deborah_ONeill
AAT session concludes significantly overtime. Department of Social Services and Services Australia up next.
AAT session concludes significantly overtime. Department of Social Services and Services Australia up next.
Appearing for DSS today is Deputy Secretary Matt Flavel, who joined DSS after a long holiday and allegations into his conduct while working in Treasury.
themandarin.com.au/123963-treasur…
themandarin.com.au/123963-treasur…
Senator O'Neill getting ahead of any DSS/Services Australia word-games by defining #Robodebt based on the Commonwealth's submission to the class action. Makes direct reference to Secretary Campbell's previous poor performances.
None of the officials appearing today were part of the agency during #Robodebt or joined earlier than 2020 and so can't answer O'Neill's question about when they became personally aware of unlawfulness of #Robodebt. They are asked on notice for Departmental who knew what when.
Yep, that's 4 for 4 of people appearing for DSS and SA who have all joined in 2020. @Deborah_ONeill says it points to massive turnover in Departments following #Robodebt.
12,000+ debts referred to debt collectors since 2019. O'Neill asks how many after Minister Robert's press conference that the practice would end. Taken on notice we weren't on deck etc.
Asking about AAT decision that occurred post-Amato. 'I don't manage the AAT, Senator'. Hughes interrupting and misrepresents that the income averaging scheme was found unlawful and not 'the whole #Robodebt scheme(?)'
O'Neill is asking whether it was appropriate for Services Australia to contest #Robodebt matters in AAT post-Amato. Wasn't on deck can't answer taken on notice etc.
SA counsel Kathryn Haigh is asked about the Legal Services Directions, which articulates the 'model litigant' requirement so trashed by Commonwealth #Robodebt policy and legal strategy.
Haigh also joined Services Australia in 2020 and so can't answer any questions regarding prior counsel 🙃🙃🙃🙃🙃🙃🙃🙃🙃
O'Neill is asking how pursuing debts post-Amato accords with model litigant requirements. No-one will take her up on this, as no-one has read the decision which has been provided to them.
Counsel Haigh describes the model litigant obligation as one of a 'number of considerations' for Services Australia. O'Neill is reading the post-Amato judgement which is a boilerplate one that affirms the Amato decision. 'It's not that complicated' - @Deborah_ONeill
O'Neill asks if SA has 'acted at all times as a model litigant'. SA say they didn't appear at AAT1 level and was a 'customer'-initiated review. Would be interesting to see at what stage of SA's identification of unlawful debts this occurred.
A short intermission while the stream plays some royalty-free Latin Jazz. So relaxing!
While we're waiting, it is incredible that the cast of APS executives responsible for implementing #Robodebt have all apparently moved on to better things and promotions, replaced by those from other underperforming Departments or returning under a cloud of gendered misconduct.
And we're back! DSS have had a read of the AAT1 decision. They don't think there's anything to see here, but they did submit to AAT in the matter. O'Neill asks on notice why Commonwealth didn't contact AAT following Amato.
.@Deborah_ONeill asking about Member Barry, former Liberal adviser, big tobacco lobbyist and details stacking of AAT. O'Neill asking about decisions relied on by SA upholding debt averaging - how many were formal Liberal politicians? Taken on notice
Chair Siewert agrees with Hughes's intervention that questions about appointments to AAT be referred to the Attorney-General's office. "And who is that, today?" asks O'Neill.
Former SA counsel Mussolino is called forward as she's in attendence. Who in SA oversaw the settlement? Michelle Lees did. She is asked by O'Neill if former Secretary Campbell was involved in oversight of class action/refunds. Michelle Lees only joined in 2020 so doesn't know.
Flavell takes on notice the specifics of Campbell's involvement, having been the third person asked the question.
Mussolino was involved in the design of the refund process. A big process including lots of consultation about plain language, which certainly no-one can accuse them of understanding.
.@Deborah_ONeill - 'what lessons have been learned from such a serious failure of justice?'
DSS say the refund process went well, that people are pleased that they're being communicated with so well. What the hell?
DSS say the refund process went well, that people are pleased that they're being communicated with so well. What the hell?
'Customer-centric solutions!' O'Neill is not impressed. Senator Kitching phones into the hearing as promised. SA continue their internal prattle about learnings around customers and stakeholders etc. People DIED because of #Robodebt!
Hughes with a responsible adult interjection that amounts to 'uhhh come ON', interrupting the session again. O'Neill is having trouble asking Mussolino questions without interjections - calls it a 'cover-up'. O'Neill concludes her questioning, Kitching will relieve her.
Senator Hughes is asked if she has any questions for anyone in Services Australia or DSS. She does not. What is the point of attending a three-hour hearing, then? Good grief
Siewert is asking if there are any post-Amato matters before AAT that were withdrawn by SA. How many appeals since Amato? Taken on notice.
Are SA still carrying out income compliance measures on matters pre-2015? Yes, in so many words. Does income averaging play a role in those matters? 'No, we're not raising debts based on income averaging' (bit of a different answer to Robert's 'sole point of proof' distinction?)
.@SenatorSiewert asking if there's now a different approach taken towards the AAT by SA following #Robodebt. Flavell 'no substantial change I'm aware of'
Any questions while we're waiting, Senator Siewert asks Hughes. 'I'm all good', she says, as though she's been offered a cigarette
Appears to be some issues with Kitching's connection which Siewert takes as an opportunity to bring the hearing to a close. Not going to pretend we learned a whole lot other than that the Government is determined to use these hearings as an opportunity to deflect and cover up.
Everyone involved in #Robodebt who hasn't switched Departments and anyone new seems to think they did well or pretends they didn't hear about it in the press. The AAT is hopelessly politically compromised and is barely interested in enforcing their own rules.
We share the despair and incredulity written on the faces of @SenatorSiewert and @Deborah_ONeill at the total failure of institutional will to recognise and take responsibility for the death and destruction wreaked by #Robodebt.
We will not stop until there is justice.
We will not stop until there is justice.
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