Thread by @copscampaign

Having heard from Richard Chessum, a 'non State core participant' (ie someone who was spied on), the #SpyCopsInquiry is due to hear from another former undercover officer, 'HN200', this afternoon.
This is being streamed on youtube, with a ten-minute delay:

This means you'll be able to see it (and our tweets about it) from about 15:15 onwards.

In the meantime, you can read a summary of HN200's deployment on pages 171-174 of the Counsel to the Inquiry's opening statement: ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl…

#spycops

He used the cover name 'Roger Harris' to infiltrate the International Socialists (IS) – the Twickenham branch – and also reported on the Troops Out Movement (TOM).

He was deployed between April 1974 and October 1977.

Rebekah Hummerstone appeared on screen, on behalf of the Inquiry, to ask HN200 questions.
He provided a written witness statement, which you can now download from:
ucpi.org.uk/publications/f…

HN200 joined the @metpolice in the 1960s, and was based in central London, which meant he spent a lot of time policing demonstrations.
He joined Special Branch, and then its 'C Squad' (which investigated left-wing groups)

(1)

@MetPolice He grew a beard, and longer hair – Hummerstone asked him if this was to help him in his work for Special Branch?
He agreed that it was, and referenced the assassination of Sir Robert Carr in 1971....

(2)

@MetPolice <but unfortunately we couldn't figure out what he was saying about this and its connection to his hairstyle choices>

There were some serious technical problems with HN200's connection, and so the #spycopsinquiry was forced to take another ten-minute break to fix these.
(3)

@MetPolice HN200 has lost his fuzzy background, but at least we should now be able to hear him properly.
(4)

@MetPolice She asked again about the facial hair and he confirmed that this was related to his Special Branch role.
He remembers seeing other members of the Branch mixing with activists (acting as activists) in the late 60s, but was never officially informed of this policing tactic.
(5)

@MetPolice He was asked if the #spycops were an “open secret” in Special Branch?

“No, it was kept very close in SB. It's just that I happened to know the people involved and made my own assumptions” he said.
(6)

@MetPolice He was interviewed by 'HN294' (who led the unit in those days), and assumes that he was recommended for the #spycops by someone else.
(7)

@MetPolice Why did he decide to join?
“It was something new” – he explained that he wanted to gain more experience of “different types of policing”
(8)

@MetPolice ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…

[MPS-0739315]
We are shown this report from October 1971, from the Hackney & Islington branch of the International Socialists (IS).
They met in the Rose & Crown pub in Stoke Newington
(9)

@MetPolice There seem to be have been a large number of police engaged in 'observation' of this meeting.
The police collected details and descriptions of those who attended, including car registrations.
(10)

@MetPolice HN200 was asked if this was a typical example of a C Squad report?

No, it was not, he said (wanting to go back to Robert Carr?)
(11)

@MetPolice She asked him about these observations happening in the saloon bar rather than the meeting room instead, and asked him some leading questions about whether the SDS found it easier to access such meetings?
(12)

@MetPolice He was asked about the imapct of his work on his home life and marriage, and why in his witness statement he had talked about it entailing stress.

To be honest, the first year was very stressful” he agrees now.
(13)

@MetPolice He also said in his statement that he was lucky to be sent to infiltrate the IS “as they were not too extreme” and went so far as to say that if he'd ended up in the IMG he would have asked to leave much earlier.
(14)

@MetPolice He called the IS group “very low key” in comparison.

He described himself as a “people person with a light hearted attitude to life” so is unsure he's have fitted in with the Marxists (!)

(15)

@MetPolice It seems that his ideas are based on conversations he had with fellow #spycops who did infiltrate Marxist groups.

(16)

@MetPolice He understood the main purpose of the unit “to gain accurate info about forthcoming public order events which would enable our uniformed colleagues to provide the right levels of protection and policing at those events”
(17)

@MetPolice He was not given any training when he joined the #spycops in 1974; he was already an experienced Special Branch officer.
He spent 6 months in the back office, and picked up more about the work of the unit.
(18)

@MetPolice He says that “supervision was very good and they were very sympathetic to somebody coming into the Squad or someone going off”.
(19)

@MetPolice He also attended the SDS safe house before being deployed himself. He says there wasn't much discussion between the #spycops then but there was some.
They filed reports for their managers every week.
(20)

@MetPolice Why did he visit the safe house before his own deployment?
She asked if this was to help prepare him for what he was “likely to face” and familiarise him with the way the unit worked, and he agreed.
(21)

@MetPolice He was asked about the counter-demo (against the National Front) in Red Lion Square on 15th June 1974. This is the demo at which Kevin Gately was killed.

He remembers the name; he does not recall any discussion of this demo at the safe house.
(22)

@MetPolice He does remember talking to the #spycop who spied on the same IS group before him.

He says that he did see the Home Office Circular (sent to all police forces - on the subject of officers' participation in crime)
(23)

@MetPolice He says he (and the other #spycops ) was given a special number so if he was arrested and taken into custody he could give that to someone at the police station.
(24)

@MetPolice He says he was not given any guidance about how deeply to get involved with those he spied on.

Was he given any advice re sexual relationships while undercover?

“I always assumed it would not be permitted” was his response.
(25)

@MetPolice He used the identity of a deceased child to craft his undercover identity, and in his statement described this as “the normal way” - does he remember who told him this?

(26)

@MetPolice He recalls feeling upset about this - “it wasn't something that sat comfortably with me”) and asking if it was necessary. He cannot remember who he spoke to about this.
(27)

@MetPolice He was told that he needed a birth certificate in order to get a driving licence etc in his fake name. He was not told that this was a relatively new technique, that hadn't always been used by all officers in the unit.

(28)

@MetPolice He doesn't remember being told about other #spycops having problems in the past.

(29)

@MetPolice He was accompanied to Somerset House by a colleague.
He chose the name of a teenager, rather than a baby. He thought this would make it harder for someone to check up on his identity.
(30)

@MetPolice Did he ever consider the possibility that he might one day be confronted with the death certificate? Yes.

(31)

@MetPolice We now know that this happened to Richard Clark (HN297).
He knew that “he had some problems in that they'd actually shown him his death certificate”.

Did this lead HN200 to take any extra care?
“Not really, no” he responded.

(32)

@MetPolice He said he was 'tested' on two occasions
He says such challenges were common – he was challenged at a meeting and accused of being a spy – he “laughed it off”.
(33)

@MetPolice Was he tempted to point the finger at anyone else instead?

He was asked about an incident like this that he mentions in his statement: was he referring to Mike Ferguson?

He doesn't remember who it was.
(34)

@MetPolice He was also tested by his van being interfered with – a fuel cap or similar left off – but he was luckily able to fix it (thereby backing up his cover story)

He also mentioned other anti-surveillance tactics that he used (having learnt them in earlier police work).
(35)

@MetPolice He said that many of the demonstrators failed to realise that the police often agreed with their views (on the Vietnam war and even the “Irish question”).
He said he was personally sympathetic to many of their views, but not their (broad) support for the IRA.
(36)

@MetPolice What did HN200 understand by the term 'subversive'?

“if you have an established system... of democracy.. and somebody tries to interfere with that by surreptitious means, I call that subversive”.

@MetPolice Did he consider the IS 'subversive' – did they plan to overthrow democracy?
He thought they 'interfered' rather than overthrew, but could not recall any examples of the group disrupting democracy in any way ever.

(38)

@MetPolice He attended demos with the IS.
Asked if he ever witnessed any violence, he said

“there was only one that nearly got violent, and that was the closest we came”

“it never actually came to violence”.
(39)

@MetPolice People expected IS to turn up at pretty much every demo, which meant his new identity provided brilliant cover.

“I was told by at least two different groups that we were just glorified paper sellers”.
(40)

@MetPolice He was part of the Twickenham branch of IS, which had between 15-25 members. He was asked about this branch's decision to break away from the rest of the IS.
(41)

@MetPolice He was asked about voting at these meetings: did he participate?

He says his vote was not important, and suggests it wouldn't have made much of a difference; he does not deny voting.
(42)

@MetPolice Was he tasked to not just infiltrate groups but also to disrupt and splinter them? He denies this.
(43)

@MetPolice Why was trade union membership recorded on his reports?
He says this must be because it was discussed at the meeting.
(44)

@MetPolice She noted that the Workers League was a very small organisation, with a total national membership of only 143 people
(45)

@MetPolice He would report on forthcoming demonstrations, with details of coaches/ numbers expected.
(46)

@MetPolice His reports also included employment details of members of the target group – see [UCPI0000017609] for an example. Why?
HN200 explained “it would be normal to put it in”
(47)

@MetPolice One report includes the bank details of the IS Middlesex branch. Hn200 says he is not sure that he authored that report.
(48)

@MetPolice He says that yes, he could have requested access to SB files, but “it wasn't normal” to do so.
(49)

@MetPolice HN200 has repeatedly said that many of his reports are missing, and that he does not recognise all the reports that have his name attached
(50)

@MetPolice The full witness statement of 'Roger Harris' aka HN200 is available for download: ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl…
#spycops
#SpyCopsInquiry
(51)

@MetPolice ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…

We were shown a report [UCPI0000012060] from an IS meeting in a library in Hanwell, in January 1975. HN200 says this is the only time he remembers any discussion about IS getting involved with industrial action.

@MetPolice In his witness statement he made a comment about trade unions being infiltrated, but seems to have forgotten what he said in that.

(53)

@MetPolice He provided Peter Hain as an example of an MP who he remembered reporting on.

He heard him speaking while he was in the SDS, but can't remember details of the meeting when he did so.

(54)

@MetPolice Would he have reported on MPs during his deployment? Hummerstone asked.

“No, I mean I think MPs frequently address meetings and demonstrations and I consider that quite normal” he didn't really answer the question he was asked.
(55)

@MetPolice He claims to remember being told “early on” that his role was reactive, rather than pro-active – he took this to mean that he shouldn't lead the action in anyway, or take up official roles (secretary, treasurer etc) within groups.
(56)

@MetPolice Did others receive the same advice? HN200 imagined they would have done.
(57)

@MetPolice He was made Contact Secretary of the Twickenham IS. He says this meant he had a notebook full of members' contact details, which “could be useful, depending on who they were” but denies having too much influence over the direction of the group.
(58)

@MetPolice Were any concerns raised about #spycops taking such leadership positions within the groups they infiltrated? What did the managers think about this?
(59)

@MetPolice We heard a story about a party and barrels of beer.
He said that he didn't form close friendships with those he spied on. He did socialise with them, and was never told not to by his managers.
(60)

@MetPolice He attended SDS meetings at the safe houses, twice a week (once at each location). The majority of the active #spycops attended these, unless there was a reason they couldn't.
(61)

@MetPolice Reports were submitted on Mondays, with the #spycops notes from that weekend's demonstrations. There would be some group discussion, which he described earlier as “open”. “They were normally fairly light hearted” he recalled.
(62)

@MetPolice Did he learn much about his colleagues deployments and their experiences?

“It was just basically an open forum that people could throw anything in, and obviously some of that affected other people and they might have experienced something similar”.
(63)

@MetPolice He said that the undercovers could raise welfare issues or have a private chat with one of the managers in a different room.
(64)

@MetPolice He would spend around 4 hours at the safe house with his fellow #spycops on Mondays. He estimated that the meetings on Thursdays went on for longer – maybe 6 hours.
Sometimes they cooked lunch, sometimes they had visits (from the Commissioner or other senior officers)
(65)

@MetPolice Did they develop into “quite a tightly knit group” she asked.
“I think the majority probably did”

HN200 told us that the #spycops were able to relax with each other.

They didn't generally drink together in the safe house.
(66)

@MetPolice He was friends with Richard Clark (HN297), who used the name 'Rick Gibson' to infiltrate similar groups.

They were friends before HN200 joined the SDS, and they continued to be friends throughout their careers.
(67)

@MetPolice He normally attended those Thursday meetings.

Occasionally they would go out for “an odd pint” together.

Did they discuss the details of their undercover work?

Not really, claims HN200.

(68)

@MetPolice He knew that HN297 infiltrated the IS, but says he only learnt today that he also reported on the Troops Out Movement (TOM).
(69)

@MetPolice Did he know that Clark had a reputation of being a 'ladies man'?

“Can you recall him being teased about that by other officers at the safe house?”

No, he doesn't.
(70)

@MetPolice Did HN300 have a reputation of being a womaniser?

“I think the answer to that would be yes”
HN200 definitely remembers him!

He doesn't recall 'Jim Pickford' coming to the safe house.
(71)

@MetPolice He doesn't remember whether or not he attended any of the #spycops SDS reunion events.
(72)

@MetPolice He does recall two Met Police Commissioners visiting the safe house during his time there:
Robert Mark and David McNie.
(73)

@MetPolice He thinks that there were a lot of public order problems for the police in the 60s, and much less in the 70s.
He is convinced that this was due to the work of the #spycops unit – noting that it had been set up in 1968.
(74)

@MetPolice That was the end of Hummerstone's questions for this witness.

The #spycopsinquiry then took a short break, to allow core participants' lawyers to submit additional questions for 'Roger'.
(75)

@threadreaderapp unroll

@MetPolice He was asked more about why he recalled that HN300 had a reputation of being a 'womaniser'.

Hummerstone:“How did you become aware of that reputation?”
(76)

@MetPolice HN300 explained “I was in hospital, and he came to visit me...”
but instead of visiting the patient, he had spent his time chatting up one of the nurses.
This was towards the end of HN200's time in the SDS.
(77)

@MetPolice He thinks that other SDS officers shared this assessment of 'Jim Pickford'. He says he has no idea which groups HN300 targetted.
(78)

@MetPolice He was asked if he'd heard anything about HN300 going on to marry someone from his target group?

“I did hear that he married somebody he brought back from eastern climes” was the somewhat bizarre response.
(79)

@MetPolice Mitting thanked HN200 for his evidence.

The hearing ended for the day.
Tomorrow we hear from Celia Stubbs, non State core participant.
(80)