This afternoon's session is starting now. A moving transcript will be shown – with a ten minute delay – on
#spycopsinquiry
#spycops
(1)
#spycopsinquiry
#spycops
(1)
In the meantime you can watch reactions to this morning's evidence – from HN126 (cover name 'Paul Gray') at facebook.com/514251120/vide…
(2)
(2)
You can read the witness statement of HN126: ucpi.org.uk/publications/f…
(3)
(3)
We went back to the subject of the #spycops reports.
HN126 has said that much of his reporting was done by telephone – he confirmed that he would phone the office with urgent intelligence about forthcoming demos, pickets etc.
(4)
HN126 has said that much of his reporting was done by telephone – he confirmed that he would phone the office with urgent intelligence about forthcoming demos, pickets etc.
(4)
He would also make handwritten notes and reports of less urgent intelligence. He can't remember whether he would therefore sometimes report the same thing twice, in both formats.
(5)
(5)
He says that “he went to a hell of a lot of bloody meetings” during his deployment, so was surprised not to see more reports relating to these in his bundle.
(6)
(6)
He was told to infiltrate the SWP – “nothing more specific than that” - and left to get on with it, in whatever way he chose. He was “pointed in the direction” and was based in North West London.
(7)
(7)
He doesn't remember if getting involved in Grunwick was specifically suggested to him.
He said his first task was to get into an organisation that was “worthy of my reporting”.
(8)
He said his first task was to get into an organisation that was “worthy of my reporting”.
(8)
In his statement, 'Paul' said that he believed the SWP to be a revolutionary and 'subversive' group.
But reacted badly to being reminded.
“I don't remember writing this. You've got to remember that this was written for me and not all of it is my type of English”
(9)
But reacted badly to being reminded.
“I don't remember writing this. You've got to remember that this was written for me and not all of it is my type of English”
(9)
But this is a statement that you had a chance to review before signing it?” asked the Inquiry's Counsel.
(10)
(10)
He says his understanding of 'subversion' now would be very different to what it was 45 years ago.
Asked again about the way he's defined the SWP in his own statement, he muttered and said he couldn't help her.
(11)
Asked again about the way he's defined the SWP in his own statement, he muttered and said he couldn't help her.
(11)
Can he help as to whether he saw SWP members doing anything to bring down the system of government?
In response he talked about the anti-fascists who confronted the NF at Brick Lane every Sunday, and about witnessing violence and “unpleasantness” there.
(12)
In response he talked about the anti-fascists who confronted the NF at Brick Lane every Sunday, and about witnessing violence and “unpleasantness” there.
(12)
What does this violence have to do with 'subversion'?
He struggled to explain.
His answer to this included the memorable phrase about subversion: “whatever it is”
(13)
He struggled to explain.
His answer to this included the memorable phrase about subversion: “whatever it is”
(13)
ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
We were shown a Special Branch report [UCPI0000013385} about a meeting at someone's home attended by just 7 branch members.
(14)
We were shown a Special Branch report [UCPI0000013385} about a meeting at someone's home attended by just 7 branch members.
(14)
It was reported that national membership of the party was a low (of 3800) and sales of the Socialist Worker paper lower than normal.
Does he remember why this was?
(15)
Does he remember why this was?
(15)
He said that Margaret Thatcher had just got into power – he'd have expected this to boost SWP membership – and can't recall this situation.
(16)
(16)
Did this lead to any discussion with the #spycops bosses about whether his deployment was justified, or should continue, as a result of this?
(17)
(17)
Rather than answering the question,
HN126 asked who signed off that report, and was told the @ucpinquiry believes it was signed by Mike Ferguson ( the DCI who headed the SDS at the time) in place of the Chief Superintendant.
(18)
HN126 asked who signed off that report, and was told the @ucpinquiry believes it was signed by Mike Ferguson ( the DCI who headed the SDS at the time) in place of the Chief Superintendant.
(18)
@ucpinquiry HN126's line of defence becomes clear. He somewhat aggressively pointed out that in that case the responsibility for all of these reports and their contents lies with the Chief Super, not him.
(19)
(19)
@ucpinquiry Next we looked at para 253 of his own witness statement: ucpi.org.uk/publications/f…
and what he said there about the main role of the SDS in collecting intelligence for Special Branch and the security services.
(20)
and what he said there about the main role of the SDS in collecting intelligence for Special Branch and the security services.
(20)
@ucpinquiry Did he know about the security services' interest in SDS reports at the time?
Yes. A copy of everything the #spycops produced was sent to them. That's what 'Box 500' in the corner of the page refers to.
(21)
Yes. A copy of everything the #spycops produced was sent to them. That's what 'Box 500' in the corner of the page refers to.
(21)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
We saw a report UCPI0000013713
This includes information about the living situation of a member of the Kilburn SWP branch, and about someone being involved in a motorbike accident.
(22)
We saw a report UCPI0000013713
This includes information about the living situation of a member of the Kilburn SWP branch, and about someone being involved in a motorbike accident.
(22)
@ucpinquiry He wanted to clarify that he was based in North West London but in Cricklewood rather than Kilburn.
(23)
(23)
@ucpinquiry He recognised this as an example of the SDS gathering such info at the security services' request.
(24)
(24)
@ucpinquiry In his witness statement (para 111):
He described the SWP as a “leading group in the public order field”.
He said “they had prolific paper sales”, claiming that this was still the case.
They organised and attended lots of demonstrations.
(25)
He described the SWP as a “leading group in the public order field”.
He said “they had prolific paper sales”, claiming that this was still the case.
They organised and attended lots of demonstrations.
(25)
@ucpinquiry He said there was disorder on many occasions and this is the reason that he and the other #spycops infiltrated the SWP
He claimed to have witnessed a lot of violence on the part of SWP members.
(26)
He claimed to have witnessed a lot of violence on the part of SWP members.
(26)
@ucpinquiry The only specific example is Brick Lane. He characterised this as people going there to “throw missiles and get into fights”.
Conveniently forgetting that the main people going there to stir up trouble were the National Front, not those who resisted their violence.
(27)
Conveniently forgetting that the main people going there to stir up trouble were the National Front, not those who resisted their violence.
(27)
@ucpinquiry He said “The NF were very keen on demonstrating in Brick Lane because it was a predominantly Asian area... and the NF wanted to get rid of them”.
He repeated that the violence was “provoked by both sides, and police had to keep them apart”.
(28)
He repeated that the violence was “provoked by both sides, and police had to keep them apart”.
(28)
@ucpinquiry He couldn't recall a single other example of witnessing violence. However on p67 (para 245) of his written statement, he included a story of violence at Grosvenor Square.
In 1968. Years before he joined the unit.
(29)
In 1968. Years before he joined the unit.
(29)
@ucpinquiry He says that he did witness other violence, and would have reported on these, but can't remember them all, and can't find any of those reports.
He says he can't remember what reports he was shown by the Inquiry
(30)
He says he can't remember what reports he was shown by the Inquiry
(30)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
He was reminded of this report [UCPI0000012951] on the arrest of a SWP member.
(31)
He was reminded of this report [UCPI0000012951] on the arrest of a SWP member.
(31)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
The next report [UCPI0000011447] from September 1978 told of a group from the West Hampstead branch of the Anti Nazi League (ANL) organising to drive around and paint out racist graffiti.
(32)
The next report [UCPI0000011447] from September 1978 told of a group from the West Hampstead branch of the Anti Nazi League (ANL) organising to drive around and paint out racist graffiti.
(32)
@ucpinquiry The details of the vehicle used are included. This report would have gone to the security services.
(33)
(33)
@ucpinquiry On p68 of his statement, he described the damage inflicted by the NF thugs around Brick Lane. On the next page, he says he attended the Rock against Racism (RaR) event in Victoria Park in East London.
(34)
(34)
@ucpinquiry This was a large event, with official council permission, which followed a march from Trafalgar Square.
In his statement he says “the vast majority of people attending were peaceful but there were always issues when the NF turned up”
(35)
In his statement he says “the vast majority of people attending were peaceful but there were always issues when the NF turned up”
(35)
@ucpinquiry Next is a memo MPS-726913] written by DCI Ferguson to the S Squad's DCS.
He says he's not sure – maybe he wasn't there, or even in the field by then. We have seen his report dated February 1978. He then changed his mind and agreed that he was there.
(36)
He says he's not sure – maybe he wasn't there, or even in the field by then. We have seen his report dated February 1978. He then changed his mind and agreed that he was there.
(36)
@ucpinquiry He now remembers that RaR events were often targeted for violence by the NF.
But seems unwilling to refer to what the anti-fascists were doing as a form of community self-defence.
(37)
But seems unwilling to refer to what the anti-fascists were doing as a form of community self-defence.
(37)
@ucpinquiry Again, in his statement, he referred to a 'sub-group' amongst his undercover acquaintances who were “looking for trouble” but said that he stuck with a different group, and tried to avoid violent confrontations.
(38)
(38)
@ucpinquiry Did he ever consider confining his reporting to those who were getting involved in violence, rather than the peaceful ones?
No.
.
(39)
No.
.
(39)
@ucpinquiry His excuse was that he had to report on the group as a whole. He admitted that there were SWP members who were entirely peaceful (physically but not verbally he added) and law-abiding
(40)
(40)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
Next we saw a report [UCPI0000015238] about Red Action, a group who were expelled from the SWP for their adoption of violence as a tactic for dealing with the far-right.
(41)
Next we saw a report [UCPI0000015238] about Red Action, a group who were expelled from the SWP for their adoption of violence as a tactic for dealing with the far-right.
(41)
@ucpinquiry Later on in his written statement, he wrote that he suspected that his SWP comrades had “run-ins with the police” but didn't know if any of them were arrested.
(42)
(42)
@ucpinquiry He defined 'run-ins' in an unusual way – describing groups of activists running at police lines to break though them – but denied taking part in this practice himself. He says he participated in things like linking arms in a line.
(43)
(43)
@ucpinquiry He agrees with the content but not the style of words used in many of today's documents
(44)
(44)
@ucpinquiry How did he decide what information was relevant for his reports?
He would include updated information about the people he was spying on.
(45)
He would include updated information about the people he was spying on.
(45)
@ucpinquiry He would make notes about any new people who turned up at SWP meetings, and their motivations for attending.
(46)
(46)
@ucpinquiry He admitted (in para 188 of his statement) that he frequently reported on people whether or not they were members of the party.
Turning up at the meeting made them interesting enough to the security services.
(47)
Turning up at the meeting made them interesting enough to the security services.
(47)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
This next report [UCPI0000015438]
concerns a 15 year0old, Black, school pupil who receives the Socialist Worker paper regularly.
Why report on him?
(48)
This next report [UCPI0000015438]
concerns a 15 year0old, Black, school pupil who receives the Socialist Worker paper regularly.
Why report on him?
(48)
@ucpinquiry HN126 explained that this would have been the first time this child “had come to notice”. He is finding it hard to make sense of the much-redacted document provided.
(49)
(49)
@ucpinquiry "He obviously wasn't a member but the chances are that he probably was within a week or so” was his flippant response to this.
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
The next report [UCPI0000021690]
we saw was about an application to join the Cricklewood branch of the SWP. There are some details of this woman, her employment and some of the SWP activities she has already attended.
(51)
The next report [UCPI0000021690]
we saw was about an application to join the Cricklewood branch of the SWP. There are some details of this woman, her employment and some of the SWP activities she has already attended.
(51)
@ucpinquiry HN126 defensively explained that collecting and collating such information was “part of my job”.
(52)
(52)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
The next report [UCPI0000011859]
Was about a Cricklewood SWP meeting held at Anson Hall, in February 1978
(53)
The next report [UCPI0000011859]
Was about a Cricklewood SWP meeting held at Anson Hall, in February 1978
(53)
@ucpinquiry This was shortly after he made contact with his target group. He explained that this was the only branch of the SWP in the area at the time, but again failed to answer the Inquiry's question: did the SDS view infiltrating the SWP as a 'stepping stone' to other groups?
(54)
(54)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
UCPI0000011354
The next report was from the same branch, in July 1978.
A new branch committee was elected – 'Paul Gray' is listed as the “Socialist Workers organiser”.
(55)
UCPI0000011354
The next report was from the same branch, in July 1978.
A new branch committee was elected – 'Paul Gray' is listed as the “Socialist Workers organiser”.
(55)
@ucpinquiry There were about 10 people at this meeting; he said other meetings sometimes attracted 30-40 people.
(56)
(56)
@ucpinquiry Did he know a committee would be elected at this meeting before he attended it?
He claims not.
And adds that he was “nominated from the floor”
(57)
He claims not.
And adds that he was “nominated from the floor”
(57)
@ucpinquiry ...suggesting that this is because access to a vehicle was essential for the role.
< the obvious question here is: What ever did they do before he turned up?>
(58)
< the obvious question here is: What ever did they do before he turned up?>
(58)
@ucpinquiry Was he treated as a trusted member of the group by this stage?
Yes, and the SDS office were “satisfied” about this.
(59)
Yes, and the SDS office were “satisfied” about this.
(59)
@ucpinquiry Did this mean he then had access to more information?
No.
Supposedly, this was an entirely spontaneous nomination. He claims there was no way for him to excuse himself and gain authorisation (by telephone) before accepting this role.
(60)
No.
Supposedly, this was an entirely spontaneous nomination. He claims there was no way for him to excuse himself and gain authorisation (by telephone) before accepting this role.
(60)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
The next report [UCPI0000013111] was from the following year –1979 -
about the election of a new District Committee. HN126 was elected to this.
(61)
The next report [UCPI0000013111] was from the following year –1979 -
about the election of a new District Committee. HN126 was elected to this.
(61)
@ucpinquiry He is adamant that he did not volunteer. He says it is “probably more significant” that he was asked to do it. He said yes.
(62)
(62)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
Another report, [UCPI0000013123], from a week later, is about that District Committee's meeting in January. This was attended by seven people, including 'Paul Gray'.
(63)
Another report, [UCPI0000013123], from a week later, is about that District Committee's meeting in January. This was attended by seven people, including 'Paul Gray'.
(63)
@ucpinquiry He was tasked with organising regular meetings with branch organisers across the wider area – he explained that he would turn up at their branch meetings and talk to them all about their paper sales.
(64)
(64)
@ucpinquiry This meant he could gather a lot more intelligence, about a lot more people...
“obviously” he says.
(65)
“obviously” he says.
(65)
@ucpinquiry Did this also mean he could influence what the branch organisers did?
He talked about how difficult it was to collect money for the papers.
(66)
He talked about how difficult it was to collect money for the papers.
(66)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
According to this report [UCPI0000013435 ]
A senior figure in the party – the national organiser- addressed this meeting, and told those present that “to sell the Socialist Worker is the most important duty of an SWP member”.
(67)
According to this report [UCPI0000013435 ]
A senior figure in the party – the national organiser- addressed this meeting, and told those present that “to sell the Socialist Worker is the most important duty of an SWP member”.
(67)
@ucpinquiry He was trying to encourage district organisers like 'Paul Gray' to do more work to promote paper sales.
This exhortation was followed by an “embarrassed silence” we are told, and the Inquiry tried to ask some more questions about this...
(68)
This exhortation was followed by an “embarrassed silence” we are told, and the Inquiry tried to ask some more questions about this...
(68)
@ucpinquiry How much influence did he have over decision-making?
How much authority did he have?
ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
The next report [UCPI0000021170] was also about paper sales.
He says he had very little influence despite the impression given in this report.
(69)
How much authority did he have?
ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
The next report [UCPI0000021170] was also about paper sales.
He says he had very little influence despite the impression given in this report.
(69)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
The next report [ UCPI0000011361] is about a 16 year old school-boy who has been elected as Secretary of the Finchley & Barnet branch of the SWP.
(70)
The next report [ UCPI0000011361] is about a 16 year old school-boy who has been elected as Secretary of the Finchley & Barnet branch of the SWP.
(70)
@ucpinquiry Asked where he stood in relation to a SWP branch secretary in the party's hierarchy, he claimed that there were no hierarchies, provoking some laughs in the hearing room,
(71)
(71)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
'Paul Gray' chaired the district committee meeting mentioned in this report [UCPI0000014064]
(72)
'Paul Gray' chaired the district committee meeting mentioned in this report [UCPI0000014064]
(72)
@ucpinquiry There were allegations about a spy infiltrating the Acton branch of the SWP.
People say that he can't be a Special Branch spy as he's not competent enough.
(73)
People say that he can't be a Special Branch spy as he's not competent enough.
(73)
@ucpinquiry Incredibly, HN126 has no recollection of these allegations or this discussion, even though, as he says, this would have been hugely interesting to the SDS management.
(74)
(74)
@ucpinquiry He moved to the Paddington branch of the SWP.
ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
One of the campaigns he spied on – according to this report [UCPI0000014637]
was the Paddington Campaign Against Racism and Fascism.
(75)
ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
One of the campaigns he spied on – according to this report [UCPI0000014637]
was the Paddington Campaign Against Racism and Fascism.
(75)
@ucpinquiry He claims that the IMG were also involved in this, and so it could be their #spycop who reported on this meeting.
<this guy denies everything>
(76)
<this guy denies everything>
(76)
@ucpinquiry There are a few more reports from his time in Paddington.
ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
[UCPI0000017108]
He has said that the Anti Nazi League (ANL) was a very successful recruiting tool for the SWP.
He says it wasn't set up when his deployment began.
(78)
ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
[UCPI0000017108]
He has said that the Anti Nazi League (ANL) was a very successful recruiting tool for the SWP.
He says it wasn't set up when his deployment began.
(78)
@ucpinquiry UCPI0000011970]
ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
However the next report, from a meeting in March 1978, near the start of his deployment, is about the new ANL. This meeting was attended by about 35 people.
(79)
ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
However the next report, from a meeting in March 1978, near the start of his deployment, is about the new ANL. This meeting was attended by about 35 people.
(79)
@ucpinquiry All of their names are redacted, so not much help to a former officer's failing memory (or anyone else).
(80)
(80)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
We saw some more reports featuring the ANL, including the Kilburn & Queens Park branch, who were planning an anti-racist festival in Kilburn Grange park on 23rd July 1978.
[UCPI0000011301]
(81)
We saw some more reports featuring the ANL, including the Kilburn & Queens Park branch, who were planning an anti-racist festival in Kilburn Grange park on 23rd July 1978.
[UCPI0000011301]
(81)
@ucpinquiry 'Paul Gray' is listed as associated with the West Hampstead branch of the ANL. He says he doesn't remember being on this organising committee at all.
(82)
(82)
@ucpinquiry He has now seen a leaflet, but nothing else that reminds him of that time.
45 years ago, as he has said several times today...
(83)
45 years ago, as he has said several times today...
(83)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
[UCPI0000011497]
HN126 has quibbled about various details throughout the day, and almost crowed at times about how groups changed their names or whatever. He doesn't come across as a credible witness.
(84)
[UCPI0000011497]
HN126 has quibbled about various details throughout the day, and almost crowed at times about how groups changed their names or whatever. He doesn't come across as a credible witness.
(84)
@ucpinquiry Although he was on the organising committee, he says that he avoided taking on responsibility.
(85)
(85)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
The West Hampstead branch of the ANL held a general meeting in November 1978, which is covered in this report [UCPI0000012960]
This is about an amalgamation of this group and a local group of Camden Against Racism.
Does he remember this?
No.
(86)
The West Hampstead branch of the ANL held a general meeting in November 1978, which is covered in this report [UCPI0000012960]
This is about an amalgamation of this group and a local group of Camden Against Racism.
Does he remember this?
No.
(86)
@ucpinquiry They decided to call it Camden Against Racism/ Anti Nazi League – West Hampstead amd Hampstead group. He agreed that this was a very long name.
(87)
(87)
@ucpinquiry Again, the name 'Paul Gray' appears – he is listed as an official delegate to the central committee of Camden Against Racism (CAR).
(88)
(88)
@ucpinquiry He quibbles when asked about being 'elected' and claims he was 'delegated'.
She patiently points out that in the notes he is described as being 'elected' to be a delegate.
<sigh>
(89)
She patiently points out that in the notes he is described as being 'elected' to be a delegate.
<sigh>
(89)
@ucpinquiry He seems proud of his record of taking up this string of posts within the ANL.
Did he choose to occupy these positions and/or was he encouraged to do so?
He says he can't remember being 'encouraged to do anything' but recalls feeling supported in whatever he did.
(90)
Did he choose to occupy these positions and/or was he encouraged to do so?
He says he can't remember being 'encouraged to do anything' but recalls feeling supported in whatever he did.
(90)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
According to the report [UCPI0000013002], this committee would be chaired by different people – three meetings each – and so 'Paul Gray' chaired the next three fortnightly meetings of the group.
(91)
According to the report [UCPI0000013002], this committee would be chaired by different people – three meetings each – and so 'Paul Gray' chaired the next three fortnightly meetings of the group.
(91)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
From further reports – eg [UCPI0000013135]:
This seems to have led to him then attending meetings of the Brent Trades Council, and the Co-ordinating Committee of the NW London ANL.
(92)
From further reports – eg [UCPI0000013135]:
This seems to have led to him then attending meetings of the Brent Trades Council, and the Co-ordinating Committee of the NW London ANL.
(92)
@ucpinquiry Finally, we returned to his written statement and what he had to say about the ANL in that – he calls them “an anti-fascist rather than a subversive group”.
(93)
(93)
@ucpinquiry He went on to say that both the ANL and the SWP would get involved in public disorder and violence, especially when the NF were involved.
(94)
(94)
@ucpinquiry He reminded the Inquiry that SWP members were all members of the ANL too. However there were many ANL members who didn't join the SWP.
(95)
(95)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
[UCPI0000011380]
In August 1978, about 15 people attended an ANL branch meeting.
He was asked if he was aware of the contents of this report.
He was asked more about the ANL and about the regular Sunday morning demos at Brick Lane.
(96)
[UCPI0000011380]
In August 1978, about 15 people attended an ANL branch meeting.
He was asked if he was aware of the contents of this report.
He was asked more about the ANL and about the regular Sunday morning demos at Brick Lane.
(96)
@ucpinquiry He says he continued to attend ANL meetings throughout his deployment but that the group 'fizzled out'.
Did this prompt any reconsideration about them as a target?
That would have been for the senior officers to do.
(97)
Did this prompt any reconsideration about them as a target?
That would have been for the senior officers to do.
(97)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
There is one last report from Kilburn: [UCPI0000011355] from August 1978.
Two members of the Kilburn & Queens Park ANL are living in a squat.
(98)
There is one last report from Kilburn: [UCPI0000011355] from August 1978.
Two members of the Kilburn & Queens Park ANL are living in a squat.
(98)
@ucpinquiry An article was attached, from a recent issue of 'Women's Voice' (another SWP publication) – entitled 'Organise your street against the Nazis'.
(99)
(99)
@ucpinquiry Why would Special Branch be interested in Women's Voice?
“It's all to do with public order, that's what our remit was” says HN126, claiming that they planned street meetings in Kilburn High Street.
(100)
“It's all to do with public order, that's what our remit was” says HN126, claiming that they planned street meetings in Kilburn High Street.
(100)
@ucpinquiry He claimed that he was trying to provide a good overall picture for C squad and MI5. He says that WV organising vs the Nazis is them “sliding sideways” - as if they shouldn't be involved in this kind of thing.
(101)
(101)
@ucpinquiry We moved on to the next topic
ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
[UCPI0000021193] He claims he wouldn't have attended this Monday meeting as he would either be at the safe-house or his cover employment that day
<this caused some bewilderment in the hearing room>
(102)
ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
[UCPI0000021193] He claims he wouldn't have attended this Monday meeting as he would either be at the safe-house or his cover employment that day
<this caused some bewilderment in the hearing room>
(102)
@ucpinquiry He says he learnt about Blair Peach's death on TV. He claims it was never discussed by the SDS in their safe-house.
He says that he doesn't think any of the #spycops were in Southall that day.
(103)
He says that he doesn't think any of the #spycops were in Southall that day.
(103)
@ucpinquiry Later on, he said that he didn't know about Celia Stubbs (or her incessant campaigning for justice about Blair's murder) until very recently.
(104)
(104)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
We saw a report [UCPI0000021313] from an aggregate meeting of the SWP's NW London district.
A leaflet about Peach's funeral is attached.
(105)
We saw a report [UCPI0000021313] from an aggregate meeting of the SWP's NW London district.
A leaflet about Peach's funeral is attached.
(105)
@ucpinquiry Did he attend it?
He refused to answer this question, instead demanding that the Inquiry tell him what day of the week this happened (45 years ago).
On being told it was a Wednesday, he said he must have been “at work” that day.
(106)
He refused to answer this question, instead demanding that the Inquiry tell him what day of the week this happened (45 years ago).
On being told it was a Wednesday, he said he must have been “at work” that day.
(106)
@ucpinquiry Asked about attending a picket held on the eve of the first inquest, his response:
“I don't recollect that day, or any other day...”
ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
[UCPI0000013498]
“I don't recollect that day, or any other day...”
“I don't recollect that day, or any other day...”
ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
[UCPI0000013498]
“I don't recollect that day, or any other day...”
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
We were shown a report [UCPI0000013520] showing somebody at Peach's funeral.
Why submit a photo of someone from such a freely available publication?
(108)
We were shown a report [UCPI0000013520] showing somebody at Peach's funeral.
Why submit a photo of someone from such a freely available publication?
(108)
@ucpinquiry He asked if this was of a public figure, or someone else?
Undeflected, Counsel asked him again: why submit a photo that is freely available?
“It wasn't 'freely available' in New Scotland Yard” (or the security service) he retorted.
(109)
Undeflected, Counsel asked him again: why submit a photo that is freely available?
“It wasn't 'freely available' in New Scotland Yard” (or the security service) he retorted.
(109)
@ucpinquiry ....Going on to use the fact that this report somehow survived the tender care of Met's 'archiving' (or more likely MI5's archive) as proof that it was valuable and worthwhile (!)
(110)
(110)
@ucpinquiry after another break:
In terms of reporting on children, would the way they behaved at demos have an effect on whether or not they were reported on?
HN126 says he doesn't know.
(111)
In terms of reporting on children, would the way they behaved at demos have an effect on whether or not they were reported on?
HN126 says he doesn't know.
(111)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
We saw a report from May 1978, [UCPI0000011275], which mentions an ANL demo in Brixton and includes a photograph of a teenaged school-boy.
We cannot see the photo but it appears that the child has been identified as a member of the Finchley ANL
(112)
We saw a report from May 1978, [UCPI0000011275], which mentions an ANL demo in Brixton and includes a photograph of a teenaged school-boy.
We cannot see the photo but it appears that the child has been identified as a member of the Finchley ANL
(112)
@ucpinquiry In his own statement, HN126 says that this child already had an RF number and a “lengthy criminal record”
He was relatively tall (6') and this seems to have been used as a justification for the attention the police paid to him.
(113)
He was relatively tall (6') and this seems to have been used as a justification for the attention the police paid to him.
(113)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
However according to the (April) report we saw earlier [UCPI0000011970] about this same boy, on which the words 'no trace' appear.
This means he did not have an existing RF number or Special Branch record at that time.
(114)
However according to the (April) report we saw earlier [UCPI0000011970] about this same boy, on which the words 'no trace' appear.
This means he did not have an existing RF number or Special Branch record at that time.
(114)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
In a slightly later April report [UCPI0000011997] he is said to have some 'mentions' by his name – HN126 explained that this meant he'd started coming to their attention but they still hadn't opened a file at that point.
(115)
In a slightly later April report [UCPI0000011997] he is said to have some 'mentions' by his name – HN126 explained that this meant he'd started coming to their attention but they still hadn't opened a file at that point.
(115)
@ucpinquiry Surely if he already had a (“lengthy and violent”) criminal record he'd already have a Special Branch Registry file? she asked .
HN126 claims it is entirely possible that he didn't.
Nobody in the hearing room finds that plausible.
(116)
HN126 claims it is entirely possible that he didn't.
Nobody in the hearing room finds that plausible.
(116)
@ucpinquiry He went on to say that the boy was “quite proud” of his record.
ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
We learnt more about this boy's previous in this report [UCPI000001295].
(117)
ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
We learnt more about this boy's previous in this report [UCPI000001295].
(117)
@ucpinquiry Is the alleged obstruction (of a police officer) mentioned here what 'Paul Gray' means by a lengthy violent criminal record?
(118)
(118)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
The next report [UCPI0000021004]detailed a 'fist fight' between this boy and his brother, and his move out of the family home.
(119)
The next report [UCPI0000021004]detailed a 'fist fight' between this boy and his brother, and his move out of the family home.
(119)
@ucpinquiry “He was first out of the bus” when they went to confront the NF at Brick Lane, recalls HN126. He claims this boy liked to get physically 'stuck in' against the fascists.
He says this wouldn't necessarily have been reported unless he was arrested.
(120)
He says this wouldn't necessarily have been reported unless he was arrested.
(120)
@ucpinquiry Was he arrested? Counsel wondered
HN126 says he might not have known about it if he was.
And other #spycops worked in other parts of London, so they wouldn't either.
(121)
HN126 says he might not have known about it if he was.
And other #spycops worked in other parts of London, so they wouldn't either.
(121)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
After looking at this report [UCPI000020068],
he said that the leafleting of schools was done by 'unruly' people and was 'unpleasant' for the children.
(122)
After looking at this report [UCPI000020068],
he said that the leafleting of schools was done by 'unruly' people and was 'unpleasant' for the children.
(122)
@ucpinquiry According to his reporting about School Kids Against the Nazis (SKAN).
“Although SKAN's members were young, they were just as violent as any other anti-fascist group”
(123)
“Although SKAN's members were young, they were just as violent as any other anti-fascist group”
(123)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
[UCPI0000011997] is a report of a SKAN meeting, attended by 40-45 school-children from across London.
(124)
[UCPI0000011997] is a report of a SKAN meeting, attended by 40-45 school-children from across London.
(124)
@ucpinquiry Again, although this report is attributed to HN126, he claims it can't have been him, as it didn't take place in North West London but instead in W14.
He then said “well I wouldn't have been there would I?” - saying he was too old - sounding clever with himself
(125)
He then said “well I wouldn't have been there would I?” - saying he was too old - sounding clever with himself
(125)
@ucpinquiry However we can see that this meeting was attended by someone from the ANL, there were speakers from RaR and other groups/ branches.
There is nothing to suggest that only children were at this meeting.
(126)
There is nothing to suggest that only children were at this meeting.
(126)
@ucpinquiry SKAN planned to travel by underground to protest the Nazis together.
He sounds increasingly unhelpful
<and says sorry,
but doesn't sound it>
and says he has no recollection of this report.
(127)
He sounds increasingly unhelpful
<and says sorry,
but doesn't sound it>
and says he has no recollection of this report.
(127)
@ucpinquiry What groups did he have in mind when he mentioned “other anti-fascist groups”? The ANL and the SWP, he says.
(128)
(128)
@ucpinquiry He was next shown some footage of Hackney SKAN.
See
His reaction: The film was made, it was being done for the cameras.
(129)
See
His reaction: The film was made, it was being done for the cameras.
(129)
@ucpinquiry Asked about the legitimacy of spying on school kids, he was unrepentant.
If "there was a physical threat as well as a political threat" he felt it was justified.
None of his supervisors ever pulled him up, so he still thinks he did the right thing.
(130)
If "there was a physical threat as well as a political threat" he felt it was justified.
None of his supervisors ever pulled him up, so he still thinks he did the right thing.
(130)
@ucpinquiry We saw another report [UCPI0000021267] featuring a Barnet boy, who was involved in protests (about uniform etc) at his school. There is a photo attached of him.
ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
'Gray' complained that he can't see the photo so can't remember anything.
(131)
ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
'Gray' complained that he can't see the photo so can't remember anything.
(131)
@ucpinquiry Again he is listed as 'no trace'
<meaning that he did not already have a Special Branch RF number>
(132)
<meaning that he did not already have a Special Branch RF number>
(132)
@ucpinquiry He added that he himself attended the SWP's Skegness event – this attracted thousands of people – he thinks this boy speaking at the rally there is one of the most noteworthy things in this report.
(133)
(133)
@ucpinquiry He used the word 'effeminate' to describe this boy.
Again, his superiors haven't challenged this language, so it must be ok
HN126 again asked whose signature was at the bottom of the sheet
<It's unclear why his lawyer hasn't been able to help him look through the evidence>
(134)
Again, his superiors haven't challenged this language, so it must be ok
HN126 again asked whose signature was at the bottom of the sheet
<It's unclear why his lawyer hasn't been able to help him look through the evidence>
(134)
@ucpinquiry He told the Inquiry that he never joined any trade union, and didn't get very involved with trade union activity – just went to demos with his SWP comrades.
However many SWP members were also trade unionists, involved in local Trades Councils etc
(135)
However many SWP members were also trade unionists, involved in local Trades Councils etc
(135)
@ucpinquiry Barnet Trades Council is mentioned in the next report
As is somebody's membership of the National Association of Teachers in Further and Higher Education. Why?
He said something about tying up loose strings and then
“You would have to ask my superiors that”.
(136)
As is somebody's membership of the National Association of Teachers in Further and Higher Education. Why?
He said something about tying up loose strings and then
“You would have to ask my superiors that”.
(136)
@ucpinquiry He was the one who decided which details to include in his reports, and what was relevant.
Why include this person's membership and details of their employment?
(137)
Why include this person's membership and details of their employment?
(137)
@ucpinquiry “They didn't tear it up”
He suggests again that because not all copies of this document have been shredded, it must have been acceptable.
(138)
He suggests again that because not all copies of this document have been shredded, it must have been acceptable.
(138)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
The next report [UCPI0000016795] concerned an SWP member in Kensal Rise and his involvement in a dispute on a building site.
(139)
The next report [UCPI0000016795] concerned an SWP member in Kensal Rise and his involvement in a dispute on a building site.
(139)
@ucpinquiry Quick as a flash, HN126 clains this can't be anything to do with him as it's from Kensal Rise and that wasn't his patch (despite being adjacent to where he definitely was based).
(140)
(140)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
The next report [UCPI0000021645] is definitely from his area: Cricklewood.
It tells us about someone who was involved in trade union activities at his workplace, and in the Troops Out Movement (TOM), with a photo attached.
(141)
The next report [UCPI0000021645] is definitely from his area: Cricklewood.
It tells us about someone who was involved in trade union activities at his workplace, and in the Troops Out Movement (TOM), with a photo attached.
(141)
@ucpinquiry He says it's nothing to do with his trade unionism.
If that's nothing to do with it, why include it?
“I can't tell you now” was his reply
(142)
If that's nothing to do with it, why include it?
“I can't tell you now” was his reply
(142)
@ucpinquiry She went on to speak about the two strands of the SDS's remit – public order and collecting information for the security services.
Which one did trade union activities fall into?
(143)
Which one did trade union activities fall into?
(143)
@ucpinquiry He claimed that “the trade union part of it is just topping and tailing a report”.
Forgetting that this is not a trial, HN126 challenged the Inquiry's Counsel to “prove different”.
(144)
Forgetting that this is not a trial, HN126 challenged the Inquiry's Counsel to “prove different”.
(144)
@ucpinquiry He claims that he had never before heard of trade unionists being regarded as 'troublesome' by the police...
He also said he never heard about #blacklisting happening, he didn't know that Special Branch etc were involved in that....
(145)
He also said he never heard about #blacklisting happening, he didn't know that Special Branch etc were involved in that....
(145)
@ucpinquiry He says he was never tasked with collecting trade union information or reporting that kind of detail about people.
But he'd include such material in his reports, just to 'round them out'.
(146)
But he'd include such material in his reports, just to 'round them out'.
(146)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
We were shown another report [UCPI0000015145] about an individual member of the SWP, who's also involved in the Gay Liberation Front, and is described as “an avid reader of Gay News”.
(147)
We were shown another report [UCPI0000015145] about an individual member of the SWP, who's also involved in the Gay Liberation Front, and is described as “an avid reader of Gay News”.
(147)
@ucpinquiry They were both part of the Kilburn branch in 1980, so why does he now not think this report was his?
He says he can't explain – despite having seen the unredacted version of this report in the past.
(148)
He says he can't explain – despite having seen the unredacted version of this report in the past.
(148)
@ucpinquiry He says that he would have delivered copies of Socialist Worker to him every week, but still denies that this report is definitely his.
He says if only he could see the whole thing he'd be able to help.
(149)
He says if only he could see the whole thing he'd be able to help.
(149)
@ucpinquiry Why would seeing it all assist his memory? Counsel asked, quite reasonably.
We know it's an SDS report. Why was his sexuality relevant and included in the report?
(150)
We know it's an SDS report. Why was his sexuality relevant and included in the report?
(150)
@ucpinquiry This next report [UCPI0000015536] is highly redacted – but included lots of details of this SWP members' “private sexual activities”.
ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
(151)
ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
(151)
@ucpinquiry He withdrew from the field in around 1982. He says that at this time, he was put in a room and given the task of updating a stack of (Special Branch) files.
(152)
(152)
@ucpinquiry We saw two reports from this period:
ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
[UCPI0000018131]
and
ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
[UCPI0000018134]
(153)
ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
[UCPI0000018131]
and
ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
[UCPI0000018134]
(153)
@ucpinquiry Again, he claimed that he moved to Paddington then patronised the Inquiry some more - “there you go” - he sounded very smug with this excuse.
He feigned surprise at seeing the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND) on the document.
(154)
He feigned surprise at seeing the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND) on the document.
(154)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
Again he used his 'topping and tailing' excuse when asked about another report [UCPI0000018099] featuring a school student, and claims that these reports are “not a good example” of one of his “up-to-date reports”.
(155)
Again he used his 'topping and tailing' excuse when asked about another report [UCPI0000018099] featuring a school student, and claims that these reports are “not a good example” of one of his “up-to-date reports”.
(155)
@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
HN126 already disputed any connection with the next report [UCPI0000018100] and is asked why not?
He says the “date at the top, to start with”
(157)
HN126 already disputed any connection with the next report [UCPI0000018100] and is asked why not?
He says the “date at the top, to start with”
(157)
@ucpinquiry We know -from security service records - that HN126 had been withdrawn from the field by 12th May (39 years ago exactly), and this report is dated 13th May.
<which is exactly when he just said he was sat in a back office with a big stack of reports to update>
(158)
<which is exactly when he just said he was sat in a back office with a big stack of reports to update>
(158)
@ucpinquiry He says he received no guidance about drinking on the job.
But the #spycops were encouraged to socialise.
He says it was easier to limit his drinking as people didn't buy rounds in those days and wouldn't have seen exactly how much he drank.
(159)
But the #spycops were encouraged to socialise.
He says it was easier to limit his drinking as people didn't buy rounds in those days and wouldn't have seen exactly how much he drank.
(159)
@ucpinquiry And his van meant he often drove around at the end of the night, dropping activists off at their homes (as they didn't like catching the bus?)
He also said that the beer was very weak in those days.
(160)
He also said that the beer was very weak in those days.
(160)
@ucpinquiry In his statement, he mentioned some SWP members who he often visited.
He says they weren't close friends but sometimes invited him in for tea – he delivered papers to them.
(161)
He says they weren't close friends but sometimes invited him in for tea – he delivered papers to them.
(161)
@ucpinquiry After this, the #spycopsinquiry took a final break of 15 mins, to allow those listening to submit any additional questions for today's #spycops officer.
(162)
(162)
@ucpinquiry The Counsel to the Inquiry will be asking him another 5 questions before we finish today.
<it has been a very long day for all of us>
(163)
<it has been a very long day for all of us>
(163)
@ucpinquiry Q: Why did he think the Day of the Jackal was the inspiration for their practice of stealing dead children's identities?
(164)
(164)
@ucpinquiry A: Because he saw -on wikipedia- that the film had just come out a few years earlier, and made that assumption.
< not sure if he knew that it came out as a book first, in 1969>
(165)
< not sure if he knew that it came out as a book first, in 1969>
(165)
@ucpinquiry That anonymous letter we heard about earlier...
Q: Did you ever tell your ex-wife that the #spycops were infiltrating the far-right?
A: “She didn't get it from me, because we weren't in those days”.
(166)
Q: Did you ever tell your ex-wife that the #spycops were infiltrating the far-right?
A: “She didn't get it from me, because we weren't in those days”.
(166)
@ucpinquiry We heard that Gilbert Kelland was the Assistant Commissioner for Crime from 1977-1984.
It turned out that HN126 was thinking of Maskell.
(167)
It turned out that HN126 was thinking of Maskell.
(167)
@ucpinquiry Just to clarify the identity of the DAC who visited the unit: – there are 3 possible candidates from that time:
Vic Gilbert ceased that role in 1977
next was Robert Bryan
who was replaced in 1981 by Colin Hewitt.
HN126 thinks it must have been Bryan who he saw.
(168)
Vic Gilbert ceased that role in 1977
next was Robert Bryan
who was replaced in 1981 by Colin Hewitt.
HN126 thinks it must have been Bryan who he saw.
(168)
@ucpinquiry He said something earlier about the Jackal run being a nick-name used within the SDS – he doesn't remember any more about this.
(169)
(169)
@ucpinquiry He has described writing postcards to those he'd spied on, after disappearing from their lives and leaving the field. He confirmed that this wasn't his idea; it was something he was instructed to do by a "supervisor".
(170)
(170)
@ucpinquiry He mentioned hearing rumours about Rick Clarke being confronted with his death certificate as a direct result of the sexual relationships he had whilst undercover.
(171)
(171)
@ucpinquiry He says he wasn't mixing with SDS officers at that time – before he joined the unit - so the rumours must have been within “Special Branch as a whole”.
(172)
(172)
@ucpinquiry Was this 'cautionary tale' discussed in the SDS during his time in the unit?
He says “I think everybody had forgotten”
by the time he joined,
claiming they were all just getting on with the job and not talking about events of the recent past.
(173)
He says “I think everybody had forgotten”
by the time he joined,
claiming they were all just getting on with the job and not talking about events of the recent past.
(173)
@ucpinquiry He said that there were still plenty of people in the SDS who had served alongside Rick Clarke.
(174)
(174)
@ucpinquiry Mr Saunders (one of the State's lawyers) asked him a few questions about the format of the SB reports, and brought one {UCPIU0000011997] up on screen as an illustration.
'Paul' enthusiastically explained the kind of info that would usually appear by 'Subject' etc
(175)
'Paul' enthusiastically explained the kind of info that would usually appear by 'Subject' etc
(175)
@ucpinquiry Would this have been filed on the SWP file?
Probably. Possibly. Yet again, HN126 tells us “a chat with somebody who worked in the office would give you the answer straight away”
<ignoring that his own evidence was that he spent at least 6 months based in the office himself>
(176)
Probably. Possibly. Yet again, HN126 tells us “a chat with somebody who worked in the office would give you the answer straight away”
<ignoring that his own evidence was that he spent at least 6 months based in the office himself>
(176)
@ucpinquiry Mitting asked about the matter of these 'up to date reports' – he expressly described one of these as definitely his, dealt with the next two as if they were his but disavowed the fourth/ last one....
(177)
(177)
@ucpinquiry Mitting said he would try to track down the other 22 reports which HN126 believes he authored at this time, and calls “more standard examples”.
Finally he thanked the witness for his evidence.
That was it for today.
We are all a bit tired
(178)
Finally he thanked the witness for his evidence.
That was it for today.
We are all a bit tired
(178)
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