Thread by @shevereshtus

I have seen a lot of confusion regarding Zionism and it's relationship to Judaism recently, so I made an in-depth thread to explain the basic differences & similarities.

When someone posts that 'Judaism & Zionism are indivisible part of each others' or that 'Torah was always Zionists', it makes a lot of Orthodox Jews uncomfortable, but not for the reasons you might think. And it makes a lot of non-religious Jews look at Orthodox Jews askance.

Defining terms is one of the most important tool prior to a debate or discussion, and the fact that there is a lack of defining terms when it comes to Zionism leads to confusion and unnecessary frictions.

There are actually three different discourses on Zionism:

1) Zionism as a political question
2) Religious Zionism
3) Ideological Zionism

'Zionism as Political Question' is what is almost exclusively debated and discussed on social media & the public square, but when it comes to Orthodox spaces, it's almost always the latter two.

First, let's define them:

1) "ZaaPQ" can be summed up as a 'Does Israel have a right to exist as a Jewish State'. That's it. Doesn't have anything to do with settlements, or going back to 67 lines, etc.

It's a simple yes (you're a zionist) or no (you're not a zionist) question.

2) Religious Zionism asks 'Do you follow Rav Kook & believe the State is part of the 'beginning of the Messianic Era'. Those who disagree (almost the entirety of the Orthodox world) believe it will ultimately be replaced. Those who agree believe it will be ruled by Mashiach.

3) Ideological Zionism is the belief in either Herzl/Ben-Gurion or Jabotinsky's Zionism. The former is that Jews would transform into Hebrews, another nation living on its land, without connection to Judaism. The latter is similar, but with a bigger connection to our history.

Ideological Zionism:
Let's start with Herzl's. This is today, by far, the most marginal of views. It is only truly espoused by Meretz and parts of Labour, and represents a tiny minority of Israeli society, stereotyped as the leftist, affluent Tel Avivian who reads Haaretz.

Their vision can be best summed up by Ben Gurion's statement said the State would be complete 'The day a Jewish policeman arrests a Jewish prostitute on Shabbat'. There are variations on the quote, but it can all be summed up as 'when Jews are like non-Jews, but on our own land'.

Jabotinsky's Zionism, on the other hand, is the most prevalent ideological zionism that exist today in Israel. It is the view that is espoused by the Likud and others, where it's not enough for Jews to live in the Land, but we need to be strongly connected to our national history

In a sense, that is the most common in secular Jewish circles regarding Israel in the diaspora, but most people have adopted those ideas by osmosis & are unaware of the ideological origins of what they believe, have never read Jabotinksy, etc.. It's only an outgrowth of 'ZaaPQ'

There are other, smaller types of Zionism, like Synthetic, Practical, Socialist, etc... but they are irrelevant to our discussion. If anyone, they are all but an academic discussion and most people will never encounter those ideologies, even in Israel.

Religious Zionism
This revolves around questions such as 'Will Mashiach sit in the Knesset, is it a mitsvah to pay your taxes, is the post office holy?' Those who follow R'Kook say yes. They're mostly those associated with the knitted kippot movement & parts of Modern Orthodoxy

Ultimately they represent a minority of the Orthodox world, even the so-called right-wing/Chardal movement of the Dati Leumi is starting to be disillusioned with the State & are starting to adopt a more anti-Zionist view of the State, espoused by the rest of the Orthodox world.

When it comes to Orthodoxy, you have two major movements within Anti-Zionism: the so-called 'Non-Zionists', and the pure anti-Zionists.

The non-Zionists interact with the State, vote, pay taxes, they simply don't believe the State is holy & it'll be replaced when Mashiach comes

The smallest, fringe view in the Orthodox world is what is called pure religious antizionism. It's the Satmar approach of 'Trayfe medina' where there's no discussion with the State whatsoever, it needs to be dismantled whenever possible, and is preventing Mashiach from coming.

They are often used as a token by political anti-zionists, but the fact is that aside from Neturei Karta, even Satmar would agree that Israel should not be dismantled if it's gonna lead to massacres and Jews being kicked out of the land as a result. So, it's really status quo.

The thing is that between the Religious Zionists, the Non-Zionists and Anti-zionists, *everyone* rejects ideological zionism.

Even the religious zionists disagree with the idea that Jews should be just another people on its land, or that our connection is historical.

The religious view in terms of the the Land of Israel is:

This is our Land. It's not because of historical arguments, it's not because of the Balfour Declaration, San Remo or reparations for the Shoah, it's because of the Torah says so.

This is true across all three groups.

Zionism as a Political Question
Finally, the most discussed subject part of the debate, yet the least understood.

This is how you can have people who would describe themselves as antizionists be labelled by others as extreme zionists, or vice-versa. For example:

Imagine Shimon, a Hassidic Jew. He absolutely does not consider himself a Zionist, rejects anything that is outside of Torah. He also 100% believes that the State has to exist, that Judea and Samaria are ours, and we need to keep our land & defend ourselves.

So, zionist or not?

Ultimately, he is Schrodinger's zionist.

He exists in a state where he is, concurrently, an anti-zionist (ideologically), a non-zionist (religiously) and a strong zionist (as a political question)

And this has been causing a lot of unnecessary frictions and blocks on Jtwitter.

Ultimately this is a very nuanced discoursed that is rarely addressed as such, both from non-religious Jews who don't understand religious anti/non-zionsim, and from religious Jews who refuse the label not understand where they come from.

And there is no reason why it should.

In Short
Anti-Zionism as a political question means the rejection of Jews having a State
Anti-Zionism in religious context means the rejection of the idea that the State is holy
Anti-Zionism in ideological context means the rejection that the Land of Israel is divorced from Torah

In Conclusion
We are a diverse people with diverse views. Some religious, some not. Some left-wing, some right-wing, some centrists. Some don't care.

Let's make sure we do not divide ourselves based on misunderstandings when we all agree on the basics, but stay strong & united.