Thread by @TheUfoJoe

1 @g_knapp & Dr. Colm Kelleher begin the show.

Knapp: The last four years has brought so much change. NYT publishes story on AATIP. Reid, Elizondo and so on. But it was WRONG. Primary program was AAWSAP with BAASS as the contractor. 50 hired. Largest database on UFOs.

2 Not just UFOs but Skinwalker Ranch & related phenomena. Hard to believe but true. Many, including folks in ufology refuse to cover it. Bigelow announced the BAASS contract on C2C back in 2007 (or 2008?). Tic Tac investigation was AAWSAP, not AATIP.

3 Kelleher talks about the four year media coverage & says most of media has been on 5% of what the program was about. Origins went back to Vallee, Puthoff, Bigelow, Schuessler & 2007-2008 & brainstorming on best way to study this. Usual way is nuts and bolts but the other side

4 of UFO coin is human effects, which can be messy. That includes physiological effects, pathological effects, sometimes, medical effects. Paralysis, extreme heat, cold, powerful odors, metallic tastes, etc... You need an analytical framework & if medical effects, you need

5 physician scientists. We decided to go sensor-driven data but also human effects in the mix. The old metaphor of blind man and element. Sensor-driven data only give you info. on elephant's tail but if you get that AND medical effects, you can get both hands on elephant and

6 somewhat of a clearer picture. UFO groups out there may have different reactions to book bc a lot of complexity in the book but once it's assimilated, I think it will be accepted. (That was Kelleher).

7 Licatski (JL) joins in.

JL: It was difficult at times bc I had to keep the program very tightly controlled. Like an unofficial SAP. Management knew but it was just me at DIA and 100% $$$ went to BAASS. Folks in my office didn't know about AAWSAP. I heard two military officers

8 JL: talking about Skinwalker but had no idea, 25 feet away, I was running Skinwalker Ranch interactions at that time. Noory mentions AATIP going on at same time. JL...Ummm, no. AATIP created for Reid letter to Lynn in an attempt to get SAP status. Lue, 2012 or so, used the name

8 JL: AATIP for his military-only focus. AAWSAP received $22 million. AATIP received ZERO. We looked @ military & civilian. His (AATIP) look just at military. We had contractor & subcontractor support & Lue had no contractor support. From 2008-2012, we (AAWSAP) were the only game

9 JL in town. Most dramatic thing was what he saw @ Skinwalker Ranch in 2007. Went to SWR manager's home. Talking casually. Notices 12 or more crosses on wall. Should I have come here? Bigelow & managers went into personal finance discussion. He felt awkward and went into a daze.

10 JL: And then the object appeared in kitchen, floating. It was quite distinct. He looked away & when he looked back, it was still there so he could look at it closely. Did it allow that? It maintained its position. Not blurry or a spec in his eye. 18 inches tall by 18 inches

11 JL: wide, floating in middle of kitchen. 1950s style in kitchen & distinct colors of tiles. It just appeared & it was very sharp. Mentions other descriptions (Mobius Strip) & doesn't seem happy with that. Says it was like a six-inch long piece of spaghetti, boil it & left it

12 JL: drop & start bunching up on itself. But at very end, that you're folding, allow it to drop downwards and stick out. That part was super clear. It was truncated, solid, light yellow & surrounded by a different shade of yellow cloud. I was looking and taking notes. I just

13 looked at my notes recently as a reminder. It looked like cover of Tubular Bells (Exorcist) cover of Mike Oldfield. The part that went into the cloud was fuzzy. Manager Jean Dietz said, before you showed up, a cross flew out of bathroom, horizontally, & landed on the washing

14 machine. Then we went to exactly where the object was. Not a complex story.

Knapp: JL only made one visit to the ranch to see if a study was justified. And has an experience, just for him. Saw it, went to DC, met with Reid and...AAWSAP baby!
(I added the baby. :-) )

15 Knapp: Sometimes ranch is being, sometimes it's nasty. Always different and plays mind games with investigators and follows people home. It seems like the demo was JUST for JL.

JL: I didn't walk away from the program. We tried to (unsuccessfully) transfer to another DoD

16 office. He won't say name but says it was a hardware office and his (DWO at DIA) was an intelligence office. He doesn't think it would've have been properly placed there. Then they went to DHS & worked with them for a year but they didn't accept the funding but were extremely

17 helpful in tying up some loose ends. Multiple times, still tried to find a home. A couple of months before he retired, in 2015-2016, they tried to restart the program. AAWSAP-like program. Q was: Did government have to do it all (No! - Joe) Has extremely successful experience

18 with MUFON, despite what you've heard. Maybe MUFON would be a good place to have it, going forward?

Knapp: I think Hynek would've been onboard w/this effort. Follow the evidence where it leads. AAWSAP did that. UFOs almost always had hitchhikers, or abductions, mutilations,

19 Knapp: and ghosts and psychics. A very expansive and energetic and visionary-type program. Thinks Hynek would have been right there. Will only be sold on Amazon.

JL: The phenomena in AAWSAP didn't impact me as in: OMG what is going on? I was comfortable from beginning. Maybe

20 that's why I didn't have experiences like others, When I'm ranch, I have a very calm feeling. Even when I see it in pics. 4 whatever reason. Wasn't disturbed by anything. Just wanted it documented. Thinks book is a quasi-textbook. He mentions a reviewer but doesn't give name.

21 JL: I believe this is Kit Green. He said, "Read the book." he really meant READ IT. He also said read between the lines. "I can say, this book has your answers. It's complete. Just read it."

2.5 years ago, Bigelow, Reid, George, me. What are we gonna do? JL: I want to write a

22 JL: book but will need help. 100+ documents delivered to DIA & BAASS has an entire room of the analysts raw data. Pics, recordings. I would like it put into the national archives. Close program bothered him bc magazines/newspaper articles write saying things like, "We

23 JL: "vetted this with so and so." HOW? It was a closed program and they didn't know any of the details but were taking to media? AAWSAP was a complete success from DIA's point of view.

(Had a laptop mishap, plus my hands are slow. I'm behind big time.)

24 JL went to sleep.

Knapp: Folks @ Pentagon who were opposed. Senior people thought it (Skinwalker) was demonic & folks and investigated it was bringing evil into the world. Once folks found out about it in DoD, Pentagon folks freak out. Collins Elite-type folks who made

25 GK: policy decisions based on their beliefs. Others felt it would get out & be on front page of NYT (even if some of it was wrong) and it did. DOPSR took 14 month.

Kelleher: DoD made them take out specific references to various offices & certain verbiage and active military

26 CK: They took out all names of active-duty folks so they all have pseudonyms. Lead investigator of Tic Tac (Axelrod?) is a pseudonym. Happy how they handled it it. Fair. DoD left all titles in the reports in Appendix. Expected it would be removed but it wasn't.

27 CK: I spent 250 days and nights on SWR. In addition to it being a paranormal Disneyland, there are also consistent sightings of metallic-looking objects. That goes back to the Shermans as owners. He personally saw one that came right over Skinwalker ridge. Came in low

28 CK: and fast. Looked like a jet fighter but it was 100% silent and excited a perfect hairpin turn over his head and came back from where it came on a northern trajectory over Skinwalker Ranch. Axelrod photographed one of them. Just like @BrandonFugal who said he saw one.

29 - 98% of time, SWR was a beautiful NE Utah property. But for the 2%, things got weird & atmosphere changed. Even dogs (biosensors) started acting strangely. And sensor equipment lose power and acted strangely. Knapp brings up the hitchhiker effect.

30 Big strong intel/military folks come onto property SWR & think they will be fine but they take things home that lasts for years.

CK: It seems very real bc so many documentations of it. Goes back 2 NIDS days. His family would report seeing dark shadows. All mild until AAWSAP

31 CK: started & the 5 military intel folks (some w/combat background) from East Coast went onto SWR & then al brought it back home not East Coast and their family started seeing it. Poltergeist activity, shadow people, colored orbs. 100% of the. military folks experienced it.

32 CK: Occasionally, it spread to neighbors who were completely unaware of what was happening in the original home. It was like it was spreading. Theory: It speeds like an infectious organism.

Knapp: I went to ranch 27-28 times, never seen anything.

33 GK: but I would bring rocks home from SWR and then my wife had it happen. Two blue orbs the first time, floating outside at night in courtyard. GK didn't see it. 2nd incident. Something came in bedroom and phsycialy laid on top of her. Similar thing happened to Mrs. Bigelow.

34 GK mentions JL read HFTS, went to ranch, had the experience, met with Reid and AAWSAP born. Didn't spent much $$$ on ranch (a living laboratory) but did experiments trying to interact/communicate with it. Had a big program in Unita basin, investigators went to other folks

35 GK who had experiences & that was a pretty big number of folks.

CK: Program (AAWSAP) was in full swing when it ended. In terms of conclusions, we have no firm conclusion regard what the origin of phenomena are. But pretty certain correlation between tranditional nuts & bolts

36 CK: or metallic UFOs and human effects including psychological & paranormal effects and they should to be studied together, in conjunction with each other. Reinforced by 75 years of studying UFOs.

GK: Is it still going on? Well, AATIP & Lue continued but now we have UAPTF

37 and progress with Congress. some people who were with AAWSAP went to AATIP and now with UAPTF and are lobbying for a new program. Only issue in DC that has bipartisan agreement.

Caller suggests a modern drone can mimic Tic Tac maneuvers.

38 CK: All 4 pilots in 2004 were very certain that Tic Tac was totally different than what they knew existed unclassified or classified.

GK: One of these days, AAWSAP Tic Tac docs will be made public & it will be clear this wasn't a drone. I think drone theory is preposterous.

39 GK: Best part of AAWSAP was looking at serious medical effects.

CK: Bottom line is the two physician scientists followed up some of the cases & they followed these patients after they interacted with UFOs for months and some cases years. They went thru some serious medical

40 GK: Keeping secret was tough but necessary. Certain folks at Pentagon (who helped kill it) wouldn't have been happy with it. Plus, professional debunkers on social media would have tried to rip book before it came out.

CK: Only half a dozen folks know of its existence.

41 CK: AAWSAP had multiple different programs running side by side, in terms of techniques. Spent time analyzing substances found at locations. Examined beads at an alleged crash site. All contracted chemical analysis. Multi-physics analysis of reports, including Tic Tac case.

42 CK: Used hematologist, biochemistry, genomics, MRI analysis as we followed cases over months & years. Techniques initiated like serial blood samples, serial MRIs, it now being followed through by Invisible College scientists. who are following some of these cases in long term.

43: GK: Folks are confused by AATIP/AAWSAP difference bc of articles in NYT and Politco. @LueElizondo had to dodge it so some interviews be, he said, it wasn't his (Lue's) program & he couldn't talk about it. I never thought I would see these changes.

44 GK: We don't have any answers but if AAWSAP would have continued, we may have gotten a little closer.

Caller: Have many have gone missing @ SWR?

CK: On SWR, we had a lot of disappearing animals but no cases of humans disappearing in ranch or vicinity. Had a plethora of dogs

45 : CK: go missing and never return. Cow go missing and mutilated. High number of cattle that were on the property and then weren't on the property.

GK: Some AAWSAP folks wondered if a connection to missing 911 (@canammissing) folks & SWR. Angry and defensive folks have worst

46 kind of experiences on the ranch.Sometimes indifferent. Can be mean. Messes with minds and seems to wanna scare them for some kind of effect. Dine terrible things to animals. Maybe get energy from that. Messes with them. Have been abductions in area and locals seen monsters

47 GK: area around ranch (Uninta basin) has stories going 200 years. Lots of investigations by AAWSAP of those folks in the area having those experiences.

Caller: Why that particular area near SWR?

CK: SWR is not a unique property. Entire basin has been subject to these

48 CK: going back decades and centuries. NIDS looked at some of the hotspots. AAWSAP WAS going to do that in 3rd year but it was shut down. Other hotspots were Crestone, CO, Dulce, NM, Yakima, WA. Many adjacent to Native American reservations. Couldn't nail down any significance

49 CK: to that or not. Even Norway (Hessdalen), there are multiple different events happening over decades & being studied by an international consortium. Perm (?) Russia has same kind of events. The hotspots don't have any rhyme or reason but all have metallic UFOs, in addition

50 CK: to a plethora of paranormal and other types of phenomena. Seem to collocate. AAWSAP message; We need to study all of the above instead of just sensor-only metallic objects bc then we might miss the most valuable data on human effects.

51 Knapp: We may get a permanent UFO office but my concern is they only study UFOs. Is it politically palpable 4 Congress 2 study related phenomena like mutilations, poltergeist & hitchhikers and other phenomena at Skinwalker? But permanent UFO study is step in right direction.

52 Wade thru my voluminous Twitter feed. If u feel my tweets, blog & YT are informative & u appreciate the time & effort & would like to help me keep doing this full time, 24/7! 👽👇🏼

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BTW, Knapp said "preposterous", not me. That's the word I use when someone says AAWSAP was a sweetheart deal for Bigelow.

Should have read, "Sometimes ranch is benign..."

53 TY to folks who used my link to buy the book! Usually, my Amazon link brings in a few dollars. "Skinwalkers" is @ $50.00 or so w/67 books bought! It's one of my fav books in a long time & an important guide going forward on how things can be studied.

amazon.com/gp/product/B09…