Thread by @kaundabhatta

An Extremely important thread. Few days ago, @Koenraad_Elst ji had claimed that the story of Shambuka was not in the Ramayana previously but later added by people of casteist mindset. This claim shall now be critically analysed.

Before I start, I would like to clarify in the beginning that social hierarchy is not the purpose of Varnashrama, that is secondary. Primary function is to perform the Vaidika Yajnas, hierarchy in social status is necessary for any Society to function. But such status is flexible

The Varna remains the same, but based on one's role in society the status may differ. The hereditary jobs can be changed in few cases, andeven though that happens it does not change your Varna but only the social status. Heirarchy is important. Every system has hierarchy. +

Show me a school, an office where you dont have top to bottom hierarchy, any system cannot function without hierarchy so is society. Moving on to Ramayana +

The claim is that Varna entered Rigveda after the 10th Mandala. But Vedas were not 'Casteist' according to Sir Elst. I will show how even the earliest Rigveda has the same Varna in Ramayana and in Puranas. All are in same consensus, which Sir Elst labels as 'Casteist'.

First lets examine Ramayana, if the UK is an interpolation, what about the Balakanda?......

I will return after a while and continue this thread, sorry for the wait.

पठन् द्विजो वागृषभत्वमीयात् ।
स्यात् क्षत्रियो भूमिपतित्वमीयात् ॥
वणिक् जनः पण्यफलत्वमीयात् ।
जनश्च शूद्रोऽपि महत्त्वमीयात् ॥१-१-१००॥

The heirarchy is mentioned in the first chapter itself.
What the 4 Varnas would attain, last line = even the shudra would attain greatness.

Shudra is the servile tribe as per Rigveda, which i will mention further but this servile tribe also attains greatness is the meaning.

The fundamental flaw in the argument is that Ramayana is already a later text according to indologists. By the era of Ramayana, which is +

the post-upanishadic era,n caste system and so called 'casteism' had become well-established in the subcontinent. There is no sense in such argument to call Shambuka vadha a later addition as the entire Ramayana is in the 'castiest' era. If Uttarakanda is interpolated, even the +

Balakanda would need to be interpolated. Here we have verses like "धिग्बलं क्षत्रियबलं ब्रह्मतेजो बलं बलम्" (curse to the potency called kshatra, brahmatejas is real power) and नाविद्वान् ब्राह्मणः कश्चित् (there was no brahmana who was unlearned) +

क्षत्रं ब्रह्ममुखं चासीद् वैश्याः क्षत्रम् अनुव्रताः । शूद्राः स्वधर्मनिरताः त्रीन् वर्णानुपचारिणः ।। (the kshatra was obedient to the possesers of brahma,vaishyas obeyed the kshatriyas, Shudras engaged in their duty where obedient to the prior three). Such hierarchy is evident +

across the Balakanda. The Entire Ramayana shall hence be labelled as a casteist book. Not only casteist also there are alot of statements of Smritis. I wont quote Rama quoting Manu, but kaushalya worshiping Vishnu, performing Agni ritual in stead of Dasharatha while his absence+

Maricha preaching Dharma to Rama "पञ्च पञ्चनखा भक्ष्याः" (the five five-nailed animals can be eaten by brahmanas and kshatriyas). Such is the evident society of Ramayana Era. Caste System was flourishing with all its vivid injunctions we find in Smritis. In such a case, +

Why only cut out 1 part of Ramayana as interpolated? Entire Ramayana is so problematic you see. With these rules of smritis, elaborate description of Yajnopavita, Vivaha etc Samskaras mentioned only in Smritis. The Ramayana Era was already casteist, no need to add +

Casteism later on. Not only the Ramayana, the principal Upanishads which seem to prior to Ramayana in dating,they vividly mention caste. The taittiriya aranyaka has prohibition of non-initiated in Yajnopavita shall not utter vedas. Shatapatha has mention of the age of brahmanss +

etc. In that case why is it so shocking that a Shudra shall not perform austere penance. This prohibition leads to people dying is also not very shocking. Ramayana mentions Shambuka performing extreme austere penance and also is for negative purposes hence it is Tamasa tapas. +

Krishna explains what dark penance is = the penace performed by foolish notions that include torturing the self or others, is called dark penance (तामस तप). Shambuka was clearly hanging upside down above a fire burning himself and torturing one's self. This is never encouraged. +

Lastly Shambuka incident isn't incorrect because Rama did not kill a Shudra. Rama killed a demon who was the cause of deaths of several children due to his dark penance. He was a demon reincarnate who wished to acquire the seat of Rudra. Such a man deserves death.

I have shown all proofs of "casteism" in entire Ramayana hence it proves there is similar kind of narrative throughout, the rules for Shudras not been allowed to penance is nothing new or surprising, hence there is no definite determiner of interpolation. This claim is baseless.

Further in a new thread i will prove casteism existed pripr to the 10th mandala of Rigveda also.

Link to Varna in Rigveda

Rigveda Varnashrama Nirupana

https://twitter.com/kaundabhatta/status/1465534571311599617?s=19