2/ Let's definitely grant for a moment that ApoB containing lipoproteins (which we'll call ApoB-Lp) are participants in the process of ASCVD.
Can we likewise consider there are disease states (whether genetic or acquired) that result in both changes in serum ApoB-Lp *and* ASCVD?
3/ Monogenetic FH is certainly one I'd Put on the table.
In particular, a likewise constituent participant in the process of ASCVD are macrophages. Macrophages are nucleated immune cells and can thus suffer the same dysfunctional lipid metabolism we see with hepatocytes of MoFH.
I promise you'll find it quite interesting in this very context.
5/ Naturally, this begs the very important question with regard to higher ApoB-Lp where *not* due to a dysfunction in lipid metabolism (obviously, this is why we're so interested in LMHRs).
But are there others who have increased ApoB/LDL without dysfunctional lipid metabolism?
6/ Actually, there are a at least a couple dozen. But one that has had some decent study in particular is Glycogen Storage Disease (GSD). And we're especially interested in this disease given it somewhat simulates both fasting and keto (which deplete hepatic glycogen stores)...
7/ I went down a rabbit hole on GSD1a for a long time given it would have been a great analog to look at in this context. Do they have higher atherosclerosis? As it turns out -- not really...
8/ This was another interesting one as well...
9/
10/ Anyway, I bring this up because I'm counting on you, @NutritionMadeS3 to remain curious about this. It's certainly possible the ApoB exposure (per lipid hypothesis) will simply be further confirmed through our research with LMHRs (and if so, we need to know soon!)...
11/ But if not -- if there's more to the story as we suspect, you're one of the people I'm counting on to be interested in following the data where it takes us. ;) #science
3/ @BrianNosek:
“The big challenge as we see it is that the values that we have for how we think science should operate are not aligned with the culture, the incentives, and the policy landscape for driving how science does operate.”
2/ All your interjections in the debate should come as no surprise to anyone -- especially the participants.
In other words, clearly define the rules in advance on what you'll be enforcing, and ideally, you should announce these to the audience at the beginning as well.
3/ Thus, if someone steps out of line for these agreed upon rules and you promptly enforce them, there should be no controversy as this was expected.
A "bad call" is always a problem in any sport, the losing side feels robbed, and even the winning side feels the victory tainted.
2/ For a relevant example-- this study makes direct comparisons on symptomatic ("chest pain") patients ultimately diagnosed AMI (acute myocardial infarction, aka heart attack) vs symptomatic yet diagnosed as not having had an AMI... journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.41…
3/ "There were significant decreases in TC, LDL and HDL levels in both STEMI and NSTEMI patients as compared to normal subjects; however, patients with chest pain did not show any significant change in these lipids."
2/ First, be sure to check out this short thread from the lead author, @MaBMortensen.
2 quick notes:
a) While there'll be lots of data appreciated by LDL skepticism, @MaBMortensen maintains LDL-C is still "an important causal RF"
b) Usual epi caveats, etc
3/ Okay, so if you've followed me a while, you know just how incredibly thankful I am of studies that seek to avoid common risks of selection bias (Even if entirely unintended).
This study had the distinct advantage of categorically scooping its population directly...
1/ Reminder: I realize it’s the single hardest concept to get across, but for all these years I have and continue to suggest there’s a crucial case of lipoprotein profiles as often more a reflection of disease than the independent drivers of it. (ie — from 2018 re general👇)
2/ For example, I certainly know so much more on the workings of #LEM* than when I tweeted this from 2018, but does the foundation still hold up… do I think this is more relevant or less? Definitely more!
(*Obligatory mention of @nicknorwitz here and others re coming paper!)
3/ The bottom line is that while the independent causal role of lipoproteins (whether LDLp, sdLDL, oxLDL, glLDL, etc) are well worth examining. We should likewise investigate how *both* lipid profiles and CVD can be downstream of poor lipid metabolism.