Thread by @tribunaltweets

Good morning and welcome to Day 5 of #ForstaterTribunal, the case of Forstarter vs CGD.

I'm @wommando and we're expecting to start with Maya Forstater continuing to give her evidence. Catch up here:

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1501918…

Abbrevs used:

Maya Forstater (MF) & counsel Ben Cooper QC (BC), assisted by Anya Palmer (AP)

Respondents: CGD Europe (CGDE), (CGD), & Masood Ahmed (MA), President of CGD.

Counsel for respondents is Olivia Dobbie (OD)

EJ: Employment Judge
P: Panel member
C3: Complainant 3

Here is Maya Forstater's redacted witness statement:

drive.google.com/file/d/1w6lFqv…

#ForstaterTribunal

We begin.
The clerk goes over the ground rules which are connection issues, no eating or drinking, chatroom only used directed by judge and you must record the hearing in any way.
EJ reminds of the restricting reporting order and offence to publish 4 names and emails.

OD: yesterday we finished about the campaign leaflet you left in the London office. Id like to finish that. The last page of leaflet, 391.
MF finds it

OD: we see in the comments that says everything they need to know ow is in this place. The leaflet doesn't encourage wider reading
MF: it doesn't discourage them. It doesn't have notes
OD: no other links?
MF: no

OD: you left this in the office so anyone could read it. You were acting as a proxy for the campaign
MF: I brought it in as I'd been at the protest that morning
ID: sorry...yesterday we managed to get through 20 pages now where you're straying for answering the question

Mf: ask it again
ID: you were spreading the word in the London office
MF: no
BC: I don't think it's fair to say MF wasn't answering the question. She was interrupted as to why she brought it into the office
EJ: the questio is you brought it into the office, answer no which

EJ: Ito which the answer is no. Yes and no questions aren't helpful.
OD: but she went into a narrative and we've lost more time
EJ: I'm more interested in hearing what's being said, if yore moving on the answer was no and we need to know why is the answer no

EJ: why was it in the office?
MF: I'd picked it up that morning at the demonstration and talked about and they asked questions. They asked why it was important to me and I said I've got this leaflet if anyone wants to read it
EJ: thank you

OD: page 973, you are this was the image you posted on slack. Slack is an internal comms in the London office
MF: yes
OD: you say you posted on an informal forum and you holding a banner about self id and if anyone wanted a xonvo get in touch

OD: this is the discussion
MF: the initial msg was in group channel and this set of msgs were private direct msgs
OD: Arthur a research associate, a junior role yes
MF: yes

OD: Arthur gives us an insight...he says you say transwomen are men in heels and it crossed the line
MF: I don't say that in the office those are quotes from tweets

OD: Arthur's reply he doesn't try to convince against GC belief does he
MF: no
OD, we see him saying if you should talk about transwomen more respectfully and this is a distraction form the patriarchy
MF: yes he is commenting know my tone and I wasn't disrespectful

OD: page 79, you say I think there is a group of misogynists not natural allies to women, gamergate, porn advocates, then give an example of David Channellor. Who was convicted of raping a 10 year old. He's not trans is he
MF: he's a crossdresser
OD: that's not trans is it

OD: you give this paedophile the reason transwomen aren't recognised as women
MF: no that's not what I said...there are ppl using trans rights movement who want to silence peopletalking about safeguarding.

This happened in the green party who was an activist and agent for some aimee and actively had ppl renived from green party for stance on safeguarding and was on bail for this rape at the time...convicted given 22 years and GP hadn't been told or ignored.

MF cont This was an empty if undermining safe guarding by waving the trans rights flag.

OD: so you talk of this man and his DAUGHTER and you use this one bad apple as an example.

MF: I gave other examples...
EJ says don't need more details
ID: let's stick with David channellor

OD: you're saying you don't know his gender identity, are you saying you didn't bother to check as it's

(Missed)

OD: you understand this reads as moral panic
MF: I explained to Arthur it wasn't moral panic. Wasn't saying trans were a danger just everyone is not a natural ally

IF: You say here you would treat any transwomen with respect but I ahouldnt have to play along with delusions. Do you accept you infer people who don't share your belief is under a delusion
MF: I've made clear I use the word women to mean adult human female and not anything else

MF: it is impossible to be male and female or become female...wha5 is possible is to go under transition and I respect that but anyone who believes a male person is female who can get pregnant and give birth I would say is delusion

OD: you've said nothing about pregnant and birth you've just added that on..

MF: my belief is sex is real immutable and important and haven't stated a beleief about gender

OD: reads the Philip Bunce tweet about. You knew bunce described themselves as gender fluid. Do you accept cross dressing is an act of expression but gender identity is something internal isn't it
MF: I don't know

OD: you know some gender fluid dress in the way of their gender identity to describe a gender fluid and non- binary as a man in heels...(missed)
MF: I don't know what's going on in Philip bunces head

OD: you did know he describes himself as gender fluid, not dressing up for a stag do
MF: Cross dressing is listed under Stonewall
ID: take me to the bit where you described bunce as a man in heels
You also describe him as bringing his hobby to work and xould be seen to undermine

OD: his gender identity
MF: hobby is a neutral description of something you do in free time
OD: you think describing sikh man in a Turban is offensive
MF: no that's a religion

OD: you do say your tone could be moderated
EJ: are you saying the tone of this msg is respectful to trans people
MF: it was a private msg and adequately respectful

OD: moving on to your tweets, page 913. This tweet is about manels (reads tweet) you knew that the no manels pledge was what CGD had adopted.
Mf: wasn't clear at the meeting and my understanding was under discussion

OD: it was on the website but your attention hadn't been drawn to it
MF: yes didn't know that
OD: you chose thos example because you knew it was relevant
MF: yes pip bunce was in the news

OD: you had 2000 followers at this time and followed you for tax and sustainable development.
MF: yes
OD: you knew before you posted this that pip bunce was gender fluid
MF: yes I read the article and I did

OD: and if you'd read it they said the term transexual was old fashioned and didn't like it
MF: I didn't use the term

OD reads more tweets and responses
OD: You knew they described themselves as 50/50
MF: but not legally
OD: doesn't matter legally

OD: you still think it's acceptable to describe them as a part time cross dresser
MF: yes part time as in on some of the time

OD (reads out more tweets and refers to Josh Powell who responded and has 1500 followers..) then we go to 913, we can see Alice Evans engaging and reads. She's the one who came into facilitate the Equality talk you attended
MF: yes
OD: page 912 we gave Matt Collin joins thread

OD: (reads tweet) matt is at the world Bank and formally CGD and has 6000 followers. Page 920 we see Rachel meagre.....

(Missed)

OD: (reads tweets) you accept by using material reality it has an inference your reality is the only reality
MF: no its referring specifically to the reality of sex
OD: I appreciate you believe sex can't be changed, that's right?
MF: yes sex can't be changed.

Missed

MF: you accept some people do sex can be changed, saying there smo basis in material reality could be offensive to them
MF: is someone says a man can get pregnant I don't think it's offensive to say they can't and nobody complained about these tweets

OD: noone is asking about pregnancy
MF: yes but having a body that can do this
OD: wait a minute you didn't say this in your tweet. I'll ask you one more time do you see how what you said is offensive

MF: I think people can find anything offensive
OD: a transowoman did complain didn't she
MF: no I understand CQ is non binary and didn't complain

OD: Claire works in tax policy doesn't she?
MF: They

OD: page 9115, (reads out tweet of Philip bunce getting an award for women was just like giving award of colour to white people) you wrote you don't see the difference between Rachel Dolzel pretending to be black as a man saying he's a woman

OD: so what you were saying that there are gender inposters
MF: no I said (repeated)
OD laughs and says: well that's not what comes across here, you're saying people are posing or faking their gender
MF: the tweet doesn't say that
OD: it infers it
Mf: it doesn't

OD reads out more tweets
OD: now this thread was about manels
MF: it started the discussion off but the manels question was used to explore. It went some way from that
OD: you see there's a pattern you bring in the topic of women being assaulted and harrassed.. and risks.

OD: (missed) The next tweet is 948 this comment here (reads out) she is an affiliate of CGD
MF: yes
OD: she's prominent
MF: yes
OD: if we go to 949 to her other comment, I'll read your comment and then yours

OD reads long responses out (too fast)
OD: she's commenting on the way you're conveying it
MF: yes
OD: coming to the end of tweets, page 155 please, we have Igrid a development economist
MF: I don't know but yes

OD: ingrid says its better to prioritise gender diversity.. she says she wouldn't take such an approach
(Reads out another tweet by Maya)
OD: this is expressed in a way that is mocking towards ppl who don't share your belief
MF:its expressed in a light hearted way not disparaging

OD reads out tweet
OD: you think the language a feeling in their head infers some sort of mental illness
MF: no it just says its a mental state not a physical state
OD: do you not think it's a right to be addressed by their preferred pronouns

MF: no, where does it say that
OD: you get to describe how you get to be referred like Miss ms.
MF: yes

(Missed)
OD: can you see how what you've said here can be seen to mock transwomen and ppl who don't share your belief?
MF: there are transwomen who share my belief

MF: what I'm saying ppl are tying themselves in knots to avoid saying the truth

OD reads another tweet
OD: is it completely inappropriate someone proves their gender to take part in a panel

Mf: how do you know if you have a mixed panel if you can't ask them
MF: you would ask them how they identify
OD: what you say its about sex

OD: so do you think it acceptable dut to speak on a panel to prove their birth sex to prove you have a mixed panel
MF: I don't know

OD: we've gone through the disciplines and fields of the people who replied to you...and all of their followers would see your replies and then followers could click and see full thread.
MF: yes

OD: on your twitter handle you had CGD which linked to their twitter page and you twitter handle was on CGD website
MF: yes
OD: in two places. And your bio sees you a part of CGD to the outside world

(Missed)
MF: twitter accounts are personal
OD: we can see she writes personal blog and is on twitter and you wrote that
MF: yes
BC: can I just check the Bundle as different numbers
OD: that's concerning

They are discussing the discrepancies

OD: you accept you used that tweet about tax
MF: a lot of things
OD: that's what it says on your statement. Your cgd footer had your twitter handle on it didn't it
MF: yes

OD: anyone who received your email could see that
MF: that was my personal email
OD: you also used your twitter handle on articles you published, eg. The Guardian
MF: yes
OD: you posted on Facebook too and that had a link
MF: not sure

OD: and your blog had twitter handle
MF: yes
OD: so your handle was on all of these and that was to encourage to follow you
MF: yes for info also my phone number my Skype and Web address
OD: and anyone could click and see your tweets

OD: do people could follow then they see your tweets
MF: not replies
(Missed)
OD: noone dictated your content on blogs
MF: I'm sure we'll get to that

OD suggests a break, EJ says break at 11.20
(missed)
OD: now complainant 1 says you were transphobic and problematic for funders, and complainant 1 2 3 notice your twitter
MF: I see what you see

OD reads an email which says 3 individuals have come to him saying your tweets are transphobic but you can see he's not blindly accepting it or labelling you will that
MF: not at this point

OD: Amanda glassman agrees in this correspondence but doesn't say your transphobic or a bigot. We can see the focus is the issue distracts from your influence. Can you see that
MF: she says (read the response)

OD read more correspondence about social media policies and behaviour

OD: (reads out policy statement from Luke Easly) so from those internal emails between management, there's noone branding you for your belief
MF: not at this stage no
OD: and noone said there'd be an impact with CGD
MF: no

OD talks of Farrah who gave diversity training to CGD and Holly works there
MF: yes she is most senior
MF: and she's not judging your belief or describing you as a bigot
MF: no

We are now breaking for 10 minutes. See you shortly. #ForstaterTribunal

We are back. EJ gives the restricted reporting order again.

OD: we just left with the email of Holly said she would go to Farrah for a quick review and we get this quick review on same day

OD: and we see what was actually being discussed and says MF was okish (missed). Another email asking if the issue was MF viewpoints or done on twitter as CGD... there was a couple of things MF did, shaming, acting as a gatekeeper, CGD can comment on this

OD: nothing in this report says you are discriminatory or a bigot
MF: (is reading) no it suggests leadership felt unsafe

OD: it's just offering guidance as to how to manage your tweets
MF: its a review of my tweets
OD: its more than that it goes on to give recommendations
MF: its a review of my tweets and recommendations
OD: nothing indicates formal process against you

MF: if there been a formal process they'd have told me they were doing it
OD: after we see Luke easly suggest interim steps.. First is to say we will engage in a dialogue and reiterate these are not CGD policy and making staff uncomfortable

OD: Co times reading the email
MF: he doesn't say reality
OD: we see MA agree with the steps and a diversity training day....we can see from lukes perspective on the wording and tone you used
MF: that's what it says yes

OD: we don't have anyone else discriminating or judging your belief
MF: no
OD: page 1050 another email read out from CGD and say MF is being exclusionary. (Reads more and says she read til the end then ask questions)

OD: having received this you were aware
MF: yes
OD and some people would find them offensive and exclusionary
MF: yes

OD: you were asked to put a disclaimer in the tweet stream
MF: yes
MF: you did do that but didn't clarify that
OD: I couldn't go back into it without reignited them and with putting that in. If anyone asked me if it was a CGD position and I'd have said no

OD: so you didn't do that
MF: I couldn't figure a way to do that and I thought I responded to the request.
OD: pick up on two parts, by putting the disclaimer on profile not tweets they can't see your profile
MF: I couldn't put a disclaimer on every tweet

OD: you could ha e highlighted
MF: no that was the problem
OD: you could have sent a tweet about it
MF: I could have if I'd been asked but I was using 'i'

OD: you reply to luke and you do copy them all in
MF: yes and Owen
OD: and here you seek to argue that this is an issue that CGD should make space for
MF: which paragraph
OD points to
MF: I wouldn't call those arguments I was filling in facts

MF: if CGD does not wish to host the topic I'll look for somewhere else. I was filling them in
OD: you argue your belief
MF: I explained my belief
OD: you liken anorexic to trans people
MF: I'm emailing feelings about a person's body can still be serious

OD: here you are likening teans people to psychiatric I'll ess
MF: I'm likening gender dysphoria to a psychiatric Illness
OD: Gender dysphoria is not a psychiatric illness
MF: its treated by doctors
OD: it's used to assist them
MF: I'm not a psychiatrist

OD drawing differences between anorexia and gender dysphoria
MF: they're both things that affect people's health
OD reads another statement of maya saying she will continue to say this.

MF clarifies what she said.

OD: you go to say you're working on a blog post with Jonathan Gleney and you say you're happy to share it with anyone at cgd. You wanted them to post your blog post
MF: I raised it as an option but made it clear I wasn't fixed

OD: it was aim to use CGD profile to advance your arguments to give them legitimacy to the development audience
MF: no I was writing a blog post relevant to development and I thought if colleagues were interested CGD might consider but also might not

OD: on email sent to Kathleen stock referring to your blog post, so you were holding out hope CGD would publish it
MF: no I knew that
OD: if you published elsewhere you could still use CGD title
MF: yes

(There is a discrepancy in pages and they are sorting it)

OD: so this is you sending on your reply to the individuals and bringing th ediscussion to a wider audience, there were UK based
MF: yes I think I was forwarding it to them because I'd been involved in informal convos

OD: but you'd been informed colleagues were concerned and you didn't know which colleagues at this time
MF: I think just did know as I'd spoken to Owen who had spoke to luke.
OD: so you did know the 4 names
MF: no I had an indication it was ppl in DC

OD: for all you knew one of the complainants could be someone you forwarded this to
MF: it seemed unlikely
OD: but one was in the London office
OD: you knew you'd cause a stir sending this on
MF: no

OD: you knew your reply was going to cause a stir
MF: no. I meant I could see my tweets had caused concern in DC and it was my tweets caused concern not the reply

OD: so why would you need to what you said in the reply it doesn't correlate
MF: because the msg I'd received from luke my tweets caused concern in DC and that was an issue for london

OD: you set up another twitter account
MF: yes
OD: you could have said you would comply with CGD stance. You don't say you will abide by that
MF: the tweets weren't about work interactions

MF: I said inwould respect their self definition of their gender identity and had no desire to rude to people.
OD: you also have been told it's offensive to say transwomen are men

OD: and that a woman is an adult human female.
...
OD: you could have said you would keep that out of the workplace.

MF: I was giving my view on the UK debate...luke could have come back with other details
OD: we see Ellen mckenzie saying there may be backlash from staff. We see you are broadly supported.
MF: he also says we saw her being a senior fellow

OD: we see luke responds saying its not that MF said an unpopular stance but its that she stands by her rhetoric.

OD: noone is saying you can't remain as a visiting fellow or bigot
MF: Amanda says hard to see me as CGD figure
ID: they had reservations understandably

OD taking through correspondence about Philip bunce being 'part time crossdresser'.
MF: she's commenting on a transgender woman and we know that's not accurate
OD: it's used as an umbrella term
MF: but they aren't a woman and doesnt identify as one

OD: it's the specific language your using
MF: luke says I called a transwoman a part time cross dresser which isn't right

Missed
MF: were going round in circles here.. the
OD: the point remains the concern is the language used not your belief

MF: luke wrongly wrote me
OD: then you send the blog to owen
MF: yes
OD: this blog argues strongly against recognising trans women as women that's the tone
MF: it argues to have the debate
OD: to separate between trans women and women
MF: Between male and females

OD: and when you say male you mean transwoman
MF: it means anyone who is male
OD reads out parts of blog
OD: now this rather tends to suggest trans ppl would say they're a woman if they say so, as if there some other reason they would say their gender identity

OD: so you're saying it's not real and true for those people
MF: no I say what I say in the blog so it's based on self iD which is what someone say
OD: reads out about women being redefined. That's a mocking tone isn't it
MF: no
OD: on the name of inclusivity isn't mocking?
MF no

OD reads more of the blog about women losing their rights
OD: this is a theme..you regularly bring it back to an alarmist situation
MF: when you change a policy what are the impacts and if there is a policy that allows People identify as they want, what happens to vulnerable ppl

ID: are you saying a trans security guard or teacher are a risk and you can't trust them
MF: no if a woman says a man is in a woman's toilet because they can't trust that their own perception
OD: no you didn't say that you were specific

MF: in single sex spaces the norm is you challenge someone who is the right sex and due to voyeurism and so forth.. you can turn to staff and say there's a man in ladies showers

MF: looking at the paragraph noone can say in good faith that it looks like I'm saying that
OD: you are saying transwomen can be a danger
MF: I'm saying in a single sex space people should be able to trust its single sex

OD: the risk of sexual assault
MF: not only that. Dignity and privacy and not saying a male person who says their transgender is any more of a threat than a male

OD: you don't say that
MF: yes I do, it's here
OD: then you mention Karen White
MF: yes I'm talking about the risk and that did happen
OD: Owen suggests edits
MF: yes
OD: there were 6 I accepted but not this one

OD: you state that services for women should not be opened up to males.... (missed)
You say that adult males are males at birth (goes on, too fast about maya stating impacts on women and girls)
MF: I thought my language was clearer

OD: you forwarded that blog onto luke easly and you said you tried to write without offence but it's necessarily exclusionary because of the subject

OD reads out correspondence between senior CGD staff
OD: you were encouraging CGD to discuss your viewpoint
Mf: encouraging all viewpoints to be discussed

OD: you say to Ian Mitchell there should be a CGDE discussion.
MF: yes
OD: and here to mark plant you forward the blog post and say your open to how to open the discussion. your pushing the same point

MF: I'm putting forward ideas for discussion in the normal way. We had just done work for safeguarding so this isn't odd
OD: they're a financial think-tank not an equality think tank
(Missed)
OD: it was only relevant in peripheral ways

MF: that's a lot of CGDs work
OD: it's not CGD to draw that distinction
MF: that's what I was saying (missed)
OD: we can see Mark plant's response (mentions diffusing the situation) he emphasises it needs to be non confrontational or professional

MF: but I don't think it was
OD: I took you to all of the tweets which talk about your tone and language
MF: noone has said it was not professional
OD: they'd commented on the tone and problematic and offensive

MF: to say that transwomen are male is seen as offensive
OD: I'm not going to argue with you

OD reads more correspondence about the blog and the edits
OD: so again discussing your blog noone is calling you a bigot
MF: they're also not saying it's unprofessional or offensive

OD: we know Mark plant discussed with you (reads correspondence)
So again noone is sidelining you

OD: next the slides from the video you posted. We see page 1125. This is by the same pamphlet org Fair Play for women.
This is also part of their campaign against Self id
MF: yes

OD: we can see evn convicted rapists can get birth certificates if they say they're female
MF: yes
OD: it talks of all the places that allow TW to use facilities
MF: yes
OD: we can see the repeatedly drawn association if more people change gender there'll be more sexual assaults

MF: no its talking of the loss of female spaces which are there for women who have been sexually assaulted
OD: no commentary with this just music
MF: what it says is female people need female people spaces
OD: then it says more trans will be more sexual assualt

MF: no its saying spaces for women and girls are there to be male free and some are there directly for women experienced sexual assault. privacy dignity and safety.
BC interjects that MF hadn't finished

EJ confirms the confusion
MF: it states there are 510, 000 sexual assault and rape and 99% of sex offender are male (reads fully)
EJ: we can read what it says but OD is asking something different. What does it imply?
OD: you say privacy dignity and safety

OD: the suggestion is if more TW allowed to self ID there will be more rapes and sexual assault.
MF: if ppl are able to change the legal sex on their birth certificate including rapists, as no safeguarding the the implications would be that extremely difficult to protect female

MF: (cont) only spaces.
OD: 3 women a week murdered by partners that has no bearing on self id

Mf: it does for those married to male who self id and also domestic violent shelters, exhusbands can self identify
OD: you're giving an elaborate statement. (Missed)
MF: no its saying any man can get a certificate
OD: you were told there were complaints about this video

MF: (missed)... a video I had tweeted reminded people of the nation because of the colour scheme
OD: there were complaints
MF: I don't think there were complaints
OD: you then discussed with Amanda glassman, paragraph 157 of witness statement

OD reads correspondence about Amanda glassman who asked MF 'is this the Hill you want to die on'

OD: (missed) page 1208, this was an ad in the metro with the same org. And you tweeted 'choose reality'
MF: yes
OD: you accept by retweeting you're endoring
MF: yes

OD: this was a series of tweets you put out about comic relief. To celebrate women comic relief put up a TW. You rtd from Jean hatchet (reads tweet)
MF: yes as part of a thread that started and comic relief responded and I tweeting a long thread putting in context

OD: comic relief firmly believes people are who they say they are and .... you wrote (reads the tweet)
Can you see how it looks like you're mocking?
MF: I was commenting on

(My connection went)

OD:.... a 6 year old girl...that's a mocking tone
MF: that's their identity
OD: of the comic relief 240000 there could be potential funders
MF: there could be anyone. It's a serious thread it's not mocking
OD: we've covered Mark plant and gates grant but following we see emails

OD: at 1283, we see Mark encouraging Owen to get support for what I'll describe as his side of the camp. Then 1357, we see Ellen mckenzie to Amanda glassman about the visiting fellowship and its causing division

MF: yes my visiting fellowship was to be looked at because of my tweets

EJ suggests this is a good time to stop and we will reconvene at 2pm.

See you at 2pm
#ForstaterTribunal

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