Thread by @copscampaign

#SpyCopsInquiry restarts soon with more evidence from HN218, Barry Moss - one of the #spycops managers

Listen at

ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl…
We see a Circular sent by the SS to Chief Constables about 'subversive activities' in schools, asking them to share any information about this.

Was Moss aware of it?
No
By the time you were DCI of the SDS unit?
Maybe “but I wouldn't swear to it”.

The #spycops reported on what was going on inside schools.

There were some more questions about the procedures within the SDS.

Moss already described an “unfiltered approach to intelligence-gathering”

We see a 1980 report about an individual postal worker who's joined the Kilburn branch of the SWP:
ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl…
it details his address and bank account, and says he's an “avid reader of Gay News”.

In his witness statement, Moss refers to this kind of reporting as being relevant for 'vetting purposes' and is asked to explain.

He says there was the official Govt vetting system, aimed at preventing unsuitable people from having access to classified Govt information, and then the kind used for #blacklisting
- and these are two different things

He is now saying that this information was not relevant for vetting purposes
“I think it's just a question of identifying the person as, as much as possible”

Unable to justify this report, Moss falls back on a now familiar #spycops excuse: “It was a different time”

ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl…

We see another report about individual activist, this time a woman involved in the Revolutionary Communist Tendency.

It contains speculation about her personal life, her alleged desire to have a child, no longer using contraception, her dating preferences and more intimate details about her

Did you consider this kind of content to be necessary?

"Yes, I think it's relevant" he begins, to groans from the public gallery, going on to say that having another child might be a sign of her 'settling down” and becoming less politically active in 'ultra Left' groups

More #institutionalsexism

He revisits one phrase and admits it sounds a bit 'odd' nowadays: the reference to the ethnicity of her preferred partners.

“As I say it was a long time and a different time, sir”

He admits the tone would be unacceptable now, and sighs a lot when asked by the @ucpinquiry if the level of detail was unnecessary.

@ucpinquiry We hear about the Blair Peach campaign. Moss 'imagines' that the main interest in this group came from concerns about public order.

He is asked if the SDS received any requests for intelligence about this group.

@ucpinquiry We see some reports from June '79 & Feb '81 - it is clear that Special Branch wanted info about the people who made statements following Peach's killing, some of whom met in a pub once - Moss says the police might have been interested in case there was any 'collusion', but not SB

@ucpinquiry He claims he (personally) would have had no problem with people criticising the police but admits that the letter betrays a fairly defensive attitude on the part of the police corporately.

@ucpinquiry Asked more about the demo when Blair Peach was killed, Moss asks “when was that?”

Hearing it was in 1979 he responds: “That was before my time”

@ucpinquiry However Moss's statement includes references to the SWP 'piggybacking' off his death – instead of recognising that he was one of their own.

Were you aware that Peach was a member of the SWP?

@ucpinquiry He is asked if he now recognises the justice campaign as one which did ultimately secure some justice? Yes, he would.

Did he get any other requests for the SDS to obtain info about other justice campaigns? No

@ucpinquiry We've heard about the counter-demonstrations organised vs NF marches - with anti-fascist groups confronting fascists in the street.

In your view, was the trouble caused by one side or the other?

@ucpinquiry Yes. Moss is of the view that if the NF had been allowed to march, and not confronted by the Left, there would not have been any disorder.

@ucpinquiry Moss speaks of photos of NF marches in other places, showing “an absolute phalanx of police” and questions if that was a good use of police resources.

@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl…
This next report was about the Right To Work campaign and marches.
Moss admits that he had no idea how widely this march was.

@ucpinquiry Was it predictable that there would be trouble at the Conservative Party's conference?

Moss says that knowing about individuals and their 'proclivities' this could be assessed

@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl…

The RTW marchers were surprised by how much media attention their march received, and as a result the organisers are said to “instill rigid discipline in the marchers”.
They even expelled some rowdy elements.

@ucpinquiry It's reported that the mood changed when the march reached Southall.

This is blamed on the local SWP. 7 marchers were arrested “following a fracas”.

@ucpinquiry Asked why it was necessary to use the SDS to spy on the RTW campaign:

If you've got an organisation like the SDS why would you employ guesswork?

The Inquiry counsel suggests that maybe the SDS wasn't needed

Moss seems offended by this suggestion – the SDS already existed

@ucpinquiry One of the #spycops was on the march – was this necessary?
Moss suggests this may just have been to enhance this officer's cover.

@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl…

Moss is known to have blocked a man from joining the SDS as he was known to have had an affair with a (civilian) working in the SB office. He says this is because he felt his man could not be trusted not to have relationships while undercover.

@ucpinquiry Most of the #spycops were married, and Moss felt this helped lessen the risk of them having sexual relationships in their cover identity.

@ucpinquiry “I just thought that to do something like that would be so silly that they wouldn't contemplate doing it”

@ucpinquiry He agreed that going undercover was a stressful job.
One of the stresses would be the worry of blowing their cover.

Doesn't he see why some officers might have chosen to form a sexual relationship to enhance their cover?

@ucpinquiry No, he thinks such behaviour equated to more of a risk.
He admitted not giving much thought to these issues while he was head of the SDS.

He had admitted that he did not provide his officers with any guidance about this issue.

@ucpinquiry Moss met his UCOs several times a week, and says their welfare was v important to him.

@ucpinquiry We then heard about a string of SDS officers who are now known to have had sexual relationships while undercover

@ucpinquiry Did HN21 tell Moss that he'd had sex with a woman? Moss says HN21 didn't tell him about this. Looking back, does he think he could have warned this officer not to behave in this way? He says he's quite surprised.

@ucpinquiry Could proactive discussion about the risks and the wrongness maybe have reduced the chances of the officers behaving in this way?
“With hindsight, yes” admitted Moss.

@ucpinquiry HN106 had a girlfriend in the group he was infiltrating.

Moss says he had no inkling of this.

@ucpinquiry What about HN126?
Did you get any inkling about what he was up to?

“Not in his group, I mean his marriage was on the rocks, and...”

No inkling.

@ucpinquiry HN155 – how would you describe his character?

Larger than life, quite outgoing, “perhaps a bit more difficult to manage than some of the others”

@ucpinquiry Are you surprised to learn that he also confessed to sexual behaviour while undercover?

“Perhaps less so”.

@ucpinquiry HN297 – one of the reasons for his compromise was that he got involved with two women.
There is some evidence that this man told his colleagues (in 1976) about two women.
Moss denies hearing about this.

@ucpinquiry There is evidence that HN300 didn't just meet a woman, he married her...

This was “outside of my time”
I knew him from elsewhere in SB. I didn't know about the marriage but the relationship doesn't surprise me.

@ucpinquiry In your opinion, were any other officers at risk of this kind of misconduct?

They were all pretty steady and reliable” Moss says.

He says they weren't regarded as womanisers.

@ucpinquiry How would you have dealt with it?
A serious conversation.
This would have led to a reconsideration about their position – not a moral judgement because they were married, but because it was stupid behaviour. Moss thinks he would have referred it up to his bosses.

@ucpinquiry HN300 went so far as to admit he was falling in love with an activist, and was removed from the SDS.

Another officer thought he would have received 'words of guidance' if he'd admitted what he did.

@ucpinquiry What is Moss's reaction?
Removing him would have been inevitable.
Moss doesn't want to “speak bad of the dead” but says he wouldn't have had HN300 in his SDS – had he been selecting people at that time.

@ucpinquiry Moss confirms that this constituted serious misconduct.
It may not have led to a formal disciplinary board, but would definitely have led to a change of deployment and may have led to someone being removed from Special Branch – it might have affected their security clearance.

@ucpinquiry Did you consider the provision of 'cover girlfriends'?
Or advise other ways of dealing with this issue – eg creating a pretend girlfriend or being 'Mr Grumpy'?
No

@ucpinquiry Moss was asked about the safe houses, and the kind of sexual, sexist banter we heard about from other police witnesses.
Are you sure there wasn't any such banter?

@ucpinquiry On a totally different topic:

No prior permission was required before the #spycops took up positions of responsibility (treasurer, secretary etc) in the groups they were infiltrating.

@ucpinquiry Did Moss give them any guidance?
Informally yes, in the safe house – sounds like he was quite encouraging of them.

@ucpinquiry He says they sometimes had conversations – he used these to assess what the role was and if his officers were using the 'fine judgement' he said they needed to make these decisions for themselves.

@ucpinquiry HN155 was able to access a lot of data from his position in the SWP's headquarters.

Did you think this was a good thing?

Moss: “I'm sure the SS thought it was a good thing”

“I was quite happy for him to be performing that function”

@ucpinquiry He had inveigled his way into the building by way of deception, hadn't he?
Yes
And he was taking property from the building wasn't he?
He was taking confidential information, but Moss didn't have a problem with this – in his opinion data protection hadn't been invented then.

@ucpinquiry Mitting interjected to explain the Data Protection Act clearly was not in force then, and that this was a civil wrong rather than a crime.

“I accept that sir, but I didn't think about it” said Moss

@ucpinquiry We moved on to welfare, something high on Moss's agenda supposedly.

Moss made a visit to HN19's wife at the recruitment stage
What was the purpose of that?

@ucpinquiry He said it was a welfare visit – to ensure she was aware of what her husband was letting himself in for, how it might affect her, and kind of to check that she wouldn't have any 'moral problems' with her husband spying on innocent people.

@ucpinquiry He agreed that an SDS deployment asked a lot of the #spycops wives, “more than I realised at the time”, and that their marital status helped to 'anchor' them to the job.

@ucpinquiry During his time, there were Xmas parties involved, to which wives were invited. He claims 100% attendance in those two years.

The back-office staff also brought their wives along, as did he.

The DAC and his wife attended the 1981 event.

@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl…

This relates to HN126 – anonymous letter received by Sir David,head of the @metpolice at the time – thought to have been written by this undercover's wife – alleging that he was having an affair with a police colleague in police accommodation

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice What was the embarrassment referred to?
The existence of the SDS.

Why would that have been embarrassing?
The Home Office had told them that the SDS must be “top secret”.

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice “I can't say we were acting on the fringes of law, because there was no law governing what we were doing, this was a problem.

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice A bit strange that HN126 was protected following his extramarital affair
Moss actually visited the poor wife at home and seems to have intimidated her not to make a fuss, or tell anyone about the 'Hairies' – v different to Moss's attitude to that other guy we heard about earlier

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice He says HN126 was “doing a good job”, the marriage had “irretrievably broken down” and it was “all above board”.

He says he thinks there wasn't much risk of HN126 having any relationships undercover because he had a 'fresh' one going on with this colleague.

#institutionalsexism

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice In hindsight, could the SDS have done more to support officers' wives?

Yes. Not all of the wives were spoken to before deployment. Perhaps we should have had regular phone calls with them.

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice Talked about one wife having a 'serious domestic accident' – he says the police helped by rearranging her husband's duties so he could look after her.

“we might have sent her flowers or something like that”

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice David Hall had a 'light' management touch, they spoke daily, he was very interested and wanted to be kept informed.

Would he have known about salient events in the unit?

Yes, if Moss felt they were things he should know about.

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice He described Hall as 'gentlemanly' and says he was always interested in the #spycops welfare.

Ray Wilson was his boss to start with, and was different from Geoff Craft, who had more direct experience, and became his boss next.

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice The SDS office moved to Vincent Square as we see in the 1980 Annual Report
ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl…

This was a 15 min walk from Scotland Yard

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice There were advantages to this in terms of security, but it meant more effort was required to see the rest of Special Branch, and possibly less oversight.

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice Did the unit start to "drift away" and become more isolated from the rest of the Branch?

Moss refutes this suggestion - says another part of S squad was also based at Vincent Square so they were closer to them. You could see the New Scotland Yard building from their new place

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice Moss does not recall much feedback - complaints or 'plaudits' - for the SDS during his time running the unit.

They produced 5 reports/ week. He says it was a busy year for Special Branch as a whole and the SDS pulled its weight

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice how did his personal experience of undercover deployment help him with his role managing the unit? Moss thinks it meant that he understood what it was like for the undercovers, and gave him more empathy

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice He was promoted and then had to keep an eye on other parts of S Squad. There was a Papal visit that year, which Geoffrey Craft had to coordinate security for, so Moss was often alone in the office

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice The Brixton riots happened in 1981. What can Moss tell us about the aftermath, and the contribution made by the SDS? In his recollection, they looked at that, to see what the SDS might be able to contribute... maybe they looked at some photos to see if they could identify anyone

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice There was an officer deployed into
the SWP in SE London (HN356?), who was moved to Brixton when the SWP established a branch there - do you recall that?
No

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice On page 27 of the 1979 Annual Report there are some statistics about how many requests for info the unit processed:
ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl…

Moss recalls the vetting office as being "tiny" with just 2-3 staff. He assumes these Box 500 requests would have been basic searches

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice He's not entirely sure what those things are.
Assuming these are searches for Special Branch records, would some have come from SDS reports? Yes

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice Do you know if Mike Ferguson assumed a position of responsibility within the anti-apartheid while he was undercover?
No

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice Moss confirmed that when he left the unit in 1968, they were not using dead children's identities, but when he returned in 1980 "almost all my officers" were using this method

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice Next we looked at page 4 of ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl… - the training given to Special Branch officers/ Does Moss recall receiving any training from SS speakers while he was in the Branch?

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice He remembers that the @metpoliceuk Special Branch would run (two-week) courses in conjunction with the SS for SB officers from all over the country.

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice @metpoliceuk there was one more break, so the Inquiry can check if there are any more questions for this witness

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice @metpoliceuk You mentioned helping undercovers exercise a 'fine judgement' about whether or not to assume positions of responsibility – can you think of any times when you advised them not to take up such positions?

No, none

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice @metpoliceuk A7 was the community relations branch

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice @metpoliceuk If you had the S number could you tell which part of SB was involved?

There would have been an A, B or C sometimes.

Could you tell which had come from the SDS with that number?

If there was no S squad at that time, I'm now wondering if that would have signified an SDS number.

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice @metpoliceuk Was there any key kept to those filing codes?
No – it was pre-computerisation – there was a big book with numbers stamped down the side – you would take a batch of numbers and use them for your Squad...

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice @metpoliceuk ..This book was kept in the admin office – there may have been a pencilled annotation saying which Squad had taken which numbers but he's not completely sure.

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice @metpoliceuk HN155 – you visited his wife because there was a concern that he was not treating her well – did that involve domestic abuse?
It might have

Violence?
Not sure whether it went that far, I really can't remember, possibly

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice @metpoliceuk Did that give you any concerns about his suitability to be an SDS officer|?
Moss does not remember. He thinks Trevor Butler and he must have discussed it and presumably didn't take their concerns any further up the chain

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice @metpoliceuk Would it ring any bells if I said the HN155 issue was financial?

Moss noticed that this officer's evidence is incorrect – in that he did not visit him with Martin Gray – but maybe it was to do with divorce?

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice @metpoliceuk Mitting suggested this may have had something to do with maintenance payments.

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice @metpoliceuk He described 13 weeks of training when he joined the police force. He doesn't think there was any further formal training when he joined Special Branch, but he had a mentor, someone who is also giving evidence in this tranche.

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice @metpoliceuk When asked about the legality of attending meetings in people's homes you said there was no consideration – do you mean there was no separate legal analysis, or just that you didn't think about it?
Both

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice @metpoliceuk Was there a route available to you if you wanted legal advice about anything?
Yes, the Met has its own legal department – I could have consulted with them, and did so later on in my career.

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice @metpoliceuk Did you think that taking confidential information was against civil law?
“No, in truth I didn't give it a thought, because we were there to garner information.
So you thought it was lawful?

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice @metpoliceuk Could SB have obtained the same info from open sources or other covert methods?
Moss doubts it – he says other covert methods are actually “more cumbersome than many people understand”...

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice @metpoliceuk He went on to add that:
paid informants are hard to manage,
telephone interception is not “a magic way of getting information” and there ='s a physical limit to how many telephone lines you can eavesdrop on... #
and pesky legal constraints...

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice @metpoliceuk Anyway, that was it for today. Mitting is glad that the @ucpinquiry hasn't disrupted Barry Moss's holiday plans.

The next hearing is due to start at 10am on Monday morning.
#spcyopsinquiry
#spycops

@ucpinquiry @MetPolice @metpoliceuk @threadreaderapp unroll