Thread by @barandbench

Delhi High Court Women's Lawyers Forum to shortly begin their interactive session on "Women Laywers at Forefront: Defence and Prosecution".

Senior Advocates Rebecca John and Sonia Mathur to speak the event.

#DelhiHighCourt

The session will begin at 5 pm on Zoom.

Zoom ID: 848 1346 5824
Password: enlighten

It can also be watched live on the Facebook page of Bar & Bench.

Advocates Anu Narula and Warisha Farasat will be the moderators.

Zoom link:
us02web.zoom.us/j/84813465824?…

Facebook live link: Facebook.com/barandbench

Session begins.

#DelhiHighCourt

Adv Farasat welcomes the participants, informs about the scheme of the session.

Adv Farasat introduces Senior Adv Rebecca John.

You name it on thr criminal side, and she has either been on the prosecution side or defence side: Farasat

I want to start with one question. Why criminal law? : Farasat

I was by accident. I just happened to ve referred to a senior who did criminal law: Senior Adv Rebecca John begins.

We just kind of went along with whatever came: John

The event is live here: facebook.com/watch/?v=29085…

John shares her early experience in the profession.

I was fascinated by the language being used in the chamber. I was a bit shocked: John

My friend said all criminal lawyers talk like that. I was intimidated. I was just a little fly in the corner of the room: John

There were no women on the criminal side in the High Court : John

Those comments got out the rebellion in me: John

Mid level seniors hold your hand and guide you through. They were wonderfully generous. It just developed from there: John

Grounding was very sound. I watched my senior very very closely..it is the most magical training process: John

Sometimes to you get lonely because you are not doing anything.. but it never goes waste : John

Do you see any difference in the Bar today? : Farasat

So many women.. that's a great development: John

I see young women today.. wanting to go into area women didn't before. Rest is pretty much the same. Men are as loud as they were before. They still brag about as they used to. The acceptance of women in courts has increased: John

I'm not saying they were negative when I started..: John

Do you see a change in the judiciary? : Farasat

Work was much less when I started. We had two courts for criminal side.. there was a great interaction because there were fewer matters : John

That gave me the opportunity to address different courts : John on courts hearing regular matters when the case load was not much.

For trial courts, I believe that law is upheld by Subordinate judiciary. It is very keen to know the law .. they are very open to listening to you. That is where space is open for junior lawyers: John

Are there pressure (s) that are judges operate under : Farasat

Pressure is on both sides. You are dealing with matters of life and death: John

You are still a little nervous (before pronouncement of order). It is a high pressure space. There is no much media attention. : John

So much*

Should the Prosecutor be more than the mouth piece of the agency?: Farasat

It is not such an easy easy. It is not that easy when you shift to that side. Prosecutors don't have the support that defence has. They have to deal with poorly investigated cases: John

The job of a Prosecutor is very difficult. What is expect is fairness, honestly and concessions where do. And not go after people only because that's your brief: John

The onus of being fair is immense on a Prosecutor.. especially in the country where the process leading to court is not that fair and transparent: John

I look forward to such practices.. while it is adversarial, we don't have to be at each other's throats. I look forward to a quieter and saner space : John

You did the Nirbhaya case. You appeared for an accsued at a later stage. How does one look at such ethical dilemmas: Farasat

I appeared at post curative stage. That's the time a condemned prisoner needs robust representation: John

There was no ethical dilemmas. I rarely get confronted.. it's not that I'm a criminal. I'm a lawyer. There's pressure as it is. There's a constitution. If we insist on due process, we are only serving the Constitution: John

I'm a criminal lawyer. It's not my place to impose my moral values on anyone else. Have no business judging them : John

Criminal law has given me an understanding on human behaviour: John

One of the most difficult cases that you've done?: Farasat

Not difficult but challenging was #2G spectrum. Here was a case where you were exposed to a variety of different kinds of law: John

Things that ordinarily criminal lawyers don't deal with.. we've all got familiar now. It was the first big case that challenged me. There were juniors in offices you were critical.. we learnt a lot: John

It was a day to day trial. We had important people come in.. high profile govt Officers. It was very challenging. I think I came out a better lawyer: John

Farasat asks about the stringent bail conditions under various laws such as UAPA..

What was an exception was become a rule. It's something that courts will have to look at
..And the overuse of these laws. We've moved far beyond that stage.. we've imprisoned people for their thoughts and how they think: John

I'm worried that UAPA makes bail virtually impossible: John

We need to test them at the threshold of their constitutionality. It cannot be routinised as it has been You cannot through dissenters in jail because if these laws: John

Will women joining criminal practice clean the system?: Farasat

I've seen men also being very ethical. What women bring to the profession is .. a different perspective. They bring their your experience. Women who don't want nonsense. We see energy of different kinds. Can't say that all men are dishonest. : John

And why just women. People from other vulnerable communities.. Dalits should join the profession. We are still a privileged space. I would like to see a space for everyone : John

Adv Anu Narula introduces Senior Adv Sonia Mathur.

She's the Special Prosecutor in #2G spectrum.. at all levels: Narula

I want to congratulate the brains behind the event: Senior Adv Sonia Mathur begins.

I want to talk about what a Prosecutor is, irrespective of the gender : Mathur

A Prosecutor works independently of the agency. Sometimes we talk time to say that investigation is still ongoing. She should be able to assess the situation: Mathur

A court relies on the Prosecutor: Mathur

Mathur shares her experience as a Prosecutor.

It is very important to have a trust on teh defence as well : Mathur

The*

Ultimately the Prosecutor is the master of the ceremony.. what symphony has to be played: Mathur

Mathur quotes the Prosecutor in OJ Simpson case, Marcia Rachel Clark.

Stakes are higher in criminal cases. Any delay can have a very serious implication: Mathur

I'm not undermining any professional obligation. Wherever I had a clash between my CBI matter and income tax matter, I gave precedence to the former: Mathur

In criminal matters, you learn by your own experience and also the other side's. Financially, it (being a Prosecutor) may not be as rewarding : Mathur

As a Prosecutor, you can't take pride in winning cases. Although it is normal to feel happy, it is expected that you don't feed your ego : Mathur

There is a greater level of secrecy, client attorney communication: Mathur

I used to return the flagged files to the CBI Officer and asked him to bring it to court the next day: Mathur

Some constraint has to be exercised while interacting with media in high profile cases : Mathur

It's not just high profile cases that attract media. I was one appearing for a kabadi wala from West Bengal.. it was a pro bono matter. The then Attorney General appeared from the other side. It got a lot of media attention: Mathur

Now coming to being a Prosecutor and a woman. I've never faced any gender biased. I was the sole female Prosecutor in #2G: Mathur

You are able to understand the plight of a woman accused or victim. Even if the system does not expose you to gender bias, there are things that you can't escape: Mathur

Mathur shares her experience of being a Prosecutor in a case against an 80- year old woman.

No matter what your heart says, there are legal provisions: Mathur

Mathur says there was a case against an old man and his family sat in the court room and looked at her with folded hands.

There are some dilemmas that you may feel. If you are able to maintain the balance.. : Mathur

Dealing with investigating agencies may not be easy.. your male colleagues may go with the officers for a cup of tea.. : Mathur

Mathur shares another court room experience.

Coming to the challenges that women face.. clients are often biased to be want of lawyer who can aggressively lead : Mathur

Recognition is difficult for women criminal lawyers: Mathur

Once a lawyer said that female criminal lawyers are either not married or it doesn't last. I realised that there was a perception: Mathur

Mathur speaks about women prosecutors from across the world - Janet Reno, Fatou Bensouda, Louise Arbour and Marcus Clark.

Marcia Clark*

Justice Anjana Desai was a public prosecutor: Mathur

We cannot finish the discussion without talking about Justice Mukta Gupta, Judge, Delhi High Court.

She was a successful Prosecutor.. in very very prominent cases : Mathur

Now also, there are so many women prosecutors in High Court. I feel so proud. It's not a male dominated Prosecutor in that sense: Mathur

Mathur shares her experience of appearing in an anticipatory bail matter after she was designated a Senior.

Keeping someone outside was more satisfying than keeping someone inside : Mathur

Event moves to the question-answer round.

Participants requested to ask the questions themselves.

Please put your video on: Farasat

Sorry, I'm not in the position.. : Participant

Jasvina, a law student asks her question, asks John for her suggestions on joining criminal law.

Don't be so agitated that you don't have a background.. criminal law is not an easy space. I would suggest patience. Watch and grow. Don't fast forward the process : John.

Qn from Radhika Kolluru: I feel sometimes that as a State counsel, I'm glad that I'm a woman. I think people find it harder to influence me in an unethical manner.

You are right about that. But we can't generalize it but yes, there is a large number. Women are seen as more conscientious: Mathur

It is a benefit at the defence side too. I don't know if it's a gender things or our persona : John

Qn from Swati: Was representing Priya Ramani any different?

This is the answer I wanted to give a year later (most difficult case). Sometimes you get to do cases you really want to. Just once in a while.. It was a tough one. We will speak about it later. : John

Qn from Suneita Ojha : At trail court level, as a Complainant, there is a lack of trust with prosecution.

We are just brought up in an adversarial system. Prosecution doesn't have that level of resources. It is very unfortunate if that's the situation : Mathur

Qn from Shahrukh : Is political crime a category?

Some years ago I would have said there are civil and criminal trials. Many case are now overtly political. It may be recognised statutorily but we must be aware of it: John

So far as media is concerned, media adds to political trials : Mathur

Qn from Riddhi Malik who is a first generation lawyer: My family thinks it's risky and not good for family. How to go solo, how do I start?

Both the speakers today are first generation lawyers.. it's like any other profession. Everything (going solo) has to be done at an appropriate time: Mathur

Qn from Anirban Bhattacharya: Do you pin your hopes on young Bar?

John: Yes, why not. I have met most fascinating young lawyers, men and women.. Younger Bar needs to protect the Constitution of India. Younger Bar is what I root for.

A large number of young and mid level lawyers are doing a wonderful job: John

I absolutely agree : Mathur

Qn Neha Somani: How do you deal with clients whose stories you beleive in but there are no legal provisions in favour.

As a lawyer, you have to maintain a distance with your clients. It not our case. It is someone else's case. We try and tell a story: John

My only suggestion..while it is important to be committed but it is also important to be sane and be able to enjoy as it is without obsessing about the end result : John

Wasn't it difficult for you in your initial days: Somani

I get emotional even now. I'm asking you to not get swayed. Don't make the mistakes that I made : John

Qn Kosturi Ghosh on low conviction rate in sec 489A IPC.

Let's not take the burden on ourselves that women file false cases. Most cases are settled and compromised. It's very personal. Very few cases end before the trial. There is a tendency to pretend that all these cases are false: John

A large number of category of cases are false. Why burden women with it : John

A large majority of women do not access this law. Our country is not just the metros. There is a tendency to say that women lie and file false cases: John

It is not completely incorrect to say that there are no false cases under 498A. But yes, most 498A cases don't reach the end: Mathur

Mrinalini Sen thanks the speakers and participants.

Session comes to an end.

It may not be*