😷DAY 3: FLORIDA MASK TRIAL😷
The final day of the trial begins in a few moments.
Several Florida families are suing @GovRonDeSantis and the Dept. of Education over the ban on school mask mandates.
Defense will begin this morning.
WATCH LIVE:
The final day of the trial begins in a few moments.
Several Florida families are suing @GovRonDeSantis and the Dept. of Education over the ban on school mask mandates.
Defense will begin this morning.
WATCH LIVE:
OK here we go.
Sheridan: before we begin -- objection. Defense plans to call what we refer to as "parent witnesses." Concerned parties, care about kids, but our position is they are neither fact witnesses nor experts.
So objection is relevance.
Sheridan: before we begin -- objection. Defense plans to call what we refer to as "parent witnesses." Concerned parties, care about kids, but our position is they are neither fact witnesses nor experts.
So objection is relevance.
Judge Cooper: accelerated time schedule. Here's how I look at it. I'm being asked to weigh lots of important issues. It's reasonable for me to hear positions of people who aren't doctors, but are citizens with thoughts on this.
Whether they meet evidentiary standards, I think it's important to hear from all sides.
Overruled - Bean go ahead
Defense attorney Daniel Bean will question witness.
Her name is Jennifer Gillen of Lee County
Overruled - Bean go ahead
Defense attorney Daniel Bean will question witness.
Her name is Jennifer Gillen of Lee County
Mom of two boys, 5th grade and 3rd grade
Former science/biology teacher in Lee Co. Schools
Moved here from New Jersey in 2018, was biology teacher there in NJ public schools
Gillen: 5th grader has ADHD, last year we had option to e-learn, chose that
Former science/biology teacher in Lee Co. Schools
Moved here from New Jersey in 2018, was biology teacher there in NJ public schools
Gillen: 5th grader has ADHD, last year we had option to e-learn, chose that
Gillen: masks made it so he can't concentrate, so he focused on that. Kept him home for the year to homeschool.
Trying to teach child on computer turned into him sitting there for 5-6 hours a day, he hated it. Said "Mom, I wanna go back to school, but don't wanna wear a mask."
Trying to teach child on computer turned into him sitting there for 5-6 hours a day, he hated it. Said "Mom, I wanna go back to school, but don't wanna wear a mask."
Gillen: I have to refer to it as child abuse. We had to hold him back. He went in for testing 3 times. He was stressed, wanna go back so much but hate mask.
Human beings breathe through nose and mouth. To impede that oxygen makes zero sense.
Human beings breathe through nose and mouth. To impede that oxygen makes zero sense.
Oldest son?
He didn't know about trial. When I told him what I was doing, he was really upset. He was stressed there was a possibility we would go back to that. Kids communicate with gestures and facial movements. It upsets him. He's stressed out.
He didn't know about trial. When I told him what I was doing, he was really upset. He was stressed there was a possibility we would go back to that. Kids communicate with gestures and facial movements. It upsets him. He's stressed out.
You're a science teacher, is he safer with or without it?
Gillen: Much safer without it
Sheridan: objection
Judge: overruled, not a jury trial, I'll decide how much weight to put on this
Gillen: as a parent, when I'm told to do something, I don't just do it, I look at data.
Gillen: Much safer without it
Sheridan: objection
Judge: overruled, not a jury trial, I'll decide how much weight to put on this
Gillen: as a parent, when I'm told to do something, I don't just do it, I look at data.
Sheridan: Objection - invoke rule of sequestration, I see witness at bottom of screen
Bean: don't interrupt witness
Sheridan: I won't unless your witnesses join the call
Judge: I told witness you were nice, don't make me a liar
Bean: don't interrupt witness
Sheridan: I won't unless your witnesses join the call
Judge: I told witness you were nice, don't make me a liar
Judge: I'll decide what weight to give it
Some joking about being good people
Gillen: I look at holes in mask, virus goes right through because it's so small. My glasses fog up, there's gaps in sides and top when wearing mask.
Virus enters through eyes, nose, mouth
Some joking about being good people
Gillen: I look at holes in mask, virus goes right through because it's so small. My glasses fog up, there's gaps in sides and top when wearing mask.
Virus enters through eyes, nose, mouth
Gillen: Virus can go through mask, child touches mask then everything else, then their face, especially child. So inevitably they're safer NOT wearing mask than mask.
CDC said 330 kids died of COVID in last 18 months.
2018-2019 flu season 480 kids died of regular flu
CDC said 330 kids died of COVID in last 18 months.
2018-2019 flu season 480 kids died of regular flu
No one cared, no masks. We're supposed to go crazy, stop socialization, give them extra stress, make it hard to breathe, mess up my child's whole education because of numbers like that.
Judge: Bean you have to ask questions, can't have rolling narrative, taking broad input tho
Judge: Bean you have to ask questions, can't have rolling narrative, taking broad input tho
Bean: your right to make decisions?
Gillen: Of course it's my right. I stand for the flag. Because people died for our flag. Instead of fighting a foreign country, we're fighting our own people. I take my right and my freedom very seroiusly.
Gillen: Of course it's my right. I stand for the flag. Because people died for our flag. Instead of fighting a foreign country, we're fighting our own people. I take my right and my freedom very seroiusly.
Bean: you read Governor's Executive Order?
Gillen: Yes, I take my freedom seriously. You didn't ask about younger son, he has Down Syndrome, I have family in Arizona I can't visit because they will kick me off.
Judge: I want to make sure you know that there's a medical opt-out
Gillen: Yes, I take my freedom seriously. You didn't ask about younger son, he has Down Syndrome, I have family in Arizona I can't visit because they will kick me off.
Judge: I want to make sure you know that there's a medical opt-out
Judge: Sounds like your kids would qualify, did you know about that?
Gillen: I have a heart condition, I was gasping for air walking up stairs wearing mask. School district wouldn't honor it. So strict, not single child or adult in school was given opt-out
Gillen: I have a heart condition, I was gasping for air walking up stairs wearing mask. School district wouldn't honor it. So strict, not single child or adult in school was given opt-out
Gillen: I think parent has right to choose, every kid is different
Judge: Does parent have right to choose vaccinations?
Gillen: I know parents have right to opt-out for religious freedoms, not sure about every one. But in this situation, sometimes child may be suffering stress
Judge: Does parent have right to choose vaccinations?
Gillen: I know parents have right to opt-out for religious freedoms, not sure about every one. But in this situation, sometimes child may be suffering stress
Gillen: just mentally bothering them, they can't concentrate. A parent has to see that and make that decision. Goes back to our rights as Americans now being threatened by some of our own people. I'm actually scared. Scared for our country.
Judge: We're far afield from questions here
Bean: I was done, then you asked questions
Judge: ok I'm done
Sheridan: No cross-exam
Judge: I will take your concerns seriously and understand concern for your two children. Releases witness
Bean: I was done, then you asked questions
Judge: ok I'm done
Sheridan: No cross-exam
Judge: I will take your concerns seriously and understand concern for your two children. Releases witness
Discussion over Bean's alma mater @VanderbiltU
Judge calls it a fine school, some talk about being bad at football, Bean happy they're baseball champs
Shuffling around of witnesses.
Bean calls next witness Ashley Benton of Leon County, Florida (Tallahassee)
Judge calls it a fine school, some talk about being bad at football, Bean happy they're baseball champs
Shuffling around of witnesses.
Bean calls next witness Ashley Benton of Leon County, Florida (Tallahassee)
Benton: 4 kids in public school - 9th, 8th, 7th and 5th grade (whew!)
9th grader has ADHD, dyslexia and sensory processing disorder.
Bean: What's that?
SPD affects children differently. For him.....everything is more sensitive. Touching, tags on clothes, seam bothers him
9th grader has ADHD, dyslexia and sensory processing disorder.
Bean: What's that?
SPD affects children differently. For him.....everything is more sensitive. Touching, tags on clothes, seam bothers him
Benton: he focuses on that. Socks not on right makes him uncomfortable. He's learned more about how to adjust to it.
Bean: Mask?
Benton: extremely distracting to him, on his face, touching skin, rubbing, ADHD hard enough time trying to focus, very distracting and bothersome
Bean: Mask?
Benton: extremely distracting to him, on his face, touching skin, rubbing, ADHD hard enough time trying to focus, very distracting and bothersome
Benton: 7th grader also ADHD and dyslexia, ADHD pretty severe, distracted by everything, mask distracting for him trying to pay attention to teacher. Hard time focusing on teachers when wearing a mask. Distracts him but also distracts when teacher wearing one.
Benton: 5th grader has childhood apraxia and sensory processing disorder. Apraxia affects nerves of face and mouth, diagnosed at 3yo by speech pathologist, pediatrician didn't know what it was, no cure, intense speech and occupational therapy
Benton: painful for us to brush her hair, doesn't eat much food, so for her mask is extremely overwhelming, we tried to abide by them when there was mask mandates in Leon County, but I couldn't take her anywhere. They're overwhelmed and can't contain their emotions
Bean: Leon still makes masks optional in high school. why can't you get medical exemption for younger kids?
Benton: 2 days before school, masks were gonna be optional, then superintendent changed it to medical opt-out only. Fine, won't be problem. Called pediatrician
Benton: 2 days before school, masks were gonna be optional, then superintendent changed it to medical opt-out only. Fine, won't be problem. Called pediatrician
Benton: had same pediatrician since birth, will doc sign these based on medical records or do we need appointment?
Doc said idk, we just heard about this, call you back. Doc called back, said she was not going to sign any forms at all whatsoever. Pleaded with nurse
Doc said idk, we just heard about this, call you back. Doc called back, said she was not going to sign any forms at all whatsoever. Pleaded with nurse
Benton: I feel like my daughter has legit reason. Ended up in doctor with foot injury, doc then agreed she has an issue, allowed her to remove mask in her office bc she saw her in distress, but still refused to sign the medical exemption.
Bean: tried other docs?
Benton: not yet
Bean: tried other docs?
Benton: not yet
Benton: tried her specialist doctor, but <unavailable?>
If I can't get medical opt-out, I'll have to pull her out of school
Bean: you and husband own your own company?
Benton: yes
Bean: other moms?
Benton: none of them can get one either
Judge: that's hearsay
If I can't get medical opt-out, I'll have to pull her out of school
Bean: you and husband own your own company?
Benton: yes
Bean: other moms?
Benton: none of them can get one either
Judge: that's hearsay
Bean: proffer?
Back and forth with Sheridan
Judge: if y'all don't stop talking when I'm talking we'll take a break.
Bean: did masks protect you from COVID?
Benton: they did not, my entire family got COVID. My husband nearly died. Pretty intense. Thankfully kids were mild
Back and forth with Sheridan
Judge: if y'all don't stop talking when I'm talking we'll take a break.
Bean: did masks protect you from COVID?
Benton: they did not, my entire family got COVID. My husband nearly died. Pretty intense. Thankfully kids were mild
Benton: they got headache, low grade fever, tired. Husband got pneumonia, home oxygen, tried to keep him out of hospital, doing same protocols at home with a home doctor.
Judge: When did husband catch #COVID?
Benton: almost exactly a year ago. Sick from end-Aug to early Sept
Judge: When did husband catch #COVID?
Benton: almost exactly a year ago. Sick from end-Aug to early Sept
Bean: 8th grader?
Benton: he chooses to wear itat school. left that up to him, feels comfortable wearing it, makes other people comfortable. He's a pretty typical child. We're ok with him wearing it. Teach him to wash hands. We've had talks with him, but he thought it was easier
Benton: he chooses to wear itat school. left that up to him, feels comfortable wearing it, makes other people comfortable. He's a pretty typical child. We're ok with him wearing it. Teach him to wash hands. We've had talks with him, but he thought it was easier
Benton: i feel like we as parents know our kids better than anyone. I take them individually, physical, mental, emotional. 8th grader he had hard time being home last year. Hard emotionally for him to be away from friends.
Bean is done with exam
Sheridan: no cross-exam
Bean is done with exam
Sheridan: no cross-exam
Bean calls next witness, last parent
Sharyn Kerwin of Leon County
4 children
2 in public schools - 10th and 12th grades
Sharyn Kerwin of Leon County
4 children
2 in public schools - 10th and 12th grades
Kerwin: Senior she has rare autoimmune disease called juvenile dermatimyocitis [sp] she was diagnosed 8 years ago
Bean: can you spell condition?
Kerwin: Juvenile Dermatomyositis
Bean: can you spell condition?
Kerwin: Juvenile Dermatomyositis
Kerwin: was medicated for 7 years up to 2020, in hospital every month for treatment regularly
Bean: then it changed?
Kerwin: yes, after August 2020, she was finally able to be weaned off medicines
Bean: then it changed?
Kerwin: yes, after August 2020, she was finally able to be weaned off medicines
Kerwin: school started August 2020, in spring she noticed muscle weakness, 3 story school, having trouble getting up stairs, had to find out if disease has come back -- it has, she's back in daily/weekly medicine
Kerwin: disease attacks her muscle, leads to full-blown reoccurence.
Bean: side effects of disease?
Kerwin: severe muscle weakness. Ex: 8 years ago when first diagnosed, could barely situp at 9 years old, couldn't get out of bathtub.
Now she's back to muscle weakness
Bean: side effects of disease?
Kerwin: severe muscle weakness. Ex: 8 years ago when first diagnosed, could barely situp at 9 years old, couldn't get out of bathtub.
Now she's back to muscle weakness
Bean: oldest child went to school today, with mask?
Kerwin: no
Bean: what about your Sophomore?
Kerwin: yes, wore mask last year, healthy, last year for first time coming home often with headaches and not feeling good.
Bean: have headaches prior to masks?
Kerwin: no
Kerwin: no
Bean: what about your Sophomore?
Kerwin: yes, wore mask last year, healthy, last year for first time coming home often with headaches and not feeling good.
Bean: have headaches prior to masks?
Kerwin: no
Bean: what does gov EO mean to you?
Kerwin: our family is thankful, allows us to make choices best for them. We can choose for them to be mask-free this year because of that. No headaches from Sophomore, Senior has recurrence of disease but trying to get better
Kerwin: our family is thankful, allows us to make choices best for them. We can choose for them to be mask-free this year because of that. No headaches from Sophomore, Senior has recurrence of disease but trying to get better
Kerwin: we're thankful we now have right under Parents' Bill of Rights to make these decisions
Bean: any mental problems or change in demeanor?
Kerwin: they're teenage girls. Pretty solid, typical. But last year they started complaining. Sadder, disconnected. No interaction
Bean: any mental problems or change in demeanor?
Kerwin: they're teenage girls. Pretty solid, typical. But last year they started complaining. Sadder, disconnected. No interaction
Kerwin: Not as much conversations in classroom. Big challenge for them. Challenges they had mentally because of masks and people not connecting or talking.
Bean done with exam
Judge: this disease goes in and out of remission?
Kerwin: yes
Bean done with exam
Judge: this disease goes in and out of remission?
Kerwin: yes
Judge: Sometimes takes 2 years or so, but yours took longer?
Kerwin: yes
Sheridan: no cross exam
Judge: thank you for interest in case, and care for your daughter, wish you best
Kerwin: yes
Sheridan: no cross exam
Judge: thank you for interest in case, and care for your daughter, wish you best
Judge: next?
Bean: if plaintiffs want to continue to cross Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, that's fine, thanks to them for agreeing to take witnesses out of order
Judge: Ok check and see if he's up yet, still 7:30 in California
Break for 15 minutes (ish)
/fin for now
Bean: if plaintiffs want to continue to cross Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, that's fine, thanks to them for agreeing to take witnesses out of order
Judge: Ok check and see if he's up yet, still 7:30 in California
Break for 15 minutes (ish)
/fin for now
We haven't restarted in the trial yet, but everyone except Judge Cooper is back in so it shouldn't be long.
Plaintiffs' attorneys will continue their cross-examination of Dr. Jay Bhattacharya.
Yesterday, it got contentious. You can review that here:
Plaintiffs' attorneys will continue their cross-examination of Dr. Jay Bhattacharya.
Yesterday, it got contentious. You can review that here:
https://twitter.com/EvanDonovan/status/1430227078453080073?s=20
We're restarting.
Gallagher: was there an investigation at Stanford regarding your @gbdeclaration downplaying pandemic?
Bhattacharya: no
Gallagher: was there an investigation at Stanford regarding your @gbdeclaration downplaying pandemic?
Bhattacharya: no
Gallagher: Fauci said it's nonsense, criticism of that?
Bhattacharya: I had a reply to that if you want to hear it
Gallagher: no just wanted to know if you knew of it. You testified your primary metric of #COVID19 was new cases over certain time is what you relied upon
Bhattacharya: I had a reply to that if you want to hear it
Gallagher: no just wanted to know if you knew of it. You testified your primary metric of #COVID19 was new cases over certain time is what you relied upon
Bhattacharya: cases among vulnerable i'm interested in. I said there was about 100 cases per 100,000 in Florida
Gallagher: Exhibit 26, let's share screen
Bean: Objection - 26 hasn't been admitted, just sent 10 minutes ago
Gallagher: Sorry exhibit 25
Bean: no objection to 25
Gallagher: Exhibit 26, let's share screen
Bean: Objection - 26 hasn't been admitted, just sent 10 minutes ago
Gallagher: Sorry exhibit 25
Bean: no objection to 25
Gallagher: weekly Florida #COVID report from ending August 19, 2021
Bean: objection - standing objection to anything after July 30
Judge: overruled
Gallagher: what does this chart show?
Bhattacharya: 150,000 new cases that week
Bean: objection - standing objection to anything after July 30
Judge: overruled
Gallagher: what does this chart show?
Bhattacharya: 150,000 new cases that week
Gallagher: aside from lower count from 8/6 to 8/13, what's trajectory?
Bhattacharya: if you track models, it shows Florida has peaked and is on its way down
Gallagher: not my question
Bhattacharya: you've had massive wave, it's peaked and on its way down
Bhattacharya: if you track models, it shows Florida has peaked and is on its way down
Gallagher: not my question
Bhattacharya: you've had massive wave, it's peaked and on its way down
Gallagher: so rise over this time period
Bhattacharya: yes as i said, massive wave, looks like it peaked
Gallagher: for age breakouts, how many fatalities during this period (NB: basically this summer) for under 18?
Bhattacharya: I see 11 deaths under 16, can't tell for 16-18
Bhattacharya: yes as i said, massive wave, looks like it peaked
Gallagher: for age breakouts, how many fatalities during this period (NB: basically this summer) for under 18?
Bhattacharya: I see 11 deaths under 16, can't tell for 16-18
Gallagher: vax rate here says 66%, what does that tell us?
Bhattacharya: what's important is vax rate of vulnerable population, and I think for seniors it's much higher - I think 85%
Gallagher: that's not my question, again stop answering questions i'm not asking
Bhattacharya: what's important is vax rate of vulnerable population, and I think for seniors it's much higher - I think 85%
Gallagher: that's not my question, again stop answering questions i'm not asking
Judge: I think he answered, time for another
Gallagher: you said positivity rate isn't useful, right?
Bhattacharya: it has lots of problems, and is useless as a guide for policy
Gallagher: what about R-naught?
Bhattacharya: depends on how calculated, sequence of data, depends
Gallagher: you said positivity rate isn't useful, right?
Bhattacharya: it has lots of problems, and is useless as a guide for policy
Gallagher: what about R-naught?
Bhattacharya: depends on how calculated, sequence of data, depends
Gallagher: presuming R-naught is correct and based on current data, is it useful in calculating risk?
Bhattacharya: it tells you # of people in immune naive population that first infected person will infect. We're not in immune naive population in Florida
Bhattacharya: it tells you # of people in immune naive population that first infected person will infect. We're not in immune naive population in Florida
Bhattacharya: so it's not a sufficient statistic right now in Florida. it's one contributor to understand data
Gallagher: but #COVID R-naught for Wuhan strain and Alpha strain was higher?
Bhattacharya: yes more infectious, but not more deadly. controversy over #Delta R-naught
Gallagher: but #COVID R-naught for Wuhan strain and Alpha strain was higher?
Bhattacharya: yes more infectious, but not more deadly. controversy over #Delta R-naught
Gallagher: before #DeltaVariant were people getting breakthrough infections?
Bhattacharya: we were getting some before. Literature currently reading is about breakthrough infections and whether it has to do with declining antibodies among the vaccinated
Bhattacharya: we were getting some before. Literature currently reading is about breakthrough infections and whether it has to do with declining antibodies among the vaccinated
Bhattacharya: Wuhan strain and Alpha were before vaccination. Current debate is whether breakthrough infections among vaccinated is result of declining vaccine efficacy (and lower antibodies) or because of variant. Active scientific debate around that.
Gallagher: here is CDC 'what we know about Delta variant', says Delta is more contagious, agree?
Bhattacharya: Yes
Gallagher: says it might cause more severe illness in unvaccinated, agree?
Bhattacharya: no i see no data around that. Case fatality rate actually appears lower
Bhattacharya: Yes
Gallagher: says it might cause more severe illness in unvaccinated, agree?
Bhattacharya: no i see no data around that. Case fatality rate actually appears lower
Bhattacharya: But i didn't read this particular version of CDC report
Gallagher: did you read Canada and Scotland studies cited in that report?
Bhattacharya: would have to check notes. UK has best sequencing of delta, case fatality rate was lower in those data
Gallagher: did you read Canada and Scotland studies cited in that report?
Bhattacharya: would have to check notes. UK has best sequencing of delta, case fatality rate was lower in those data
Bhattacharya: have reviewed Canadian data on #Delta, haven't seen evidence that it's deadlier. Have not reviewed any Scottish data
Gallagher: reviewed Brown study?
Bhattacharya: have to look at notes
Gallagher going through different references in the CDC study
Gallagher: reviewed Brown study?
Bhattacharya: have to look at notes
Gallagher going through different references in the CDC study
Bhattacharya has not reviewed most of the ones Gallagher is going through in the CDC report reference list
Answering mostly no to whether he has read all these studies -- at least 6-8 now
Answering mostly no to whether he has read all these studies -- at least 6-8 now
Bhattacharya agrees with CDC that #Delta is more contagious, doesn't agree more deadly, doesn't agree that masking is necessary
Gallagher: negative outcomes for kids beyond dying?
Bhattacharya: yes
Gallagher: aware 3yo died in Leon Co. last week?
Bhattacharya: no
Gallagher: negative outcomes for kids beyond dying?
Bhattacharya: yes
Gallagher: aware 3yo died in Leon Co. last week?
Bhattacharya: no
Gallagher: you indicate relying on fatality indicator. What's your acceptable death rate for children?
Bhattacharya: i reject question, the question is what's the appropriate tradeoff
Gallagher: thta's not question i asked
Judge: go ahead and answer
Bhattacharya: i reject question, the question is what's the appropriate tradeoff
Gallagher: thta's not question i asked
Judge: go ahead and answer
Bhattacharya: right way to do policy is thinking about marginal harms vs. marginal benefits. So masking 5yo will have harms to children. Compare that to benefits, make decisions on that basis. Not right to say what's the acceptable number of deaths. Compared to what?
Bhattacharya: for instance kids missing school has long-term negative impacts
Gallagher: so what's UNacceptable death rate for children
Bhattacharya: again I reject premise
Gallagher: for someone who testifies often, you can't reject premise, either answer it or don't
Gallagher: so what's UNacceptable death rate for children
Bhattacharya: again I reject premise
Gallagher: for someone who testifies often, you can't reject premise, either answer it or don't
Bean: objection, argumentative
Judge: he's saying i don't accept premise that any death is not enough or too much. I'll weigh it.
Gallagher: you agree there is no circumstance you'd recommend masking children
Bhattacharya: false
Judge: he's saying i don't accept premise that any death is not enough or too much. I'll weigh it.
Gallagher: you agree there is no circumstance you'd recommend masking children
Bhattacharya: false
Bhattacharya: if there's evidence it will stop disease spread, evidence they can wear it all day long, and without harms to them, I'd recommend it
I've read many of citations before that CDC report, I'll look at the most latest one
I've read many of citations before that CDC report, I'll look at the most latest one
Bhattacharya: but given Public Health England study is in there, it's unlikely i'll change my mind
Gallagher: you're referring to mask as medical device
Bhattacharya: it is a medical device
Gallagher: did you wear mask during pandemic?
Bhattacharya: when required to
Gallagher: you're referring to mask as medical device
Bhattacharya: it is a medical device
Gallagher: did you wear mask during pandemic?
Bhattacharya: when required to
Bhattacharya: when mandatory, or settings where around vulnerable elderly people that weren't vaccinated
Gallagher: but you don't believe they're effective?
Bhattacharya: no highquality evidence suggesting it's helpful in stopping spread. wore it in large part for their comfort
Gallagher: but you don't believe they're effective?
Bhattacharya: no highquality evidence suggesting it's helpful in stopping spread. wore it in large part for their comfort
Gallagher: have you reviewed Combined Effects of Masking and Distance on Aerosol Exposure Potential from @MayoClinic?
Bhattacharya: don't think i've seen this paper
Gallagher: no knowledge of it saying results support principle of layered protection to mitigate spread of #COVID?
Bhattacharya: don't think i've seen this paper
Gallagher: no knowledge of it saying results support principle of layered protection to mitigate spread of #COVID?
Bhattacharya: I didn't look at this paper, but highest quality papers are randomized, doesn't look like this one is
Gallagher: What about this study <not sure which one>?
Bhattacharya: they weight differently than I do. Randomized data is better.
Gallagher: What about this study <not sure which one>?
Bhattacharya: they weight differently than I do. Randomized data is better.
Gallagher going through conclusions of this report (sorry he didnt say which one) and asking Bhattacharya about it.
Bhattacharya: yes i've read it. I don't agree with conclusion
Gallagher: what about Fishman study, Exhibit 19?
Bhattacharya: I've not seen it
Bhattacharya: yes i've read it. I don't agree with conclusion
Gallagher: what about Fishman study, Exhibit 19?
Bhattacharya: I've not seen it
Judge: it's the Canadian paper
Gallagher reviewing conclusions saying increases with #Delta resulted in more hospitalizations and death
Bhattacharya: I'll review it, but many of his Fishman's papers involve modeling. UK study is more helpful, they track #delta patients better
Gallagher reviewing conclusions saying increases with #Delta resulted in more hospitalizations and death
Bhattacharya: I'll review it, but many of his Fishman's papers involve modeling. UK study is more helpful, they track #delta patients better
Gallagher: UK data you cite in declaration is from 2020?
Bhattacharya: no it's from 2021. Look at footnote 52. CDC also cites same data, but I cite more recent one
Gallagher: but it doesn't use August data right?
Bhattacharya: yes it's real time, these are weekly data
Bhattacharya: no it's from 2021. Look at footnote 52. CDC also cites same data, but I cite more recent one
Gallagher: but it doesn't use August data right?
Bhattacharya: yes it's real time, these are weekly data
Gallagher: did you review Exhibit 22, the Scotland study?
Bhattacharya: No
Gallagher: conclusions show #delta results in more hospitalizations, risk particularly increased in people with 5 or more comorbidities.
Bhattacharya: No
Gallagher: conclusions show #delta results in more hospitalizations, risk particularly increased in people with 5 or more comorbidities.
Bhattacharya: not surprising that it's spreading among mostly unvaccinated people, can't attribute that to Delta vs. more young people beign unvaccinated
Gallagher: earlier expert said masking is child abuse, you agree?
Bhattacharya: maybe, depends on kid, parent would know
Gallagher: earlier expert said masking is child abuse, you agree?
Bhattacharya: maybe, depends on kid, parent would know
Bhattacharya: parent would have better way to decide than a government entity
Gallagher: you're a parent, do your kids wear masks?
Bhattacharya: when required, in schools sometimes
Gallagher: elsewhere?
Bhattacharya: church, when required.
Gallagher: you're a parent, do your kids wear masks?
Bhattacharya: when required, in schools sometimes
Gallagher: elsewhere?
Bhattacharya: church, when required.
Gallagher: anywhere else besides church or school?
Bhattacharya: not generally no
Gallagher: know of any child who has died or hospitalized from wearing mask?
Bhattacharya: no, but fact i don't know isn't relevant. Relevance is what does literature say about mask wearing
Bhattacharya: not generally no
Gallagher: know of any child who has died or hospitalized from wearing mask?
Bhattacharya: no, but fact i don't know isn't relevant. Relevance is what does literature say about mask wearing
Bhattacharya: it's very rare for child to get very sick if infected
Gallagher: then why are hospitals filling up around the state and country?
Objection, overruled
Bhattacharya: multifactorial. RIght now we're in midst of RSV wave. Of course #DeltaVariant spreading
Gallagher: then why are hospitals filling up around the state and country?
Objection, overruled
Bhattacharya: multifactorial. RIght now we're in midst of RSV wave. Of course #DeltaVariant spreading
Gallagher: can you explain what preprint is?
Bhattacharya: discussed it earlier. Draft paper, put out by scientist, to community, asking for comments/suggestions before submission to journal
So no peer review?
correct
Bhattacharya: discussed it earlier. Draft paper, put out by scientist, to community, asking for comments/suggestions before submission to journal
So no peer review?
correct
Gallagher: your @WSJ article was printed in April 2021, not peer reviewed, just opinion piece?
Bhattacharya: yes, but I reviewed evidence before writing
Gallagher: when was Orange County Register piece printed
Bhattacharya: maybe July? don't remember
Bhattacharya: yes, but I reviewed evidence before writing
Gallagher: when was Orange County Register piece printed
Bhattacharya: maybe July? don't remember
Gallagher: Your two seroprevalence studies were in 2020, correct?
Bhattacharya: one published in 2021 but used 2020 data
Gallagher goes through other pieces written by Bhattacharya that mostly are citing data from 2020
Bhattacharya is saying yes, mostly
Bhattacharya: one published in 2021 but used 2020 data
Gallagher goes through other pieces written by Bhattacharya that mostly are citing data from 2020
Bhattacharya is saying yes, mostly
This is still going on. Gallagher keeps referencing lots of writings Bhattacharya has done, most of which rely on 2020 data
Bhattacharya is agreeing mostly
(NB: Not sure why defense hasn't objected, seems like the point has made. Court reporter must be in the weeds!)
Bhattacharya is agreeing mostly
(NB: Not sure why defense hasn't objected, seems like the point has made. Court reporter must be in the weeds!)
Gallagher: Public Health UK is like CDC for England?
Bhattacharya: Yes
It relies on 2020 data though right?
Bhattacharya: yes but UK just announced schools for neither staff or students will have to wear masks
Gallagher: didn't ask that
Goes back to going through 2020 data
Bhattacharya: Yes
It relies on 2020 data though right?
Bhattacharya: yes but UK just announced schools for neither staff or students will have to wear masks
Gallagher: didn't ask that
Goes back to going through 2020 data
Judge interjects
Let's take lunch break, back at 12:48 - 12:50
/fin for now
Let's take lunch break, back at 12:48 - 12:50
/fin for now
Ok we're back, cross-examination of @DrJBhattacharya continues.
Gallagher: you've reviewed CDC recommendations for reopening schools, Exhibit 3 - do you agree with vaccinations, ventilations, distancing, filters as effective mitigation strategies?
Bhattacharya: yes
Gallagher: you've reviewed CDC recommendations for reopening schools, Exhibit 3 - do you agree with vaccinations, ventilations, distancing, filters as effective mitigation strategies?
Bhattacharya: yes
Gallagher: Handwashing?
Bhattacharya: yes
isolating/quarantining?
symptomatic, yes. evidence on isolating contacts who are asymptomatic is as good
contact tracing?
no
masking?
No
Bhattacharya: yes
isolating/quarantining?
symptomatic, yes. evidence on isolating contacts who are asymptomatic is as good
contact tracing?
no
masking?
No
Gallagher: knowledge of @AmerAcadPeds recommendations? vaccination, ventilation, filtration?
Bhattacharya: yes
Gallagher: Social distancing?
Bhattacharya: not good evidence on that
Bhattacharya: yes
Gallagher: Social distancing?
Bhattacharya: not good evidence on that
Gallagher: no pediatric or psychological training, right?
Bhattacharya: no, told you my training
Gallagher: but you still have opinion that it's harmful
Bhattacharya: yes
Gallagher finishes
Bhattacharya: no, told you my training
Gallagher: but you still have opinion that it's harmful
Bhattacharya: yes
Gallagher finishes
Cross-examination begins
Bean: Does your position give you more time to research, analyze, dig into #COVID19 than a pediatrician or doctor working in hospital?
Bhattacharya: yes, all i do is research
Bean: could they be biased by what they see everyday?
Bhattacharya: yes
Bean: Does your position give you more time to research, analyze, dig into #COVID19 than a pediatrician or doctor working in hospital?
Bhattacharya: yes, all i do is research
Bean: could they be biased by what they see everyday?
Bhattacharya: yes
Bhattacharya: it's called selection bias. I just do research all day. That's why it's important to look at data from around the world.
Bean: you didn't finish your answer about Fauci
Bhattacharya: he misrepresented in that interview what the @gbdeclaration said.
Bean: you didn't finish your answer about Fauci
Bhattacharya: he misrepresented in that interview what the @gbdeclaration said.
Bhattacharya: he made it sound like it was just let it rip strategy. In fact, protecting vulnerable was key to @gbdeclaration. He mischaracterized it and effectively waged a propoganda campaign by ignoring our recommendations on protecting the vulnerable
Bean: difference between abstracts, etc.
Bhattacharya: abstract is a summary, incl some methodology. Preprint is a study in draft form for review and feedback. Peer-reviewed is sent to other expert peers, editors ask authors to make changes after back and forth between reviewers
Bhattacharya: abstract is a summary, incl some methodology. Preprint is a study in draft form for review and feedback. Peer-reviewed is sent to other expert peers, editors ask authors to make changes after back and forth between reviewers
Bhattacharya: abstracts have much less detail if that's the only thing available - about methodology and findings. Less authority than pre-prints, they give u more detail about methods.
Bean: you said earlier UK has a CDC, what's it called?
Bhattacharya: Public Health England
Bean: you said earlier UK has a CDC, what's it called?
Bhattacharya: Public Health England
Bean: how often you check their data?
Bhattacharya: every week, most recent on Aug 20. It continues to find lower mortality for #DeltaVariant than other variants.
Bean: are other experts looking to UK?
Bhattacharya: very clear disagreement among health bodies
Bhattacharya: every week, most recent on Aug 20. It continues to find lower mortality for #DeltaVariant than other variants.
Bean: are other experts looking to UK?
Bhattacharya: very clear disagreement among health bodies
Bhattacharya: for example @WHO doesn't recommend masking 2-5, and very cautious about masking 6-11. So these bodies are all looking at the same data, and coming to different policy conclusions. Because they have different weights they place on for ex harms to kids from masking
Bhattacharya: #DeltaVariant first reports I heard were slightly before US in UK, but spread was pretty simultaneous.
Bean: is this basically your full-time job now?
Bhattacharya: has been over past year
Bean: is this basically your full-time job now?
Bhattacharya: has been over past year
Bean: announcement from UK today?
Bhattacharya: no masks for kids or staff in schools, reasoning was they want a normal experience for kids
Bhattacharya: no masks for kids or staff in schools, reasoning was they want a normal experience for kids
Judge releases Bhattacharya
Next witness: Chancellor of Public Schools at Florida Dept. of Education Jacob Oliva
Jared Burns will question
Next witness: Chancellor of Public Schools at Florida Dept. of Education Jacob Oliva
Jared Burns will question
Oliva: primary job is to implement Corcoran and Board's recommendations and policies. Also primary contact for school boards and state superintendents
Burns: how many districts?
Oliva: Local Education Agencies - there are 74 but 67 counties
Burns: how many districts?
Oliva: Local Education Agencies - there are 74 but 67 counties
Oliva: diff because some universities have schools that qualify
Burns: background?
Oliva: worked in public schools for decades, undergrad, masters, some doctoral work, specialization in special needs
Burns: background?
Oliva: worked in public schools for decades, undergrad, masters, some doctoral work, specialization in special needs
Oliva: parents have multiple pathways (for special needs education, I think) in our school districts, other states are jealous of us because we have those options
Oliva: we lead in virtual education, some students enroll their full-time, instruction goes K-12
Oliva: we lead in virtual education, some students enroll their full-time, instruction goes K-12
Oliva: There are some flex options for accelerated opportunities if district doesn't offer. Every kid can do Florida Virtual School. Some school districts have a contract with FVS where they run their own program. Classroom teachers sometimes do both. 8 charter schools offer too
Burns: Does Alachua, Hillsborough, Palm Beach have virtual school?
Oliva: yes
Burns: magnet schools?
Oliva: fulfills specific niche or area of interest, kids take specific programs, can be standalone or school within a school. Sets them up for postsecondary attainment
Oliva: yes
Burns: magnet schools?
Oliva: fulfills specific niche or area of interest, kids take specific programs, can be standalone or school within a school. Sets them up for postsecondary attainment
Oliva: can also revolve around arts, music, theater, can put super high-quality programs for parents and students with particular area of interest
Burns: allegations in this case that kids lose magnet seat if they don't go in person, who makes that choice?
Oliva: local district
Burns: allegations in this case that kids lose magnet seat if they don't go in person, who makes that choice?
Oliva: local district
Oliva: our hope is that schools are working with families on wait list, letting them stay if they're not comfortable coming back in person
Family Empowerment Scholarships - legislature just streamlined them from families. Hope is one of them, for kids bullied or harrassed
Family Empowerment Scholarships - legislature just streamlined them from families. Hope is one of them, for kids bullied or harrassed
Burns: Can we talk about special education requirements?
Oliva: federal laws outline some of this. Nothing in our plans throughout pandemic that lowers those expectations or support. When determining that plan, there's an IEP meeting involving all stakeholders
Oliva: federal laws outline some of this. Nothing in our plans throughout pandemic that lowers those expectations or support. When determining that plan, there's an IEP meeting involving all stakeholders
Oliva: something in that we refer to as 'least restrictive environment' so they can work towards a standard diploma
Not being able to read facial expressions is tough for many kids. Smile goes a long way.
Burns: were you involved in reopening schools last year?
Oliva: yes
Not being able to read facial expressions is tough for many kids. Smile goes a long way.
Burns: were you involved in reopening schools last year?
Oliva: yes
Burns: made sure kids had a place to go 5 days a week, get full level of instruction, plus virtual options, plus innovative learning space for synchronous and asynchronous learning
Trying to be as compassionate and lenient with flex opportunities, gotta stay engaged w students
Trying to be as compassionate and lenient with flex opportunities, gotta stay engaged w students
Burns: School districts report how many chose each learning option?
Oliva: yes, we call them surveys, takes a snapshot of the data. Survey 2 done in October, Survey 3 in February. We use that data on student learner profile to generate lots of reports throughout our agency
Oliva: yes, we call them surveys, takes a snapshot of the data. Survey 2 done in October, Survey 3 in February. We use that data on student learner profile to generate lots of reports throughout our agency
Burns: did they also report masking policies
Oliva: I don't think in formal surveys, but we did informal surveys, something more like through @SurveyMonkey
Oliva: I don't think in formal surveys, but we did informal surveys, something more like through @SurveyMonkey
Burns: how many had mask mandates?
Oliva: couple different layers - about 1/3 no policy, 1/3 formal policy adopted allowing optional choice, about 1/3 formal mask policy mandated
Burns: so roughly 40% of schools no mask mandates?
Oliva: roughly
Oliva: couple different layers - about 1/3 no policy, 1/3 formal policy adopted allowing optional choice, about 1/3 formal mask policy mandated
Burns: so roughly 40% of schools no mask mandates?
Oliva: roughly
Burns: did districts report #COVID cases?
Oliva: that was done through local dept of health
Burns: any info from state dept of ed on # of cases coming out of schools?
Oliva: some districts created dashboard, we also got data through FL Dept of Health
Oliva: that was done through local dept of health
Burns: any info from state dept of ed on # of cases coming out of schools?
Oliva: some districts created dashboard, we also got data through FL Dept of Health
Burns: use that for policy?
Oliva: yes, wanted to know what's working, what's not, etc.
Burns: difference of schools with mask mandates vs. without?
Oliva: we compared similarly sized districts with and without, nothing statistically significant
Oliva: yes, wanted to know what's working, what's not, etc.
Burns: difference of schools with mask mandates vs. without?
Oliva: we compared similarly sized districts with and without, nothing statistically significant
Burns: same as what school districts thought?
Oliva: yes, many were coming to similar conclusions
Burns: did you review Exhibit 45, memo from Corcoran to school districts?
Oliva: yes
Burns: 2nd paragraph says we provide families ability to make choices, priority fo ryou?
Yes
Oliva: yes, many were coming to similar conclusions
Burns: did you review Exhibit 45, memo from Corcoran to school districts?
Oliva: yes
Burns: 2nd paragraph says we provide families ability to make choices, priority fo ryou?
Yes
Oliva: they need a seat at the table on the path for their students, working with education experts, if you look at parallel trends, when we involve parents more in decision process, over last 20 years we've been leading the charge. Florida's graduation rate keeps going up
Oliva: achievement rates going up, graduation, it's because we give families more options
Burns: Corcoran letter says "make surgical, not sweeping" policies for kids and families. How do you do that?
Oliva: by providing families more options.
Burns: Corcoran letter says "make surgical, not sweeping" policies for kids and families. How do you do that?
Oliva: by providing families more options.
Oliva: Flatten the curve 2 weeks last year turned into much longer. When we looked at how to be more surgical, we wanted to give them choice. School workers still worked even when schools closed, bus drivers, meal workers, etc. We created options for families.
Oliva: we kept parents engaged when other states closed doors. We have large state, different all over.
Burns: Corcoran memo - example of 1-size fits all is mandatory masks. Does this speak to the lack of diff between masks & no mask counties?
Oliva: yes it's part of that
Burns: Corcoran memo - example of 1-size fits all is mandatory masks. Does this speak to the lack of diff between masks & no mask counties?
Oliva: yes it's part of that
Burns: Corcoran memo also states mandatory masks inhibit learning. how?
Oliva: like what we talked about earlier with special needs. Learning how to read, enunciate, masks inhibit learning. 400,000 kids in Florida have special needs. 250,000 kids are learning English as 2nd lang
Oliva: like what we talked about earlier with special needs. Learning how to read, enunciate, masks inhibit learning. 400,000 kids in Florida have special needs. 250,000 kids are learning English as 2nd lang
Oliva: putting teachers and students in fully masked environment harms that
Burns: how many students overall?
Oliva: about 2.9 million
Burns: how many students overall?
Oliva: about 2.9 million
Burns: has Dept of Ed continued to review data, even though Corcoran memo was released earlier this year?
Oliva: yes
Burns: pivoting to issues in this case, plaintiffs are suing over gov EO and Dept of Health rule
Oliva: yes
Burns: pivoting to issues in this case, plaintiffs are suing over gov EO and Dept of Health rule
Burns: did Dept. of Ed issue EO or Health rule or any rules in response to EO?
Oliva: it told us to work w Dept of Health. We took to our state board 2 different rules, 1 dealing with attendance with kids on stay at home directive or quarantine. The other around Hope scholarship
Oliva: it told us to work w Dept of Health. We took to our state board 2 different rules, 1 dealing with attendance with kids on stay at home directive or quarantine. The other around Hope scholarship
Oliva: allowed us to expand Hope beyond bullying
Burns: how?
Oliva: came up with definition for #COVID harassment. For any student feeling threatened, discriminated against, dehumanized, separated or isolated bc of #COVID19 challenges, family can attend private or diff school
Burns: how?
Oliva: came up with definition for #COVID harassment. For any student feeling threatened, discriminated against, dehumanized, separated or isolated bc of #COVID19 challenges, family can attend private or diff school
Burns: Does gov EO direct local school districts to do anything?
Oliva: to my knowledge no
Judge: Burns, pursuant to Chapter xxx I take judicial notice of 3 matters. Press release from State Board of Education relating to Broward and Alachua Counties...
Oliva: to my knowledge no
Judge: Burns, pursuant to Chapter xxx I take judicial notice of 3 matters. Press release from State Board of Education relating to Broward and Alachua Counties...
Judge: I'm sure Oliva is familiar with them, but just wanted you to know I was taking judicial notice of that, and the 2 rules from education
Let's take a break until 2:30 so you can review that
/fin for now
Let's take a break until 2:30 so you can review that
/fin for now
Since trial has referenced UK mask policy:
John Simpson of Public Health England said: "It's important to strike a balance between #COVID19 protection and student well-being" and "scientific studies show that transmission in schools remains low".
bbc.com/news/education…
John Simpson of Public Health England said: "It's important to strike a balance between #COVID19 protection and student well-being" and "scientific studies show that transmission in schools remains low".
bbc.com/news/education…
UK Dept. of Education in its May 17 guidance —
"Face coverings are not classified as PPE, which is used in a limited number of settings to protect wearers against hazards and risks, such as surgical masks or respirators used in medical and industrial settings."
"Face coverings are not classified as PPE, which is used in a limited number of settings to protect wearers against hazards and risks, such as surgical masks or respirators used in medical and industrial settings."
"Face coverings are instead largely intended to protect others, not the wearer, against the spread of infection because they cover the nose and mouth, which are the main sources of transmission of virus that causes #COVID19 infection."
gov.uk/government/pub…
gov.uk/government/pub…
UK guidance updated Aug 17:
"Face coverings are no longer advised for pupils, staff and visitors either in classrooms or in communal areas."
But there's a big caveat... (cont)
gov.uk/government/pub…
"Face coverings are no longer advised for pupils, staff and visitors either in classrooms or in communal areas."
But there's a big caveat... (cont)
gov.uk/government/pub…
"If you have a substantial increase in the # of positive cases in your school a director of public health might advise you that face coverings should temporarily be worn in communal areas or classrooms (by pupils staff and visitors, unless exempt)."
gov.uk/government/pub…
gov.uk/government/pub…
Here's a news story posted *today* on @BBCNews about UK's new mask policy —
"In areas where #COVID19 transmission is high, masks will be compulsory for secondary students and staff where social distancing isn't possible."
"In areas where #COVID19 transmission is high, masks will be compulsory for secondary students and staff where social distancing isn't possible."
Important note from that ^ video — primary (elementary) students in UK are still not required to wear masks, and appear to be unaffected by the policy change even in areas of high community spread.
OK we're back
Judge: defense have position on judicial notice of press release and its 2 attachments?
Burns: 2 objections, under standing and relevance
Also object because this circumstance exceeds what is allowed under the rule...and improper here
Judge: defense have position on judicial notice of press release and its 2 attachments?
Burns: 2 objections, under standing and relevance
Also object because this circumstance exceeds what is allowed under the rule...and improper here
Judge: I looked to see what most current press release was after your questioning of chancellor.
(NB: i'm not sure exactly what's happening here. Very legal issue here and I'm only a wannabe lawyer.)
(NB: i'm not sure exactly what's happening here. Very legal issue here and I'm only a wannabe lawyer.)
Plaintiffs, Whisenhunt: no objection here. Court can take judicial notice of facts relevant to proceedings.
Judge: let me say to defendants, if I do take judicial notice, I can give you extra time. I think it's appropriate to take statement from department on what policy is
Judge: let me say to defendants, if I do take judicial notice, I can give you extra time. I think it's appropriate to take statement from department on what policy is
Judge: does defense wish to take time to discuss these policies with witness?
Burns: well, are you taking judicial notice of these documents? That will inform how we proceed
Judge: don't know what plaintiffs are going to do, so it's my intent to take notice of these docs
Burns: well, are you taking judicial notice of these documents? That will inform how we proceed
Judge: don't know what plaintiffs are going to do, so it's my intent to take notice of these docs
Judge: they are Aug 20, 2021 press release from Dept of Education including links to two orders from State Board of Education (the letters to Broward and Alachua)
Judge: Burns do you need more time to consult w witness?
Burns: request leave to add more documents later
Judge: Burns do you need more time to consult w witness?
Burns: request leave to add more documents later
Judge: i'll allow you that, have allowed all so far
We start again with Chancellor Oliva, whom judge confirms is not with the Tampa cigar branch of the Oliva family
Burns: You familiar with press release judge mentioned, does it give counties chance to comply?
Oliva: Yes
We start again with Chancellor Oliva, whom judge confirms is not with the Tampa cigar branch of the Oliva family
Burns: You familiar with press release judge mentioned, does it give counties chance to comply?
Oliva: Yes
Oliva: we sent for reference, were told those 2 districts were violating law, they had until yesterday to respond, I understand they did respond, haven't reviewed the responses. From my POV, just want to make sure all districts are in compliance
Burns: you haven't reviewed them, but do you have knowledge if 2 counties are in compliance?
Oliva: haven't reviewed them and haven't debriefed with my team yet
Burns: do you seek to ensure districts comply with Parents Bill of Rights law?
Oliva: yes
Oliva: haven't reviewed them and haven't debriefed with my team yet
Burns: do you seek to ensure districts comply with Parents Bill of Rights law?
Oliva: yes
Burns: what #COVID mitigation measures are schools using to protect students?
Oliva: a number of them, we were able to supplement districts funding with 3 different federal packages, to get into these strategies it's important to know we received them from federal CARES dollars
Oliva: a number of them, we were able to supplement districts funding with 3 different federal packages, to get into these strategies it's important to know we received them from federal CARES dollars
Oliva: those came to us in 3 packages, referred to as ESSER funds, majority of dollars from 1st are allocated to entitlement fund, distribute through Request for Allocation RFA, those dollars started reopening schools beginning in summer
Oliva: went towards mitigating strategies like cleaning supplies, facility repairs thta reduce transmission, other activities to maintain continuity of services, plexiglass dividers, changing bell schedules to reduce kids in hall, more/different lunches, addl bus routes...
Oliva: after that ESSER1 package, then there's the 2nd package, and we're working on 3rd package that goes through 2024 year. So in total almost $11 billion to the state. Any improvements they need. Work with districts on anything within that scope
Burns: Other creative ideas?
Oliva: Some asking parents what they want to see to get to level of comfort, in some cases asking about masks, distance learning. Some limitation with access to devices or internet that these $$$ helped with.
Oliva: Some asking parents what they want to see to get to level of comfort, in some cases asking about masks, distance learning. Some limitation with access to devices or internet that these $$$ helped with.
Oliva: School districts in that community are able to respond based on needs in that community. Giving parents more choice.
Burns: for parents who think district policy creates threats or risks, what is your role?
Oliva: those are real. when i'm talking to families...
Burns: for parents who think district policy creates threats or risks, what is your role?
Oliva: those are real. when i'm talking to families...
Oliva: ...i always encourage meeting with principal to find out what they're doing. I have 2 kids. My son is severely asthmatic. Control what you can - you know how to wash hands, mask, social distance. I want you to control actions within yourself b/c we can't control others
Burns: based on your experience, do you think kids are safe in school?
Oliva: I think making sure we have safe, conducive learning environments is #1 priority and goal. That's why we're being heralded with such success, because safety is core value at heart of every decision
Oliva: I think making sure we have safe, conducive learning environments is #1 priority and goal. That's why we're being heralded with such success, because safety is core value at heart of every decision
Burns: describe system of care
Oliva: starts w adults caring about them. Not just rigorous learning in classrooms, but do kids have access to mental health, mentors, welcoming teachers and band directors and coaches. Basic needs be9ing met sets stage for learning environment
Oliva: starts w adults caring about them. Not just rigorous learning in classrooms, but do kids have access to mental health, mentors, welcoming teachers and band directors and coaches. Basic needs be9ing met sets stage for learning environment
Oliva: when i can look at a kid and smile to show them i care, that's part of our system of care, that gives them reassurances.
Examination done, cross-exam begins
Whisenhunt will question
Whisenhunt: you mention several times pride in accolades Florida has received
Examination done, cross-exam begins
Whisenhunt will question
Whisenhunt: you mention several times pride in accolades Florida has received
Whisenhunt: you aware of where Florida stands with regard to COVID?
Oliva: not read recent studies
Whisenhunt: if you learned we're leading or among leading states in new #COVID cases, would that concern you?
Oliva: we'd have discussions about it.
Oliva: not read recent studies
Whisenhunt: if you learned we're leading or among leading states in new #COVID cases, would that concern you?
Oliva: we'd have discussions about it.
Whisenhunt: have you?
Oliva: .....
Whisenhunt: but have you had conversations about the surge that's shutting down schools, etc.
Oliva: convos happening every day
Oliva: .....
Whisenhunt: but have you had conversations about the surge that's shutting down schools, etc.
Oliva: convos happening every day
Whis: so not aware we're among worst states?
Oliva: i have blinders for Florida, don't monitor other states
Whisenhunt: if true other states are having far fewer onsets of #COVID in other jurisdictions, is it possible other states are doing things you arent?
Oliva: i have blinders for Florida, don't monitor other states
Whisenhunt: if true other states are having far fewer onsets of #COVID in other jurisdictions, is it possible other states are doing things you arent?
Oliva: there's other factors happening in schools. We have diff sized schools and districts, how we navigate Florida isn't dependent on other states, I don't know how big their school districts are, etc.
Whisenhunt: so you're saying you put on blinders, not 👀 at other states?
Whisenhunt: so you're saying you put on blinders, not 👀 at other states?
Oliva: yes, since school started
Whis: not just academics, also student safety?
Oliva: umbrella of public safety or specifically #COVID?
Whis: larger - likelihood of school success is better when kids are safe
Oliva: yes
Whis: not just academics, also student safety?
Oliva: umbrella of public safety or specifically #COVID?
Whis: larger - likelihood of school success is better when kids are safe
Oliva: yes
Oliva: I rely on DOH to bring its expertise, so they should bring other states best practice here to tell me what they are
If you're asking about how we develop policies and practices for mitigating spread, I have great faith in our surgeon general
If you're asking about how we develop policies and practices for mitigating spread, I have great faith in our surgeon general
Whis: how do you know he's providing good guidance if you don't look at other states?
Oliva: because i look at state data saying they're succeeding
Whis: but what about students dying? We agree thta's not success?
Oliva: I'm not aware that's happened in schools?
Oliva: because i look at state data saying they're succeeding
Whis: but what about students dying? We agree thta's not success?
Oliva: I'm not aware that's happened in schools?
Oliva: I look at other states on education best practices, but if you're asking about developing protocols for mitigating spread, we take guidance from Dept of Health
Whis: One method we assess quality of Florida is national testing rates, fair?
yes
Aware of NEA?
yes
Whis: One method we assess quality of Florida is national testing rates, fair?
yes
Aware of NEA?
yes
Whisenhunt: you're aware of what they show, but we take them with a grain of salt?
Oliva: your words
Whis: do you agree?
Oliva: no, we do data-driven decisions, if there's something shown by data we may use it
Oliva: your words
Whis: do you agree?
Oliva: no, we do data-driven decisions, if there's something shown by data we may use it
Whis: if NEA ranked Florida 50 out of 50 states, that would be troubling?
Oliva: depends on context
Whis: in this instance, that's teacher pay. So context matters?
Oliva: sometimes yes, depends on what it is
Oliva: depends on context
Whis: in this instance, that's teacher pay. So context matters?
Oliva: sometimes yes, depends on what it is
Objection - question here?
Judge: narrow it down Whis
Whisenhunt: data can be skewed and abuse truthfully but still misinforming people, yes?
Oliva: I'm a practitioner, make data informed decisions, need context of what you're talking about
Judge: narrow it down Whis
Whisenhunt: data can be skewed and abuse truthfully but still misinforming people, yes?
Oliva: I'm a practitioner, make data informed decisions, need context of what you're talking about
Whis: are you aware people use data to be misleading?
Burns: Objection argumentative
Judge: sustained, can make this point in closing
Whis: I'll move on. How often do you make health care decisions on behalf of students?
Oliva: broad question, difficult to answer
Burns: Objection argumentative
Judge: sustained, can make this point in closing
Whis: I'll move on. How often do you make health care decisions on behalf of students?
Oliva: broad question, difficult to answer
Oliva: would need to know what you mean by health care decision
Whis: what's health care decision as you understand it?
Objection - asking for legal opinion
Judge: restate question
Whis: what's health care decision as you understand it?
Objection - asking for legal opinion
Judge: restate question
Whis: we talked about how PBOR gives parents right to make health care decisions
Objection - overruled, he can answer since he's involved in enforcing that law
Oliva: in school setting, if kid not feeling well, before we take immediate action we want to involve parents
Objection - overruled, he can answer since he's involved in enforcing that law
Oliva: in school setting, if kid not feeling well, before we take immediate action we want to involve parents
Whisenhunt: so in emergency?
Oliva: maybe yes
Whis: any time when kid fell or cut knee/elbow?
Oliva: yes, every day
Whis: important that kid with cut gets a band-aid, right?
Oliva: yes
Oliva: maybe yes
Whis: any time when kid fell or cut knee/elbow?
Oliva: yes, every day
Whis: important that kid with cut gets a band-aid, right?
Oliva: yes
Whis: and if it's bad bleeding, you'd want nurse to care for that, right? in loco parentis
Oliva: yes, school operators should act in best interest of children
Whis: do we require vaccines?
Oliva: ... (long winding answer) ... yes, but there's exemptions for those as well
Oliva: yes, school operators should act in best interest of children
Whis: do we require vaccines?
Oliva: ... (long winding answer) ... yes, but there's exemptions for those as well
Whis: measles vaccines are required right?
(discussion of difficulty hearing Whisenhunt, wifi appears to be dropping out)
Judge: some kind of feedback going on, it's not terrible but you're cutting in and out
(discussion of difficulty hearing Whisenhunt, wifi appears to be dropping out)
Judge: some kind of feedback going on, it's not terrible but you're cutting in and out
(Apologies now, I'm trying to put together evening news stories as I tweet)
Whisenhunt: you've developed a way for students w special needs to exceed
Oliva: yes through IEP
Whis: it's more challenging to do those plans virtually, right?
Oliva: can't say blanket, some might
Whisenhunt: you've developed a way for students w special needs to exceed
Oliva: yes through IEP
Whis: it's more challenging to do those plans virtually, right?
Oliva: can't say blanket, some might
Oliva: that's why it's an individual plan
Whis: But some would do worse virtually, right?
Oliva: yes
Whis: So i think we agree there are some virtual options, but they're not the right options for everyone?
Oliva: we have a continuum of services to meet every students needs
Whis: But some would do worse virtually, right?
Oliva: yes
Whis: So i think we agree there are some virtual options, but they're not the right options for everyone?
Oliva: we have a continuum of services to meet every students needs
Whisenhunt: so if immunocompromised student, but virtual not option, would you agree school needs to be safe and clean?
Oliva: that discussion happens in IEP meeting. Parents, and students old enough to advocate for themselves, all have input. Could get teaching in living room
Oliva: that discussion happens in IEP meeting. Parents, and students old enough to advocate for themselves, all have input. Could get teaching in living room
Whisenhunt: one reason gov pushed in person schools is inherent value in being in classroom, right?
Oliva: data show students in-person do better mostly, classroom experience is better for students
Whis: So 1-on-1 in living room would miss out on some points of learning?
Oliva: data show students in-person do better mostly, classroom experience is better for students
Whis: So 1-on-1 in living room would miss out on some points of learning?
Oliva: actually might argue flip side, 1-on-1 is better than 1-on-25.
Whis: so every case is different?
Oliva: yes, that's why it's Individual Education Plan for kids w special needs
Whis: what about kids who work fine in normal environment?
Whis: so every case is different?
Oliva: yes, that's why it's Individual Education Plan for kids w special needs
Whis: what about kids who work fine in normal environment?
Oliva: tough to define normal, but parent drives discussion, not one teacher knows my kids better than me
Whis: when pandemic began, fair to say you didn't think this would go long?
Oliva: yes, but stayed connected to our students, some schools were still providing services
Whis: when pandemic began, fair to say you didn't think this would go long?
Oliva: yes, but stayed connected to our students, some schools were still providing services
Whis: when schools closed in March 2020 at beginning of pandemic, with exception of a few students, parents weren't part of that decision, were they?
Oliva: that's correct
Oliva: that's correct
Whis: there was lots of concern back then about accomplishing social distancing in some school districts, right?
Oliva: yes, but our guidance is to work with Dept of Health, have school districts work with their local depts of health
Oliva: yes, but our guidance is to work with Dept of Health, have school districts work with their local depts of health
Whis: was last year the most challenging year you've been involved in?
Oliva: don't know if I can say that, lots of challenges always, going through hurricanes, school shootings, financial emergencies, always a pressing issue and challenge in education
Oliva: don't know if I can say that, lots of challenges always, going through hurricanes, school shootings, financial emergencies, always a pressing issue and challenge in education
Whisenhunt: #COVID numbers were down last year, often into low single-digits of positivity.
Oliva: I can't say, not an expert, but more parents every day became more comfortable with mitigating strategies and wanting to come back. DOH tracks that covid data
Oliva: I can't say, not an expert, but more parents every day became more comfortable with mitigating strategies and wanting to come back. DOH tracks that covid data
Whisenhunt: do you remember a push towards end of last school year about how Corcoran and Governor did not want to do masks this year?
Oliva: yes because parents were upset about sweeping decisions about masks, they felt like their child's learning was limited
Oliva: yes because parents were upset about sweeping decisions about masks, they felt like their child's learning was limited
Whisenhunt: enrollment for Florida Virtual school passed?
Oliva: I think yes for full time students, but flex has revolving dates throughout year.
Whis: those are separate from classroom option?
Oliva: some kids do both, do half on campus, or some combo
Oliva: I think yes for full time students, but flex has revolving dates throughout year.
Whis: those are separate from classroom option?
Oliva: some kids do both, do half on campus, or some combo
Whisenhunt: let me clarify, last year, students were "there" virtually in their normal class
Oliva: that's separate from Florida Virtual School. We heard overwhelmingly that option wasn't working. Districts, parents, no one liked it. Some shut it down by Winter break
Oliva: that's separate from Florida Virtual School. We heard overwhelmingly that option wasn't working. Districts, parents, no one liked it. Some shut it down by Winter break
Whisenhunt is done with cross
Burns on redirect: you were asked about reasoning behind ban on mask mandate, that's not a dept of ed rule, right?
Oliva: that's right
Burns: you were asked about Florida being diverse. School districts are too right? And schools?
Oliva: yes
Burns on redirect: you were asked about reasoning behind ban on mask mandate, that's not a dept of ed rule, right?
Oliva: that's right
Burns: you were asked about Florida being diverse. School districts are too right? And schools?
Oliva: yes
Oliva: that's why we say surgical decisions, not sweeping. Every child is different.
Burns: Schools allowed to put in clear plastic shields to mitigate spread of COVID?
Oliva: yes and many districts did do that. CARES federal dollars made a big difference to help them do that
Burns: Schools allowed to put in clear plastic shields to mitigate spread of COVID?
Oliva: yes and many districts did do that. CARES federal dollars made a big difference to help them do that
Burns: School districts free to implement social distancing?
Oliva: yes, and guidance said schools should encourage routine cleaning, handwashing, stay home from school, 4th component was masking but with parent opt-out
Oliva: yes, and guidance said schools should encourage routine cleaning, handwashing, stay home from school, 4th component was masking but with parent opt-out
Judge releases witness
Defense says no more witnesses
Plaintiffs have one rebuttal witness, Dr. Tony Kriseman
Judge: break until 4:15 - allow time to be finished by 5?
Plaintiffs: yes
Bean has another hearing in a different lawsuit in Duval County at 4:20.
Defense says no more witnesses
Plaintiffs have one rebuttal witness, Dr. Tony Kriseman
Judge: break until 4:15 - allow time to be finished by 5?
Plaintiffs: yes
Bean has another hearing in a different lawsuit in Duval County at 4:20.
Judge: this is Dannheim [sp] vs. Episcopal School?
Bean: yes
Judge: I'm not bound by 5pm deadline, we'll do Kriseman first then take a break
Bean: yes
Judge: I'm not bound by 5pm deadline, we'll do Kriseman first then take a break
Sheridan will question Dr. Tony Kriseman as a rebuttal witness
Sheridan: Dr. Kriseman, during testimony Dr. Bhattacharya repeatedly touted Randomized Controlled Testing to determine whether masks were effective
Is it ethical to do RCT of school-aged children in this pandemic?
Sheridan: Dr. Kriseman, during testimony Dr. Bhattacharya repeatedly touted Randomized Controlled Testing to determine whether masks were effective
Is it ethical to do RCT of school-aged children in this pandemic?
Dr. Kriseman: for a truly double-blind study, kids would know who has masks, and you'd have to put kids in dangerous environment where they could get COVID.
Sheridan: what is Chan [sp] study?
Kriseman: looks at whether masks are useful or not
Sheridan: submitted as exhibit
Sheridan: what is Chan [sp] study?
Kriseman: looks at whether masks are useful or not
Sheridan: submitted as exhibit
Judge: Admitted as Exhibit 27
Kriseman: divided into 3 key questions: can infected reduce risk of spreading to others by masks? yes
Can uninfected? maybe, center of the controversy, cited Hong Kong and saw benefit
Can widespread use control epidemic? yes it can
Kriseman: divided into 3 key questions: can infected reduce risk of spreading to others by masks? yes
Can uninfected? maybe, center of the controversy, cited Hong Kong and saw benefit
Can widespread use control epidemic? yes it can
Kriseman: back and forth with each side talking about face masks. Not sure anyone is gonna get it black and white, but this one is pretty close since it's unambiguous
Sheridan asks about another study focused on mask wearers
Sheridan asks about another study focused on mask wearers
Sheridan: aware of study regarding increased hemoglobin in mask wearers
Kriseman: i am, it was refuted by further study in Italy. This Danish study said their oxygen levels declined by wearing masks. Italy group studied kids as close as possible, through oximeter and CO2 levels
Kriseman: i am, it was refuted by further study in Italy. This Danish study said their oxygen levels declined by wearing masks. Italy group studied kids as close as possible, through oximeter and CO2 levels
Kriseman: it found oxygen didn't drop, and CO2 didn't go up, refuted Danish study that Bhattacharya mentioned
So Italians did RCT trial that Danish didn't do?
Kriseman: yes
Sheridan: impression of Brown Study @GovRonDeSantis relies on in Executive Order?
So Italians did RCT trial that Danish didn't do?
Kriseman: yes
Sheridan: impression of Brown Study @GovRonDeSantis relies on in Executive Order?
Kriseman: that study states quite clearly that this study shouldn't be used to say masks are not effective. Says that specifically.
Judge: on Brown study (by @ProfEmilyOster) where are you reading from?
Kriseman: last page, right above discussion.
Judge: on Brown study (by @ProfEmilyOster) where are you reading from?
Kriseman: last page, right above discussion.
Judge: says it doesn't take into account community spread, etc.
Kriseman: yes that's the one
Judge breaks for 15 minutes so Bean can attend other hearing
/fin for now
Kriseman: yes that's the one
Judge breaks for 15 minutes so Bean can attend other hearing
/fin for now
We're back
Plaintiffs' introduce a California study as Exhibit 26
Defense objects — reminds judge of standing objection to anything after July 30 (date of governor's EO)
Plaintiffs' introduce a California study as Exhibit 26
Defense objects — reminds judge of standing objection to anything after July 30 (date of governor's EO)
Sheridan: Dr. Kriseman, have you reviewed this California study Exhibit 26?
Kriseman: Yes. Interesting study, one of few looking at real-world because it's about #DeltaVariant.
Reads a portion about NPIs, non-pharmaceutical interventions (masks, etc.)
Kriseman: Yes. Interesting study, one of few looking at real-world because it's about #DeltaVariant.
Reads a portion about NPIs, non-pharmaceutical interventions (masks, etc.)
Kriseman: it's saying that it works, and that universal masking in areas where there was vaccine coverage of 70+ % also shows that universal masking was helpful regardless of vaccine coverage
Sheridan: Familiar with @gbdeclaration?
Kriseman: Bhattacharya and his colleagues. Focused on protection of most vulnerable, then letting people at "lower risk" to get infected. "Lower risk" depends on if it's your kid. Equally well-regarded colleagues of his did not agree.
Kriseman: Bhattacharya and his colleagues. Focused on protection of most vulnerable, then letting people at "lower risk" to get infected. "Lower risk" depends on if it's your kid. Equally well-regarded colleagues of his did not agree.
Also points a lot to Sweden, and some of their policies were reversed because spread was too quick.
Sheridan: selection bias, confirmation mask?
Kriseman: not a statistician
Sheridan: selection bias, confirmation mask?
Kriseman: not a statistician
Sheridan: thought experiment?
Kriseman: Bhattacharya said something about hospitals -- i can't let that stand. Our hospitals are bursting, nurses wanna quit, doctors overwhelmed.
Many things show masking is effective, we just don't have RCT to lay it in stone.
Kriseman: Bhattacharya said something about hospitals -- i can't let that stand. Our hospitals are bursting, nurses wanna quit, doctors overwhelmed.
Many things show masking is effective, we just don't have RCT to lay it in stone.
Kriseman: Bean asked me yesterday...if Child A wears mask, and Child B's grandmother doesn't get exposed.
If same A, wearing mask & asymptomatic, and Granny B,C,D don't get ill, is that enough for our society?
Or do we make all wear masks, and still only Granny B stays healthy
If same A, wearing mask & asymptomatic, and Granny B,C,D don't get ill, is that enough for our society?
Or do we make all wear masks, and still only Granny B stays healthy
That's what I meant by granny-to-mask ratio, it's a way of humanizing what we're talking about
Sheridan done, Bean on cross
Confirms with Kriseman about WHO not requiring masks for 2-5yo
Sheridan done, Bean on cross
Confirms with Kriseman about WHO not requiring masks for 2-5yo
Bean asking about one of the studies mentioned, and how it makes 3 assumptions about students and faculty wearing masks, effectively assigning a probability of mask effectiveness (15% for elementary kids, 25% for middle school, etc.)
Kriseman confirms it's a modeling study
Kriseman confirms it's a modeling study
Bean walks through limitations of other studies mentioned.
Kriseman mentions how 'assume' means something different in scientific setting vs. legal setting.
Judge releases witness
Kriseman mentions how 'assume' means something different in scientific setting vs. legal setting.
Judge releases witness
No more witnesses. Bean leaves.
Judge needs to hear closing arguments before ruling. Was hoping to get it done today. Then wants to review documents.
"That's gonna take me at least half a day."
Suggests closing arguments tomorrow AM, come back Friday for ruling.
Judge needs to hear closing arguments before ruling. Was hoping to get it done today. Then wants to review documents.
"That's gonna take me at least half a day."
Suggests closing arguments tomorrow AM, come back Friday for ruling.
Defense is fine with that. Plaintiffs as well.
Judge wants 30-60 mins max for closing so he can have rest of tomorrow.
Whisenhunt has deposition tomorrow morning at 9:30. Wants to delay start at 10-10:15.
Defense ok with that.
❗️TRIAL RESUMES FOR DAY 4 TOMORROW AT 10:15❗️
Judge wants 30-60 mins max for closing so he can have rest of tomorrow.
Whisenhunt has deposition tomorrow morning at 9:30. Wants to delay start at 10-10:15.
Defense ok with that.
❗️TRIAL RESUMES FOR DAY 4 TOMORROW AT 10:15❗️
Judge commends both sides for high level of professionalism. Witnesses were courteous. Says State Supreme Court should review this case for how to get it done quickly.
Judge won't start without Whisenhunt if his depo goes longer tomorrow.
Judge won't start without Whisenhunt if his depo goes longer tomorrow.
Abel asks if court will rule on Count 5 of their motion to dismiss before closing arguments (indispensable party - arguing plaintiffs didn't sue Dept. of Health and should have)
Judge says he'll likely wrap it into his final ruling.
Judge releases everyone
/fin for now
Judge says he'll likely wrap it into his final ruling.
Judge releases everyone
/fin for now
Some quick noteworthy moments from today's trial:
Dr. Jay Bhattacharya says Dr. Anthony Fauci waged a propaganda war against him and the Great Barrington Declaration
#floridamasktrial @DrJBhattacharya @gbdeclaration
Dr. Jay Bhattacharya says Dr. Anthony Fauci waged a propaganda war against him and the Great Barrington Declaration
#floridamasktrial @DrJBhattacharya @gbdeclaration
• • •
Missing some Tweet in this thread? You can try to
force a refresh
