Thread by @PWDAustralia

The final day of the first round of hearings has begun.

Watch along at: webstreaming.lawinorder.com.au/drc and follow along on Twitter.

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Over 135,000 students are identified as receiving reasonable adjustments in Queensland according to the survey quoted. Ms Eastman is asking about the percentage that attend state schools.

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The Chair seemed to be saying earlier that the statement said 100,000 in state schools and 35,000 in other schools (e.g. private schools), unclear what the issue is with those numbers.

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We're going through the percentages according to what kind of impairment the students have, now.

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https://twitter.com/bluntshovels/status/1192232807612866562

Ms Dunstone mentions that some students fall into multiple categories but they only pick one for the data. We heard a little about the issues that can cause from yesterday's witnesses.

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And the EAP data collection does not use the same categories as the NCCD data, so that seems like an additional burden on anyone trying to understand and deal with this information.

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"It's probably beyond the scope of this hearing" to talk about funding, says Ms Eastman, but then asks about why the two different models.

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Ms Dunstone seems to be saying that they didn't want to implement a lot of changes until they saw how the NDIS affected everything.

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The conversation is now moving on to the Deloitte Review again.

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The Deloitte report found a "continued disparity between policy and practice" across Australia.

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https://twitter.com/bluntshovels/status/1192236421798432774

Ms Eastman is asking Ms Dunstone how the key findings of the report shaped Queensland's subsequent actions.

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She also asks Ms Dunstone what she considers the key findings to be.

Ms Dunstone says "defining what we meant by inclusive education" was number one.

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Showing the Commission a two page document released at the same time as the Deloitte Report, summarising the Government's understanding of the key findings and the Government's commitments on that front.

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It's not a formal policy but it is "a document we hold ourselves accountable to."

What does that mean, asks Ms Eastman.

Dunstone: A commitment.

Eastman: Does that commitment have legal consequences?

Dunstone: No.

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That document is apparently publicly available on the QLD department of education website.

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Now talking about a formal policy called Advancing Partnership - possibly this? education.qld.gov.au/parents/commun…

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Was there consultation with parents and caregivers?

Ms Dunstone says she wasn't involved but she expects so.

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Eastman: Was there any training provided to schools with this document?

Dunstone: There would have been workshops run by regional leadership.

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Ms Eastman asks how the Department checks compliance with these policies or guidelines.

Ms Dunstone: A variety of ways.

She then moves on to how schools communicate with parents?

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Ah, so review teams talk to families about their experience, and that's one way they check compliance.

The rest of the "variety of ways" to check compliance hasn't been mentioned.

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https://twitter.com/bluntshovels/status/1192240550516146176

Ms Eastman asks about the lack of commitment to inclusive education in the overall school strategy, and Ms Dunstone says it's in the process of being rewritten.

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They're now discussing the actual #InclusiveEducation policy.

"The Department commits to continuing our journey towards" inclusion - Ms Eastman asks if that builds in some caveats.

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Ms Eastman is questioning some different wording between the inclusive education policy and the inclusive education statement. Ms Dunstone says it was just about trying to communicate clearly.

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There are a lot of different documents being referred to here.

This one is for staff workshops.

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Finally getting into something that references the #CRPD!

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Ms Eastman is asking about the meaning of the nine core principles in the policy that were adapted from the UN statement on inclusion.

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"How does this policy adequately address intersectionality?"

Ms Dunstone refers to the policy as an "organiser" and says they have many other policies on various axes of inclusion.

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Ms Eastman refers to the constellation of policies as confusing and time-consuming, asks if Ms Dunstone expects parents of children with #disability to read the policy + clearly understand what's happening with #InclusiveEducation

Ms Dunstone says no.

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The Chair is asking about the #CRPD principles being applied across many categories. Says that would be confusing to parents.

Ms Dunstone is talking about attempts to simplify the information on their website.

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He gives the example of "reasonable adjustment" being disability focused language but also used to apply to children who need adjustments for cultural reasons. That hasn't been addressed by Ms Dunstone.

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Ms Eastman asks the witness about the definition and scope of reasonable adjustments for students.

Dustone notes that the reasonable adjustments are the necessary adjustments a student may require in order to participate in the classroom.

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Dunstone mentions the active role individual students may have in implementing these reasonable adjustments.

Ms Eastman continues to question on the involvement of parents and carers in the process.

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Ms Dunstone mentions that not all adjustments made are documented.

Ms Eastman questions the impact this would have on surveying what adjustments work and which ones don't.

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The Chair questions Ms Dunstone about the allocation of funds to mainstream schools and special education schools.

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Eastman continues questioning on the process of reasonable adjustments, particularly on deciding what adjustments are necessary and would work best.

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Breaking for 15 minutes before another round of questioning.

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Recess is over and we're back to questioning.

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Dunstone begins to speak about making clear guidelines to schools about restrictive practices.

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Eastman asks whether the guidelines have been made in consultation with any young people or students.

Dunstone responds no, noting that there was consultation with experts.

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Eastman asks: for a child starting school in 2020, who is in need of support and adjustments, how will they see a difference with new policies?

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Eastman: will there be specific information provided to families starting in 2020 detailing what would be available to them?

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Eastman questioning about the results of school leavers from 2016-2018, and the changes in workplace participation and future employment dependign on whether students attended mainstream or special education schools.

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Dunstone saying she has high expectations for graduates of special schools. No particular explanation of what those expectations are based on or how they affect anything.

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Commissioner Atkinson clarifying that the question is whether students with #disability are having better outcomes from #InclusiveEducation than from special schools.

Dunstone seems to be struggling with this one.

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Ms Dunstone asked if a student with #disability is ever rejected from mainstream school, says she can't guarantee that but she would hope there are complaints made if that happens.

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Moving on to the effects of the Department's policies on the working life of teachers.

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Eastman asking about cultural change. "You can't be what you can't see." Asking about teachers with #disability in leadership positions, representation for students with #disability.

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Dunstone says the system does have teachers with #disability who are role models, and there are "no barriers" (no barriers at all? That would be surprising).

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Would have been nice to ask Kevin Bates of the Queensland Teachers Union about all these teachers with #disability, c.f. the conversation about increasing physical access to school buildings, which he seemed skeptical about...

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Eastman asks about a school that isn't inclusive, Dunstone prefers to call it "at the start of its inclusion journey."

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Eastman asks if there's a particular date by which the highest standard in the policy is what every school is measured against.

Dunstone refers to a number of other documents, school data providing a deeper layer to the improvement conversation...

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We seem to have moved on without an answer to the date question, so it's presumably no.

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Talking about how the Department shares success stories to help set positive examples for other schools.

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Dunstone says every regional director is committed to rolling out inclusion.

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Ms Eastman is now asking about complaints. Dunstone agrees with the importance of addressing them quickly, effectively and with an ongoing relationship between child, parents and teachers.

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Deloitte found that there was no central mechanism when it came to complaints from students with #disability.

They recommended building consistency in how complaints are treated throughout the state, and said that could be implemented immediately.

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Ms Dunstone says a centralised complaints mechanism has been implemented.

Ms Eastman asks about how a child with #disability can make a complaint.

Ms Dunstone is they go to the principal, and the complaint is best managed locally.

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Ms Eastman asks if it's the same model used for complaints by parents, as opposed to being accessible for a child.

Ms Dunstone says it's the same.

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If the complaint can't be resolved by the principal, it goes to the regional director.

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Eastman: Is there a process for a staff member to make a complaint if they observe treatment of a student with #disability that they are uncomfortable with?

Dunstone: The same mechanisms, but there are mandatory reporting obligations.

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Eastman asks if the complaints procedure is available in accessible formats for families and students with #disability. She refers back to an earlier witness describing a principal blaming her for her complaint. How can families know where to escalate?

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Dunstone says the complaints document may not be as accessible as it could or should be but is "reasonably easy to follow".

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Ms Dunstone also keeps referring to #NDIS partnership as something that will improve inclusive measures. What about the children with disability who don't qualify for the NDIS?

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Commissioner Atkinson asks what regional leadership can do about it if a parent complains about gatekeeping when trying to enrol at a particular school.

Ms Dunstone gives an example in which a principal called her for advice, which isn't quite that.

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Moving on to "special schools."

Ms Eastman is asking Ms Dunstone to confirm some of the details of how children "qualify" for those schools.

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They're looking at a recently-updated policy on enrolment criteria.

A person must have "a severe disability which includes intellectual disability."

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The criteria also refer to the student being unlikely to achieve their educational potential outside of a special school.

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Needless to say, the medical model is heavily embedded in the policy and accompanying guidelines (which they're also going through).

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The questioning is now going into how parents can get all the context they need to make a choice between mainstream and segregated schooling for their child.

Ms Dunstone acknowledges that some parents are pushed towards segregation.

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She says there's been a change so that parents thinking about removing their child from a mainstream school now speak to the principal of that school first to see if anything can be improved there, before applying to a special school.

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Ms Eastman asks if special schools have a different curriculum, and Ms Dunstone says no, it's the Australian curriculum, but the content might be different.

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Ms Eastman is asking more questions about "special schools." Is there a process of transitioning from a special school to a child's local school?

Dunstone: Yes. Our special school principals work with student, family, other school.

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Ms Eastman asks why there hasn't been any decomissioning of special schools over the last 9 years, and whether enrolment has increased.

Ms Dunstone says enrolment has only increased proportionally to students enrolling in mainstream schools.

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Ms Eastman asks why that is.

Ms Dunstone just quotes the numbers.

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Asked again, Ms Dunstone says families want to choose the best choice for their children.

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Commissioner Atkinson trying to ask if any mainstream schools that are doing very well at inclusion have lost students to special schools.

Ms Dunstone says that data isn't available.

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Ms Dunstone repeats that the system is on a journey and says it's a very difficult decision for parents.

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Commissioner Galbally asks if there's data on students transitioning from special schools to sheltered workshops.

Ms Dunstone doesn't have that data. Ms Eastman says they're looking into whether the data is available.

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Ms Eastman is bringing up one of the documents before the #DisabilityRoyalCommission that has a pie chart on the next steps of students who graduate special schools.

She says 3.5% of those who responded to the survey went from special school to open employment.

Ms Dunstone says she hopes that the #NDIS is helping to change that number through additional support for employment - the data is from 2016.

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Ms Eastman says there's also data from 2017.

The Chair is suggesting the Department of Education needs to do some homework.

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Ms Eastman: Do you agree that there is no longer a need for special schools in Queensland?

Ms Dunstone says she's not in a position to comment on that, or on the 15-year timeframe suggested yesterday.

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Ms Eastman asks Ms Dunstone for her wishlist.

Ms Dunstone: We are proud of the improvements that have taken place, but we know we have a lot more work to do.

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She says the transition is not easy, and covers every aspect of the system. Every change has to involve all stakeholders, many with competing views and expectations.

"But we are committed to continuing the journey" towards inclusion.

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Ms Dunstone hopes the #DisabilityRoyalCommission raises awareness about #InclusiveEducation.

Ms McMillan brings up what previous witnesses have said about teacher aides and asks Ms Dunstone to comment.

Ms Dunstone says they are an incredibly valuable resource, an integral part of school communities.

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Dunstone: Our teacher aides are highly skilled and provide specialised support including personal care.

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McMillan: Ms Pritchard said the funding model was 40 years out of date, and we need a more flexible model. Asks for a response.

Dunstone: Larger schools have more flexibility.

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Dunstone: The historic model is important, it's how we staff schools and meet the parameters of the budget in which we need to operate.

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Chair asks if there can be financial incentives for principals to achieve inclusion, Dunstone says no.

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Ms McMillan is asking about access to policy for parents with less electronic access, perhaps less English fluency. How do schools engage more broadly with groups who may not be able to read the policy doc online?

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Ms Dunstone says teacher aides who belong to the same sociocultural groups as families are very helpful in communicating with them. "Every school principal has a range of strategies."

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Chair says he has a hypothetical question, not necessarily to be answered immediately.

Assuming either the Commonwealth or Queensland enacts legislation to comply with #CRPD right to #InclusiveEducation...

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...and assuming that will involve closing special schools and providing all reasonable adjustments to all students, and thinking about the suggested timeframe of 15 years, what additional resources would Queensland need to implement this over 15 years?

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He says he'll want to put the same question to other states and territories as well.

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Ms McMillan says to be fair, they probably need to hear from the principals of special schools.

Chair agrees that they need to hear all sides of the argument on any issue, and says any submissions of that nature will be considered.

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Dr Mellifont is now starting to wrap up, thanking all the witnesses and staff.

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She says this week is just the beginning. The Commission is aware that the topic of education is vast and they will need a lot more on this topic. Let's hope that's going to centre witnesses with #disability!

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She says future hearings will look into private schools as well as state schools, and that this isn't the last hearing that will looks at Queensland education system.

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She also reminds viewers that submissions are still open and they want to hear from anyone who has experiences to share.

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She reiterates that providing legal advice does not imply that anyone has done anything wrong, just connecting people to lawyers in case they have questions about the legal aspects of their evidence.

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Dr Mellifont says the absence of children and young people giving direct evidence this week is not a sign that the Commission doesn't want to hear from them. "We are hopeful to hear the voices of young people in future public hearings."

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Mellifont: This week's evidence has made it very clear the critical importance of the right to education, of not devaluing a student with a disability or lowering expectations of what they can do.

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Mellifont: It's highlighted the critical importance of opening the eyes of the public to the benefits of #InclusiveEducation

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She quotes Ms Swancutt from yesterday: "We can’t possibly be happy with what we are currently doing because history has reminded us time and again...

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...that the segregation & othering of diverse groups of our own human kind results in the most horrific outcomes which linger for many decades & transcend generations. We have known better for an awfully long time. We must act with urgency & do better." #DisabilityRoyalCommission

Chair Sackville is now thanking everyone, including the Auslan interpreters and those working on the real-time transcript.

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He's also saying that grilling the QLD officials doesn't imply they're doing worse than other states - they also want to highlight best practice.

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Sackville again urges people with #disability to tell the #DisabilityRoyalCommission about their experiences in all the areas it's looking at. He encourages First Nations people and culturally & linguistically diverse people to participate.

We're done folks! Thanks to those of you that stuck with us for this... dare we call it a journey?