Thread by @palimondo

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke I lived in Pulheim (next to Cologne🇩🇪) from 2013–2017, but my German is not good enough to understand legalese. I’m using Google translate to help me and it’s long… I’ll finish tomorrow.

How about I’ll begin with a summary of your argument then?

translate.google.com/translate?dept…

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke ~~~~~~~~~~
Sorry for the midnight drop!
I’ve been working on the English summary of “Zensurmaschine” yesterday + today and it took me whole evening to catch up with the discussion in the rest of the thread.

@TheSchommes’ abbreviated argument:
~~~~~~~~~~
hornschuh-musik.de/282-2

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke Censorship can be done only by the State. Otherwise, a private intervention such as the refusal to publish article by a news publisher would be an act of censorship.

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke If the argument was that filters are indirectly imposed in the directive, they lack the important aspect of specificity, because only state interference in the exchange of ideas that is targeted towards a certain part of opinions counts (eg. ban opposing the copyright directive).

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke An indiscriminate intervention in all opinions, however, whether left, right, liberal or whatever, is not a censorship. The state may therefore intervene in the freedom of expression as long as the intervention is only "general" or "untargeted".

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke Therefore the “censorship machine” is just a popular meme fueled by
vocal lawyers critical of the issue, like Thomas Stadler or Christian Solmecke, who are speaking about controversial topic in order to gain clients and their biased statements are a pure case of self-promotion.

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke # Case of #FreedomOfExpression

The charge that #Article13 is restricting the freedom of expression is composed of a chain of unsubstantiated claims (AI can’t recognize...) and equally baseless assertions (huge # of false positives).

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke How would this charge play in courts?

See:

https://twitter.com/palimondo/status/1103111752768782337?s=21

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke Argument summary:
* Private corp. cannot, by definition, engage in an act of censorship. Only the State can.
* Even if, in the extremely unlikely scenario, the Federal Constitutional Court heard the case, and agreed that #UploadFilters caused harm to U, it’s all YouTube’s fault:

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke • Filters are not directly mentioned in the directive.
• To rely purely on automation was YouTube’s own choice.
• They could afford to use hybrid process with human review, but chose not to.
• Nothing’s forcing YT to publish uploads online immediately.

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke “YouTube could operate more like a newspaper publishing reader’s letters. Sometimes, a certain deceleration in a debate may even promote quality...” said the judge with a smug smile.
😏

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke # What’s in the balance

Why try the case of “false positive”? To demonstrate it’s not as question of yes/no filtering. YouTube must balance two requirements:
* “best efforts“ to defend rights holders’ interests
* “proportionality” towards users

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke YouTube’s economic considerations play minor role, they must first ensure their business model doesn’t violate 3rd party rights.

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke German law defines a responsibility for damages in case my property is harming yours. I’m also directly liable when my property enables others to cause harm in case I:
* know about it,
* don’t act against 3rd party, and
* direct claim against 3rd party is unlikely to succeed.

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke That is the default, but the Internet companies are exempt from this by the so called Safe Harbor provisions. That’s because in the ‘90s German FDP Party argued it was necessary for enabling the development of Internet commerce.

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke These days, the Internet is bustling, but the companies joined in bitkom.org and eco.com are holding on to this privilege for economic reasons.

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke It’s impossible to test the constitutionality of #Article13 vis-a-vis restriction of the #FreedomOfExpression by bringing a lawsuit from the platforms affected by directive, because they cannot argue one behalf of their users. German law has no class action.

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke Option b): Issue could be raised by the Opposition during the regulatory review. Arguments for unconstitutionally of the German law that implements the copyright directive would have to be raised by the Opposition parties against the federal government which proposes the law.

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke At that point, it’s no longer enough to work with empty phrases like “disastrous”.
Of course the presumed deployment of #UploadFilters will cause false positives. But constitutional law applies principle of practical concordance.

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke Which means that the future law’s damage to freedom of expression caused by false positives will be weight against existing and every day increasing damages the property rights of copyright holders.

The latter is know as the “Value Gap” and is scientifically quite well studied.

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke However for the expected damage caused by the false positives, there are only crystal-ball-carrying opponents of #Article13 . Event though 🔮 is too much already, because the damage is just baselessly alleged without any factual substantiation.

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke # Conclusion: All Clear

The problem is grossly overestimated. From the global pie of all the interpersonal communication, only a small part is carried over the Internet. From this, even smaller part is carried on platforms covered by #Article13 of the Copyright Directive.

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke And from this sliver of a sliver, again only a small fraction is 3rd party content.

In turn, of this fraction of a fraction of a fraction, the dreaded filters will capture only a fraction, and only a fraction of it will eventually have "false positives."

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke The bottom line is that only a tiny fraction of global total communication is captured by false positives.

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke A Constitutional Court, which weighs this damage against the damage of the value gap, will also take into account that the communication barrier through filtering is not a definitive one, because the person affected by such filtering has other options to express his opinion:

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke 1️⃣ redress mechanism provided for in the Directive (Article 13 (8));
2️⃣ legal process;
3️⃣ re-post the opinion again without the problematic parts caught by filters or
4️⃣ publish the opinion on another channel (platform not covered by #Art13 or outside the internet).

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke Given all the safeguard in the #Article13 of the Directive:
(4)(a) principle of proportionality,
(5) ban on general surveillance,
(7) exceptions for startups,
limiting the “disastrous” damage to #FreedomOfExpression should be outweight by the “Value Gap”.

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke It may help that all Federal Constitutional Court judges are old enough to remember that the free exchange of ideas was possible even before the advent of Internet. They also won't be impressed by the ageist charge that they are just old people who don’t understand the Internet.

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke Unfortunately, a debate at this analytical level is no longer possible, at least since @Senficon had the ingenious idea to use flat lies like “Memes will be banned” to exploit teenagers for political influence on their parents.

// The END

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke .@TheSchommes,

Can you confirm that this a fair representation of your published argument for the #Article13?

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke Correction: eco.de

@TheSchommes @daniel_wwf @HelgaTruepel @ackreti @kylotan @Isarjunge1 @Falkvinge @StefanBrindusa @Jamie_Foxworthy @Michael_02895 @condr3t @Desamii @EagyptM @ronin_sam @GercaAG @helienne @IMPALAMusic @Europarl_EN @EUCouncil @EP_Legal @ro2019eu @GabrielMariya @Ansip_EU @AxelVossMdEP @MinistereCC @BundesKultur @CorinaRascanu @SHKMEP @VRoziere @Piratenpartei @Senficon @doctorow @solmecke @threadreaderapp unroll please