Thread by @GrataFund

Before we get started today, here is the written submissions of the Respondent before the Tribunal regarding @jpwarren's #FOI #robodebt case (scroll to the bottom of the webpage). @WeFightForFair

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@jpwarren @WeFightForFair Leonie McGregor (LM) is the second witness, First Assistant Sec at PM&C. Wasn’t able to tweet Berger QCs examination, however, it focused on how NPPs are created and processes of Cabinet and the Expenditure Review Committee.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair Back after a recess. LM is talking about how some documents were used to inform the work in it’s final interaction in the NPP. Based on titles and descriptions and elements of proposals in documents.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair Berger QC- asks about docs 1,2,3 - have they been formatted in a familiar way? LM- formatted as a departmental costing.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair Berger QC asks docs 5,6,7, 8. LM says these are all costing docs that include elements of a formula template, and other elements that would be required by Dept., finance to agree on costings.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair Doc 12? LM- this is an underlying document that incorporates elements that relate to assumptions about underpinning costings?
Berger QC- how does this form part of the deliberative process? LM all docs form part of the deliberative process and in particular the budget.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair On break now, but here's a summary of Brennan SCs cross-examination of LM.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair Lots of questions focusing on the 'authority of Govts, in particular when there are changes in PM after an election or a leadership spill. LM- I would say the authority can continue should the Govt not change (even though it would be a change of PM).

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair Brennan... Would you say that you did not have any experience in the Cabinet process of the Abbott Govt?

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair LM- no, my experience of those processes at that time was as a branch head in the Cabinet division. I also worked as a senior advisor of social policy in Abbott's office and was intimately involved in the Cabinet process in that role.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair LM says she also had experience with the Turnbull Cabinet.
Brennan... You know that one of the things Turnbull promised was the restoration of a traditional Cabinet process and that he made that statement repeatedly. LM.. would need to see that to be sure.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair Brennan SC… change in the process is that Sinodinos who was a Cabinet Minister was also a Secretary of Cabinet. That was a fundamental change to the process as you have described in your affidavit. LM.. I don’t think so.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair Brennan... would you accept that there are times where a Sec may form a view that a minister may ask for an NPP to be created, and it’s appropriate for the NPP to be developed in advance of a request of the minister.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair LM.. an NP involves a significant amount of work and in my experience secretaries commence NPPs once authority has been provided. I can’t recall one being developed without authority.

Back and forth about this being a proper approach and whether or not LM has experience of it.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair Brennan (TBSC) - you accept it’s common for the ERC to ask Depts to make savings in their areas, and a Sec might form a view as to whether their minister may be the recipient of that request. LM.. can’t comment on how they inform their views.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair Back and forth about Dep Secs developing proposals for savings before being asked by their ministers in the context of the efficiency dividend.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair Onto the docs in question...

TBSC… the docs described an in reference to a Cabinet process reach right back to the preparatory work of the Dept and the Dep and minister, before minister decides to take it to Cabinet.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair ...The docs referenced were created for the purpose of the Dept and Minister before it was known if it would go anywhere near the Cabinet.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair LM… the work I describe is work that is part of a process of policy consideration being given the authority by the Govt with the intention it will come forward for deliberation by the Cabinet.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair TBSC... The early stages of this work is work done at a point of time whenever it hasn't been decided if it’s going to go anywhere near Cabinet.
LM- I would say the docs have authority and are part of a process designed to go into Cabinet.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair TBSC.. as you describe no work is done on an NPP of Cabinet proposal unless the ERC, (PM, treasurer, minister for finance) has decided that work should go forward.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair LM… in my experience work on NPPs work including costings would not commence unless the authority has been provided by the Govt in one way.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair LM… there are a range of different processes through which authority can be provided, (in addition to the ERC) charter letters, election commitments and Govts agreement to those through the Cabinet process.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair TBSC.. charter letters is another way of saying PM, and election commitments is Cabinet rather than the ERC?

Yes.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair TBSC.. you say work on an NPP would not commence without the authority you’ve just agreed to. What if the responsible portfolio minister disagrees. LM.. my experience is ministers will normally comply with those requests.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair Brennan... Approval process is authority by govt, and then approval by the minister and then the work commences?

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair .. these docs were created with two different Depts, Payne Human services and Morrison Social Services, with Morrison as the portfolio minister. You don’t have an experience of how these two ministers worked? LM.. I don’t.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair TBSC.. so you simply don’t know when Morrison was asked for his approval for doc 9? LM… I can see the doc is an NPP, my understanding and experience of this process is that a minister will be looking at the dev of NPPS with his dept.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair TBSC.. you don’t know if it was Minister Payne or Morrison. You’ve agreed you don’t have any experience of how these ministers worked together? LM.. in this instance, no.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair Onto #robodebt specifically. Brennan covers the large scale of the scheme and the revenue it was expected to bring into the budget. To the #FOI specifically...

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair TBSC... If I told you that docs 4, 9 and 10 are the only docs the Dept has in its possession of the PAYG data matching project of whether it was a wise thing to sponsor. LM.. I can’t comment on that.

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair TBSC... if I ask you to assume doc 9 is the only doc in the possession of human services that constitutes a business case to the PAYG data matching project, you can’t say if it was used by DHS internally to consider if at all it was a prudent thing to...

@jpwarren @WeFightForFair take forward for the govt to consider. LM… the doc I see is an NPP, I can’t comment on what DHS did with it internally.

Back in session, TBSC continues to cross-examine LM. We'll be taking a short break from tweets, but media and the public can apply for a link to watch the proceedings by emailing [e-mail] with full name and a request to view the hearing No.2019/7870.

TBSC… Asking about whether or not the docs were uploaded to a Cabinet portal by Social Services or Human Services.

LM.. don’t know. (This goes to where the authority came from for drafting NPPS, Payne or Morrison.)

TBSC… there was no (Cabinet) deliberation on NPP 2 or 3 was there? Later deliberations would reveal the contents docs 2 and 3, but there were no deliberations on those docs were there? There was no Cabinet meeting where any consideration was given to NPP2 was there?

LM.. NPP 2 is an NPP under development and in draft and as such is part of the deliberative process, and that doc or a version of it may well have been considered in the deliberative process.

TBSC… Is NPP 2 itself a draft or an NPP?

LM.. it’s an NPP.

TBSC.. my question is in respect to NPP 2, there was no Cabinet meeting in which NPP was discussed or considered was there?

LM… not that we’ve seen.

TBSC… Same on Cabinet committee meetings? LM.. on that specific doc, no.

Same line of questioning with other documents, same answers from LM.