Thread by @barandbench

#MadrasHighCourt hears challenge to TN ban on #onlinerummy and poker

CJ: We will hear all rummy, then poker players. Endeavor on part of rummy players would be that it is a game of skill, not chance. Then, poker players also, in their poker-faced arguments, will say the same...

Court proposes to hear all arguments from the beginning since when the matter was taken up last, Advocate General R Shunmugasundaram was not there.

CJ: Who's opposing? Only Advocate General?

AG: Yes, I am one-man army

#MadrasHighCourt #OnlineGaming #OnlineRummy #OnlinePoker

@DrAMSinghvi argues on measures to ensure there are no minor #onlinerummy players.

CJ: (If) it's a game of skill, why don’t you allow minors?

Singhvi: We have enough problems even if it's a game of skill. Today the argument is that even this game of skill corrupts minors' minds

CJ: It also involves money and things.. so if the person is a minor, they won't be able to contract.

#MadrasHighCourt #OnlineGames #OnlineRummy

Singhvi says that a host of prejudices is unleashed.

#MHC CJ observes similar prejudice is there when it comes to alcohol.

Singhvi: Drinking is the only ironical expression. It is Constitutionally viced. But, barring one or few States,
the highest earner and fully licensed.

Singhvi: There can be no game of cards that is completely skill. How you deal out the cards is chance. That in life is called destiny. In cards, it's called chance.

But that does not make it a game of chance, he argues.

#MadrasHighCourt #OnlineRummy #OnlineGames

CJ: We are not concerned with the ban per se. We are concerned with the platform that you run. Because on the platform you allow people to bet, wager, bid ... betting or gambling aspect is quite independent of the game itself.

#MadrasHighCourt #OnlineRummy #OnlineGames

Singhvi argues, if rummy is being prohibited this way, "We can only play rummy inside our homes and with no stakes at all."

I happen to be a teetotaller, not familiar with rummy, I used to be called as umpire in Diwali parties. Everybody would laugh if you played w/o stakes

Singhvi argues against paternalistic approach by State: In some Diwali parties, the stakes at tables are staggering. It may be a great way of winning money and losing money also, but that's your choice

#MadrasHighCourt #OnlineRummy #OnlineGames

CJ: Experience shows that many families have been ruined because of horse racing. If the State takes a policy decision, to what extent can we interfere? The state perceives it to be detrimental to larger interest

Singhvi: Policy is subject to Constitution.

#MadrasHighCourt

CJ: All that this law does is prohibit rummy that is online with stakes. #Rummy is not being prohibited, it's with stakes and online. Whether it's online or not is not material. In a gaming house, it can be supervised. Online, it cannot be supervised. So it is being prohibited.

What people want to do after arming themselves on the internet, to what extent can you control? Only rummy players are being gone after?Singhvi asks

Singhvi: Now sites are being taken down, but otherwise there are graphic descriptions on how to make a bomb also

#MadrasHighCourt

Laws of the 30s and 40s gave exceptions to games of skill; for 90 years there was a method to the madness because it pertained to the codification of a constitutionally protected activity, Singhvi argues.

#MadrasHighCourt #OnlineRummy #OnlineGames

The mere addition of stakes to a game of skill cannot make it a game of chance or attract a valid ban, Singhvi argues.

#MadrasHighCourt #OnlineRummy #OnlineGames

There are thousands of other activities that are noxious. Online gaming by people above 18 cannot be banned. That is a paternalistic value judgment that cannot be allowed, it has to fall within Article 14, Article 19(1)(g), Singhvi.

#MadrasHighCourt #OnlineRummy #OnlineGames

Singhvi says that there are three stands to consider:

1. Whether it is a game of skill, yes;
2. Whether it can be played without cheating, yes;
3. Can be played without noxious activities, yes.

#MadrasHighCourt #OnlineRummy #OnlineGames

CJ: Betting on cricket is not prohibited in this country. So what do we do? On our sense of morality?

Singhvi: May I just say this, the real reason why it is looked at is, because the betting has led to real corruption

CJ: “Fixing"

#MadrasHighCourt #OnlineRummy #OnlineGames

Singhvi: I don't know to what extent betting has been banned on cricket.

Senior Advocate PS Raman: In Tamil Nadu, you cannot bet on cricket matches.

#MadrasHighCourt #OnlineRummy #OnlineGames

CJ: We are placing in two distinct zones. The activity may be a game of skill that may not have any nexus with betting surrounding the activity. If someone were to bet, how long will Mr. Singhvi address us, it is absurd, but nothing immoral about it

#MadrasHighCourt #OnlineRummy

Singhvi: Answer has to be, whether betting is creating something problematic. Betting per se is done in thousands of cases. How many things are you going to ban? Everyone is betting on everything. It has to be an answer where some reasonableness has to be shown on Art 14, 19, 21

CJ: There are stories from yesteryears when the rich met at the Calcutta Maidaan, and they would see a bird. "Which direction would the bird fly in?" - there would be immense betting.

#MadrasHighCourt #OnlineRummy #OnlineGames

Singhvi: There are any number of bettings. Can you say it is per se noxious? Have you banned liquor? Other noxious activities, smoking? Just see the proportion. People who play online rummy ...

#MadrasHighCourt #OnlineRummy #OnlineGames

CJ: With the invasion of the mobile phone and these apps being available on any smart phone and everyone, right down to the unskilled worker has access to a basic smartphone - those Chinese manufactured smart phones cost nothing at all.

#MadrasHighCourt #OnlineRummy #OnlineGames

Singhvi: This is not a scourge. It has to be a scourge of very high proportion to pass the test for a ban.

I don't find it to be so high a scourge as liquor, smoking, lotteries all of which are permitted, and revenue is made of them, he adds.

#MadrasHighCourt #OnlineRummy

Singhvi speaks on how liquor is not prohibited.

CJ to Singhvi (who submitted he is a teetotaller): If you haven't tasted it, how will you understand?

Singhvi: I am an occasional trespasser, as typical of teetotallers, I have a taste for 1/ 2 sweet items

#MadrasHighCourt

CJ: Experience shows, in gambling, you tend to get addicted. The more you think there is a chance to recover, the deeper you fall. if State wants to address it, can we interfere?

Singhvi: Not only can but should interfere. Otherwise, paternalism will take over liberalism

Singhvi: There are a lot of self-harm things that people want to do. Today, kindly consider, no one is suggesting that you must go out of your way to encourage gambling. (But) What is the meaning of state lotteries? There are state-sponsored lotteries.

#MadrasHighCourt

Singhvi adds that if a paternalistic approach is followed, that will be the end of Article 21 (personal liberty) and free choice.

#OnlineRummy #OnlineGames #MadrasHighCourt

Singhvi: Everything that is wrong, repetitive, addictive - which includes caffeine, if you go down to it - by the subjective moral sense of someone else (will end). It has not worked in actual practice.

#OnlineRummy #OnlineGames #MadrasHighCourt

Singhvi adds that there is another extreme taking the example of anti-vaxxers in the USA.

There is a movement going on that vaccinating oneself is against liberty, he points out. But this issue is easily answered as not taking the vaccine would cause harm to others.

Singhvi: That is easily answered. Vaccinating is an intrusion. But it is harmful (to others if one does not take the vaccine)

CJ: We have prima facie expressed a view, but some other High Court has expressed that it is a violation of Fundamental Rights.

#MadrasHighCourt

Singhvi: You may be violating someone else's Fundamental Right (if not vaccinated)

CJ: Exactly! It is like how far you can stretch your hand. You can stretch up to neighbor's nose (but cannot swing to touch the nose)

Singhvi agrees:Your swing stops where other man's nose starts

Singhvi: How much more can your Lordships can say it is an intrusion to stop me from betting? In that case, no betting on any activity can be allowed

CJ: Very well. We'll continue tomorrow. Dr Singhvi, how long will you take?

#MadrasHighCourt

Singhvi says he will finish tomorrow, in any event he has to speak in another judge's farewell at 4.30 pm.

Hearing is over, to continue tomorrow afternoon.

#MadrasHighCourt #OnlineRummy #OnlineGames