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#DisclosuresTribunal Alison O'Reilly answering questions again. Counsel 4 Debbie McCann confirms McCann did have pp wiped but it wasn't by way of favour. She wrote to supt (she was 5kph over limit and caught by van) and he decided he would have used discretion had he stopped her
#DisclosuresTribunal Hugh Mohan, for McCann, said this was told in conference and not in a conversation pertaining to Sgt McCabe
#DisclosuresTribunal Mohan, for McCann, is arguing that O'Reilly's timeline isn't correct. Mohan tells tribunal McCann never said to AOR that Sgt McCabe was a child abuser. AOR saying this is all new to her.
#DisclosuresTribunal Mohan says that McCann and certainly AOR had discussions about Sgt McCabe but this idea she was negatively briefing against Sgt McCabe and categorically saying he was a child abuser isn't true.
#DisclosuresTribunal Mohan repeats they did converse about the sexual allegations against Sgt McCabe but she takes issue with claim she called Sgt McCabe a child abuser. Mohan says she wasn't "demonic" or "categoric". "That was never the way she had discussed it with you"
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge takes issue with word "demonic".
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR: She said Dave Taylor said she [Ms D] was in a bad way.
Mohan: She said that didn't happen. AOR: I stand over everything I've said.
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR has said five times that this response from Mohan, on behalf of McCann, is the first she's heard of it. Marrinan SC, for tribunal, steps in and says that this isn't fair that this is introduced at this juncture and that AOR is at a disadvantage.
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan says that McCann's instructions should be committed to paper. He also points out that AOR's claims were made long time ago. Judge repeats this to Mohan.
#DisclosuresTribunal Mohan says he'll send an updated statement to the tribunal. He's continued asking AOR questions.
#DisclosuresTribunal Mohan says - ahead of her visit to Ms D house - McCann got info from different sources, kept that to herself, got permission from ed Robert Cox, in hope of getting interview. Mohan: Her recollection of what happens tallies with what Mrs D said (about visit)
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR has told tribunal that McCann told her she interviewed Ms D for an hour. Mrs D said she turned McCann away and McCann says the same. Mohan says McCann categorically denies interviewing Ms D.
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR repeats that she believes either McCann is not telling the truth then or now.
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR has claimed that McCann told her that news editor Robert Cox and editor Conor O'Donnell wanted to run her story but that group editor Sebastian Hamiton put a stop to it.
#DisclosuresTribunal Mohan says if the paper published this 'fake' story would have closed the paper. AOR says reporters send in loads of stories all the time that didn't run. AOR repeats she has clear recollection of what she claims McCann said and stands over this.
#DisclosuresTribunal Mohan says Robert Cox, Conor O'Donnell and Sebastian Hamilton are all "aghast" at what she's telling the tribunal
#DisclosuresTribunal Mohan says detail of what AOR claims McCann told her about Ms D and gave to tribunal was already in public. Mohan mentions articles by Irish Times Conor Lally. Judge explains Mohan is suggesting she made it up based on material available. AOR: I didn't
#DisclosuresTribunal Mohan raises the exchange AOR claims occurred [AOR: "Where is this coming from, your pal Nóirín?" McCann: "Yes"] Mohan: "She never said that to you." AOR: "She did"
#DisclosuresTribunal Tribunal now hearing the evidence that was given by Mr and Mrs D about McCann's visit. [They all said Ms D didn't given interview to Debbie McCann]
#DisclosuresTribunal Tribunal hears Ms D told tribunal last summer: "I never met Debbie McCann". She also told how, in late January 2014, when she was in southeast of Ireland, she had received several calls from her parents to say reporters had called to the house.
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge steps in to say that AOR doesn't dispute/challenge any veracity of any account given by D family. Judge outlines that AOR is telling the tribunal what she claims was told to her. Judge points this out to counsel for An Garda Siochana too
#DisclosuresTribunal O'Higgins, for AGS, tells AOR he's going to stay out of the matter btw her and McCann.
#DisclosuresTribunal OH draw up statement to tribunal from retired det supt John McCann. In regards to AOR claim that he confirmed Ms D story for his daughter Debbie McCan, he has told tribunal "No I did not..."
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd] "...I have no idea who Ms D is, other than what I have read in the newspaper in the recent past." He also says: "I never spoke to my daughter about my Ms D.."
#DisclosuresTribunal Det Supt McCann also says he never gave information to his daughter in relation to Ms D, her family, the 2006 allegation or the false Tusla referral in May 2014
#DIsclosuresTribunal O'H now going to AOR's statement where it says: "Debbie said all of the gardai knew he was involved in abusing a girl who was now an adult and that there had been a big cover up..."
#DisclosuresTribunal "...within the gardai about it because he was a sergeant and a friend of the girl's father who was also a garda.." OH suggests the claim of a cover-up suggests this couldn't have come from Noirin O'Sullivan because McCabe would benefit from a cover-up
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR repeats that she can only tell the tribunal what she claims McCann told her.
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge is clear: Investigation into Sgt McCabe was a first-class investigation. He also says Chief Supt Clerkin's investigation into Supt Dave Taylor was first-class. Says he's not examining any allegation of any cover-up except what's before tribunal
#DisclosuresTribunal Tribunal is hearing timeline of AOR's legal actions against her employer in context of her statement to the tribunal and her subsequent meeting with them.
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR's counsel putting to AOR that she was accused of lying yesterday in relation to her interaction with the Mail's solicitor Michael Keeley [it's claimed she didn't tell him she was Brendan Howlin's source when he asked. She's claimed he didn't want to know]
#DisclosuresTribunal Tribunal sees memo written by AOR after the meeting (typed up two months after they were handwritten) which was about the tribunal - on foot of letters from the tribunal
#DisclosuresTribunal In the memo AOR recounts that before the meeting ended, Michael Keeley said Brendan Howlin had told the Dail he had "direction information" about NOS telling a journalist about McCAbe and sex allegation. He asked AOR if she was his source. In her memo...
#DisclosuresTribunal ..AOR said she said no because she didn't believe he was as she didn't tell BH she had direct info.
#DisclosuresTribunal Tribunal has already heard claims from AOR that MK told her he didn't want to know when she was going to tell him who told her about McCabe. AOR: "I just felt I was being told not to speak to the tribunal.."
#DisclosuresTribunal Justine McCarthy of The Sunday Times is giving evidence. McGuinness SC, for the tribunal, draws up this article she wrote:…
#DisclosuresTribunal hears McCarthy has told tribunal she was never briefed by any garda against Sgt McCabe. [Tribunal hears she has told it one garda spoke very positively about Sgt McCabe to her]
#DisclosuresTribunal McC's op piece includes the line: "Is it a coincidence that Williams’s reports began appearing in the same month that Tusla, the state’s child and family agency, created separate files on McCabe and each of his children..."
#DisclosuresTribunal McC confirms she had no information about that referral and only heard about it for the first time when Katie Hannon reported on it in February 2017 (Prime Time)
#DisclosuresTribunal McGuinness reads out this bit from McCarthy's op piece:
#DisclosuresTribunal And this bit...
#DIsclosuresTribunal McCarthy confirms it's entirely her own opinion.
#DisclosuresTribunal McG asks McCarthy about her use of term: "disintegration of public morality". McC says what that referred to was: The use of state agencies to undermine a whistleblower who was trying to put into the public domain information that was in the public interest"
#DisclosuresTribunal From McC's statement to tribunal: "My view of journalists' obligation to protect sources is that it is a fundamental value, designed to facilitate the emergence of infomation which it is in the public interest. However I believe the obligation fails if a.."
#DisclosuresTribunal [will come back to that] Justine McCarthy says she was told about the Sgt McCabe allegation by another journalist around late 2013. "I was stopped in my tracks by what he told me."
#DisclosuresTribunal McC: "I can't remember the specific words that were said to me but the impression, I came away from conversation with was that Sgt McCabe had been accused of sexually abusing a child and that the issue had not been concluded."
#DisclosuresTribunal McCarthy has told the tribunal the allegation "utterly shocked" her.
#DIsclosuresTribunal McC's statement refers to her being aware of rumour about Callinan making an allegation against McCabe to McGuinness. She said this was after May 2016 when McG said it in the Dail. She said she tried to ascertain if it was true (via a contact) but couldn't
#DisclosuresTribunal McCarthy said one of the reasons she felt satisfied that the info she got from the journalist was incorrect was the DPP's ruling. McCarthy says that the journalist who gave her the info wasn't trying to besmirch Sgt McCabe.
#DisclosuresTribunal This is what Justine McCarthy told the tribunal when asked about her view of journalistic privilege:
#DisclosuresTribunal Conor Dignam SC, for the AGS, asking McCarthy questions. At one point McCarthy said: "Just because they [journalists] didn't write the story, doesn't mean they didn't disseminate the story..."
#DisclosuresTribunal Dignam asking when she became aware of the rumour about the carpark meeting (i.e. what Callinan allegedly said to McGuinness). McC: Late 2016. McCarthy confirms she heard what McGuinness said in Dail about the carpark meeting in Dail on May 2016.
#DisclosuresTribunal CD asks McCarthy why she used the word "rumour" in her statement, McCarthy says because the rumour was in relation to a specific word that Call was alleged to have used. CD asks McC how did she come to know about it, McCarthy: A contact
#DisclosuresTribunal Journalist and DCU professor Colum Kenny is now giving evidence
#DisclosuresTribunal Kathleen Leader, for tribunal, is taking Kenny through his statements/evidence to the tribunal.
#DisclosuresTribunal Sees Kenny's statement to the tribunal sets out academically what a journalist is, what a source is, etc.
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny: Sources are complex, sources have to be worked by journalists - that's why there are beats, specialists, correspondents. Every journalist knows there's a danger to that relationship - you can get captured. A good editor should be conscious of that fact
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny: There are two streams of information coming from the guards: individual guards and the Garda Press Office
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny being asked about his view of off-the-record/on-the-record briefings.
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny says if a source gives you info that's damaging, there's an ethical responsibility on journalist to go to person involved and put the claim to that person. Kenny also says he's not even sure it's a source for a story, if it's a source for a defamation
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny (in relation to previous tweet) says he knows some of his colleagues don't agree with him
#DisclosuresTribunal Leader puts to Kenny that it's Justine's McCarthy's position that "malicious sources shouldn't be protected". Kenny is asked if he agrees. He said it depends on the particular circumstances i.e. was it true or false?
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny says he would be afraid that journalists invoking privilege in every case would bring the doctrine of privilege into disrepute.
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny lists off questions relevant to the matter and adds the situation isn't simple or black and white. But he says journalists cannot claim every source should be protected
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny describes media landscape as "besieged" at the moment - cutbacks, fake news, fewer staff, less experienced staff, etc.
#DisclosuresTribunal Leader turns to Sgt McCabe. L: Since April 2013, you began reporting in relation to the McCabe story. K: Correct.
#DisclosuresTribunal Tribunal sees Kenny's first article related to Sgt McCabe was April 7, 2013. [Most of these are related to penalty points matter] Leader: Those articles are questioning of Garda exercise of power?
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny explains he didn't jump into the story. He was approached to write about it and he said he met Sgt McCabe. "I never intended to cover the substance of the story"..he explained he wasn't a full-time journalist, he's a professor.
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny refers to the lost Fr Molloy computer and how Sgt McCabe (who wasn't involved in the investigation) was subjected to disciplinary proceedings. Kenny said this "appalled" and "shocked" him and he expected security correspondents to jump all over it
#DisclosuresTribunal More on this lost computer and the disciplinary proceedings against Sgt McCabe… These proceedings ended in August 2013 (around time fake rape referral went into circulation)
#DisclosuresTribunal Leader: These articles you wrote suggest you were supportive of McCabe. Kenny says he wasn't supportive, he was paid to write them. Says:
I cautioned him [McCabe] I wasn't his friend....this was normal journalistic exercise...hoping to achieve some resolution
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny said he was concerned about the publicity of writing about the missing computer - and the publicity that would ensue. He said there's nothing worse than being accused of sex abuse.
#DisclosuresTribunal Tribunal sees email Kenny sent to the Garda Press Office about this missing computer on March 18 2015 - with list of questions. GPO told Kenny it wouldn't comment on individual cases or investigations.
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny said he wouldn't consider the GPO a tremendous source of information in controversial circumstances but he thought they would in this case as it was years later. But it wasn't the case.
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny calls reportage by RTE of Garda Inspectorate Report was "out of order". He said it was reported on by RTE before report went out and there was an interview with Alan Shatter aswell. "I was not convinced RTE had seen all report..just part of the report"
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny said it was a pure exampled of spin- whether RTE got it from Department of Justice or An Garda Siochana. Kenny said it was spin which was unfavourable to Sgt McCabe.
#DisclosuresTribunal When the tribunal's term of references were published, Kenny said he wrote to Taoiseach as he felt, as tribunal was looking at a report by RTE on O'Higgins report (Paul Reynolds) it should also look at reportage of Garda Inspectorate report
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny saying two journalists told him about the allegation against McCabe. He says they told him that McCabe was BEING investigated. Kenny said he was told to cop himself on and not to take McCabe at face value
#DisclosuresTribunal [NOTE: Kenny said this conversation came about because he approached these two journalists - to sound them out - to understand where security correspondents were coming from in relation to re: missing computer.
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny says the two journalists were rubbishing Maurice McCabe
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny says the journalists were suggesting he should to gardai "out there". Kenny says he took that to mean people in Cavan/Monaghan area. He said he wasn't told any names
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny confirms one of the journalists is a security broadcaster journalist for the national broadcaster (RTE). Asked if he wants to name, Kenny pauses and then says: "I'd rather they name themselves"
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny says he had a call from another security correspondent a few weeks ago asking if he was going to name names. Kenny says there's "something about this that's unfortunate"..
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny asks judge what would help him. Judge says he could write down the names and the tribunal could write to them. Maybe they would say they've no recollection or rubbish it but I'm trying to get to the bottom of this..we've written to so many journalists..
#DisclosuresTribunal [Cntd] Kenny:... theres been so many delays, so little by way of cooperation, apart from missives about journalistic object is to try and test Dave Taylor's evidence in relation to where we stand...any assistance in that regard...
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny thanks the judge and thinks the idea of writing to the two journalists would be a good idea. Kenny says these two journalists are long-standing and respected journalists.
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny refers back to earlier comment and sends so much as the two journalists were trashing McCabe, Kenny says he doesn't believe they were personally motivated. Kenny said he felt in an awkward position.
#DisclosuresTribunal [NOTE: Kenny suggests it was easy to find out about the DPP letter/DPP decision which was given to Maurice McCabe. He did speak to McCabe after these two journalists allegedly said what they said to him]
#DisclosuresTribunal Sean Gillane SC, for RTE - including Paul Reynolds, Philip Boucher Hayes and John Burke - now asking questions of Kenny
#DisclosuresTribunal Gillane puts to Kenny that different journalists have different views re: protection of sources. Kenny says he doesn't believe its rocket science. Says: I think it's clear to most journalists what the ethical position is
#DisclosuresTribunal Gillane and Kenny now having back and forth about the idea of waiving privilege. Gillane mentions editors Frank Frank Fitzgibbon, Conor O'Donnell,. Sebastian Hamilton, Cliff Taylor - says they all have different views of privilege
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny: It all boils down to the the specific - we cannot have absolutely privilege - it brings the doctrine of privilege into disrepute
#DisclosuresTribunal Gillane presses the point - that different people have legitimately held different opinions. Judge points out he's here to report on specific things. Gillane says his clients have helped in that regard. Judge: I don't know about that now
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge points to the May 9 2016 report (by Paul Reynolds) in relation to the O'Higgins report. Judge: I'm not saying your client is being unhelpful and I'm not saying RTE hasn't co-operated...
#DisclosruesTribnal [cntd] Judge: I'm saying there is such thing as journalistic privilege ...if RTE is making that claim, I'll look at the circumstances....RTE hasn't given me everything and they may have a very good reason for that
#DisclosuresTribunal Gillane says RTE has answered every letter to the tribunal. Judge says he won't be conferring a medal on RTE, Gillane says he hasn't asked for one.
#DisclosuresTribunal Gillane asking Kenny about his criticism of the Garda Inspectorate report in March 2014 (about two weeks before Callinan's resignation). Kenny believes RTE's report was inaccurate. Kenny says RTE reported it had seen the report (ahead of publication)
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny says he asked RTE to confirm it had seen the full report but RTE wouldn't.
#DisclosuresTribunal Gillane says in the Six One report in March 2014, Paul Reynolds said the whistleblowers had been "vincidated". Kenny: I think you have to look at the whole report..when you compare with other media, there was a different emphasis.
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny repeats he doesn't feel RTE's report was based on the FULL GI report but instead just part of it. K: All I asked of RTE is if they'd seen the whole report...having reported they'd seen the report they wouldn't confirm they'd seen the whole report
#DisclosuresTribunal Noel Whelan, for An Garda Siochana, now asking questions of Colum Kenny (who isn't represented at the tribunal btw)
#DisclosuresTribunal Whelan basically asking Kenny about his academic opinion on how journalists should respond to protected disclosures.
#DisclosuresTribunal Whelan mentions Keith Harrison and Dave Taylor's protected disclosures. Whelan basically saying just because it's a protected disclosure, journalists shouldn't regard them as automatically valid/true (paraphrasing).
#DisclosuresTribunal Whelan: When a journalist or anyone else receives such an allegation - journalists needs to ask what's the angle of the person who is making the allegation?
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny: For any story, you should ask, where's the person coming from?
#DisclosuresTribunal Whelan asks Kenny about his view of coverage of Noirin O'Sullivan. Kenny says he finds it very hard to find sympathy for NOS. He says he thinks the Govt deserves a police service ft for purpose. Kenny: I haven't carefully analysed coverage of NOS
#DisclosuresTribunal Charleton tells Whelan that he could put all of this - suggestion NOS has been unfairly treated - in a submission. Whelan says he's nearly finished.
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny repeats he satisfied himself the allegations circulating about McCabe were untrue because he saw DPP letter (which he saw from McCabe). He earlier said it was easy to get this. Tribunal has heard Paul Williams didn't contact McCabe before his articles
#DisclosuresTribunal [NOTE: Tribunal hears that Kenny heard the allegation from the two journalists in early January 2014. Martin Callinan is alleged to have neg briefed four people in Jan 2014 and one (Philip Boucher Hayes) in Dec 2013. Callinan denies the allegations]
#DisclosuresTribunal INM's counsel asking Kenny questions now. Talking about the number of articles written about Sgt McCabe. INM counsel argues there was NO chilling effect against Sgt McCabe.
#DisclosuresTribunal INM counsel puts to Kenny that he had 24 articles in Sunday Independent between 2013 and 2017. INM counsel argues this proves there was no chilling effect on his journalism in INM.
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny: I felt that the seriousness of this story was such that I wished more interest had been taken to it by security correspondents.. INM counsel recalls work of Philip Ryan's work on Sgt McCabe.
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge says he hasn't found any articles which explicitly state that Sgt McCabe was driven by an agenda, never mind was accused of abuse. "It just doesn't seem to be out there"
#DisclosuresTribunal Michael McDowell SC, for Sgt McCabe, clarifies that McCabe wouldn't have shown the actual DPP directions to Kenny as he himself hasn't got that document.
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny confirms to tribunal he will tell the tribunal's investigators the names of the two journalists who led him to believe Sgt McCabe was BEING investigated for child abuse in Jan 2014. One he said earlier is a security broadcaster for RTE
#DisclosuresTribunal Kenny told the tribunal that a document outlining the position of DPP in relation to McCabe was sent to INM by way of verifying article/s he wrote. It's not as of yet clear when this was sent.
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