Two human beings I'd never expect to be in the same room together: @johnmacarthur and @benshapiro. They met in the Ben Shapiro Sunday Special and had a productive conversation about the role of morality in society as well as other interesting topics.
For @johnmacarthur, society functions best in a non-magisterial model where church & state are separate and citizens have to submit to governing authorities. He goes so far as to say that Xians are not called to be 'revolutionaries' and calls into question The Revolutionary War.
@johnmacarthur upholds the traditional evangelical model that a preacher's job is to preach the Gospel and that politics ought not to be the focal point of sermons though they are inextricably tied especially as a minister preaches on the family.
MacArthur stands for a basic Republican agenda politically though he reacts to politicizing the pulpit. It's a fine distinction. Politically, he also votes Republican. He states that the differences b/t both parties are much more profound that they were 50 years ago.
On that same note, MacArthur observes that when one party distinctly calls for the "murder of babies, it doesn't matter who is the guy on the other side. That party will not receive my vote."
Pastor MacArthur argues that the office of the president was never a moral office. His role is to direct a nation toward more righteousness but not to impose morality on the nation.
MacArthur emphasizes the quality of leaders in the Bible advocates both in II Samuel and Exodus where God instructs leaders to be moral and fear God. His vote is for the person who favors a more structured society.
MacArthur argues that there are three mechanisms to restrain evil in society: a) Conscience, b) parents, c) government.
@benshapiro argues that there are 2 forms of speaking truth into a culture: one is the biblical path where the Bible is the starting point and two is the "utilitarian Judeo-Christian path" where the Bible is not quoted directly but the principles are advocated.
MacArthur advocates the biblical approach, though he thinks both are reasonable. He argues that the biblical authority is to be preferred over "reasonableness" as an argument. IOW, if I tell someone to do this b/c it is reasonable, they can show where in history it wasn't.
@johnmacarthur shows his presuppositional stamina in his answer to Ben Shapiro. He is at his best there (around 15 minutes).
MacArthur is actually distinct in his view of government from his fellow evangelical friends. He doesn't see any rationale for taking up arms against the government, but we do have the biblical right to dissent when the gov. opposes the faith.
For the Christian, freedom of speech is the freedom to preach Christ even when society tells us not to...and then if we are opposed, we go to jail.
When Shapiro pushes (MacArthur -JM) on the end goal of a Christianized society--Theocracy--MacArthur pulls out his dispensational lexicon & argues that the failure of theocracy necessitated Jesus Christ. But we must keep the restraining elements in place to maintain order.
The one great thing about Shapiro is that as an orthodox Jew he is actually quite aware of Christian literature.
JM is still incapable of getting out of his limited matrix of baptistic interpretation. Christianity is merely a personal relationship with God and everything in between is an impediment.
For JM, the Reformation was a detachment from ecclesiocracy to personalized faith. In the European countries where the Reformation went, it developed societies, but in Catholic countries, there was a descent into Enlightenment; a departure of the true faith.
When someone says, I am spiritual, it's to say "I am my own God" in JM's philosophy. "It's a form of insanity to think that you can navigate the realities of eternity by looking into your own brain is pathetic."
"The Bible is its own defense." JM is embodying Spurgeon's philosophy. He argues that he has never had to defend the Bible since it has stood the test of scrutiny.
At 39 minutes JM says briefly that the "Old Testament elevates women." He moves on, but I can only imagine skeptics watching this ready to punch their screens.
For JM, the Bible never condones mistreating anyone, not even an animal. The NT view of slave is "doulos" and it is used dozens of times to refer to Xians. JM develops slavery into a wholly theological construct. Not something you hear done.
I am not sure @benshapiro has ever heard soo much Bible in an hour. It's the genius of @johnmacarthur. Whether at Larry King or wherever this man has one authority.
JM identifies homosexuality as a sin in both Old and New. Listen up @JoelOsteen. But it's not a sin far away from all other sins. In the NT, Paul says that such were some of you. The purpose is to confront the sinner's sin.
"Do you fear you might offend Democrats with your answers?" @johnmacarthur: "My purpose is to offend everyone."
MacArthur gives @benshapiro a brief overview of Isaiah 53 at 48 mins. This was terrific.
Really interesting point when @benshapiro says that when he reads Jesus it sounds like he is saying the same kinds of things Zechariah and Jeremiah are saying.
"The distinction between Judaism and Christianity is what we do with Jesus Christ."
@johnmacarthur ended with a beautiful benediction to @benshapiro. The exchange was everything I hoped for. @benshapiro, thanks for much for your labors and graciousness.
