@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer Ok, you seem desperate to bait me into engaging with your copy/paste arguments. So a few thoughts before I mute this conversation.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer This is an argument about ethics and morals. Morality is a practice. It’s not a mathematical proof.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer Every situation is different so the practice of morality is the practice of weighing interests and values among parties and navigating through a decision that often has no positive outcomes, just bad or worse.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer As a practice, it’s something that some people are better at than others. It’s sort of like being good at negotiating. Some people have this skill, some don’t, and like any other skill, you can get better at it over time with practice.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer But the idea that you can define any act a priori as universally right or wrong by playing word games on twitter is just silly.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer You seem to believe that through the proper deployment of sophistry you will reach a sort of a priori silver bullet that will allow you to declare checkmate! All abortions are murder! That’s a very immature attitude.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer But it’s the only game you seem capable of playing. That’s why you’re twisting yourself silly into trying to redefine a zygote, an embryo, and a fetus into a baby, child, or person.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer And why you simply won’t budge on the notion that destroying an embryo or fetus is morally equivalent to murdering a person.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer But here’s the plain truth of the matter. Get ready, this is gonna blow your mind. I’m about to answer, once and for all, the big question that seems to be bogging you down:
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer Is a fetus a person?
The answer is....
drum roll....
brace yourself....
Sort of. A fetus is sort of a person.
The answer is....
drum roll....
brace yourself....
Sort of. A fetus is sort of a person.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer The key insight you are missing is that there are degrees of personhood. It’s not a black or white, either or thing.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer A zygote has less personhood than an embryo, which has less personhood than an 8 week fetus, which has less personhood than a 40 week fetus.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer All of them have some degree of personhood. Their personhood develops over time. It’s not a fixed thing. That’s why it’s so difficult to say precisely when a “person” begins. You can’t, because it doesn’t work that way.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer So if you set the word games aside for a second, there’s no way around the fact that an 8 week old fetus is obviously, clearly, no duh not the exact same thing as a newborn baby or a 6 year old child or a 35 year old person.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer I realize your word games require you to stipulate that it is, over and over, which explains why your copy/paste replies are so tedious and repetitive.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer But no matter how many times you assert that an 8 week old fetus is the same thing as a newborn baby, that doesn’t make it so.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer Yes, a fetus is sort of a baby. It sort of even resembles a baby. You might even say it has the “potential” to be a baby. But it is not the same thing as a baby. It’s not the same thing as a child. It’s not the same thing as an adult person. Obviously.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer A person has consciousness, goals, preferences, subjectivity, continuity of identity over time, and a private internal dimension of experience. An 8 week old fetus has none of these. Nor does a 12 week old fetus.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer Even if you want to argue that it does, you must admit it has them to a far, far, FAR lesser extent than an adult human.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer Again, that doesn’t mean the human status of a fetus is zero. I just means that it’s less so. Doesn’t mean a fetus has zero moral standing, just less so.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer Here’s an example: I am a conscious being. I have consciousness. I also have a dog. My dog clearly has the “lights on” inside. He exhibits some of the same conscious traits that I have. So is my dog a conscious being? The answer again is: Sort of.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer He’s conscious-ish. But not even close to the degree that I am. As a result, his moral standing is definitely not zero, but it’s also not the same as mine. Or even yours.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer As a sort-of conscious being with the capacity to suffer, you could even say he has a primitive set of rights. The right not to be tortured, for example.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer But my dog’s rights are not the same as my rights or the rights of any other person. And I’m fine with that.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer A newly fertilized zygote has no consciousness, no capacity to suffer, no goals or projects, no hopes and dreams. It’s moral status isn’t zero, but it’s pretty darn close to that.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer That’s why I don’t hear you whining about how the morning after pill is an instance of child murder. If you DO believe that then you are not to be taken seriously.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer An 8 week fetus the size of a grain of rice has more personhood than a newly fertilized egg. But its continued existence depends entirely on it deriving nutrients from its mother’s body at her expense. It’s not technically a parasite, but damn near close.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer Every pregnancy is different but they all come with serious health risks to the mother, including death.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer Two parties do not have an identical right to life when one of the parties requires confiscating the body of the other party for an extended period of time, causing permanent physical changes and a non-zero chance of death.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer Think of the person you admire most in this world. Maybe a NASCAR driver or something like that.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer If that person got sick and could only be cured by confiscating your organ functions for nine months, you’d be entirely within your rights to refuse even though that would kill him. Does that make you a murderer? Nope.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer So even if we grant that the other party possesses full personhood and a right to life, that still doesn’t give that person the right to confiscate your body and put your entire future at risk.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer In the case of an 8-12 week fetus, that same principle stands. We can grant that the fetus possesses something like personhood. But it’s not the same degree of personhood that the mother possesses.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer Her (full) personhood, the potential threats to her life, and her right to prevent another person from violating her bodily autonomy outweigh the (non-zero, but definitely not absolute) rights of a 12 week fetus.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer The longer the fetus the develops, the more its personhood develops until it eventually approaches that of the mother. At some point, aborting that fetus starts to resemble something like homicide. But that doesn’t happen until later.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer That puts a moral obligation on the mother to, if she chooses, perform the abortion as early as possible. And that’s exactly how it does (and should) work in this country.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer The idea of the late term IJustDontWantABaby abortion is a complete myth, and in the rare instances when it does happen, it deserves to be condemned.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer But aborting a grain of rice at 8 weeks? I grant that it’s unpleasant, even sad, and should be avoided at all costs. This isn’t something people take joy in.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer But to pretend that unconscious grain of rice has the same moral status as a newborn baby, and that aborting it is an instance of homicide equivalent to dashing a young child’s brains out is just dishonest and weird.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer And your desire to enlist the state to threaten the use of violence against a newly pregnant woman to force her, against her will, to allow a foreign being to sap her body of its strength with permanent health consequences and a very real possibility of death is just chilling.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer The fact that you can’t see THAT as a gross violation of a very real, non-hypothetical person’s core right to life and autonomy, one that outweighs all other claims to her body, shows me that you have a GIGANTIC blind spot in your moral outlook.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer I’m sorry to embarrass you in front of all your followers. I know you like to think of yourself as a “ringer.” It’s not your fault. You couldn’t have known I was smarter and better at this than you when you spammed me with your tired talking points.
@Random_Phantom_ @Sam_DeLoach @stevieanntas @LeahNTorres @lisamshafer I am now muting this conversation. Have fun raging against me in silence. Let that serve as a metaphor.
/fin
/fin
