This is an interesting thread and makes several good points.
My personal (as an non practising Jew) view is this:
* Labour clearly has an anti-semitism problem
* I completely understand Jewish people being worried about a Corbyn led Labour party government
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My personal (as an non practising Jew) view is this:
* Labour clearly has an anti-semitism problem
* I completely understand Jewish people being worried about a Corbyn led Labour party government
/1
However,
I think Brexit makes everything worse. And it certainly wont help Jewish people.
Outcome A - Conservative majority and a hard brexit.
Without a doubt (IMHO) this will lead to a labour government the following election.
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I think Brexit makes everything worse. And it certainly wont help Jewish people.
Outcome A - Conservative majority and a hard brexit.
Without a doubt (IMHO) this will lead to a labour government the following election.
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Once the economic impact of Brexit bites, on top of a 15 years of Tory governance on top of austerity on top of the banking last banking crisis. Odds of a strong swing away from the ruling party after 15 years are high.
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But this time there will be no EU guardrails and quite possible as an outright labour majority.
Corbyn might not be leading Labour, but he will have pulled the party to the hard left, and the next leader might not be as disliked.
(see here: )
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Corbyn might not be leading Labour, but he will have pulled the party to the hard left, and the next leader might not be as disliked.
(see here: )
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Outcome B - A Johnson Conservative Majority is blocked.
It seems nearly impossible for a labour majority on current polling. Even if the LDs don't do that well, with the SNP taking Scotland, you're going to have a minority Labour government.
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It seems nearly impossible for a labour majority on current polling. Even if the LDs don't do that well, with the SNP taking Scotland, you're going to have a minority Labour government.
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So you whilst JC might be PM, it will be with the guardrails of the EU, the LDs and the SNP. This will limit I think the reality of can actually happen.
(And in fact might provide even more oversight of anti-semitic problems)
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(And in fact might provide even more oversight of anti-semitic problems)
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So my view is similar to @IanDunt 's here.
If you are pro-remain and do not want to see a Conservative majority, but that would require a vote of a Labour candidate, look at the individual candidate and their record on AS.
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If you are pro-remain and do not want to see a Conservative majority, but that would require a vote of a Labour candidate, look at the individual candidate and their record on AS.
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If the candidate has a poor record on AS, then don't vote for them. But if they personally are a decent candidate, and they have the best chance in your area of stopping a Tory Majority, then I personally would vote for them.
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I'm far more worried about brexit, than a potentially short term minority labour government.
Brexit makes anything worse. And as a Jew I'm far more uneasy about what removing FOM means, than Corbyn.
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Brexit makes anything worse. And as a Jew I'm far more uneasy about what removing FOM means, than Corbyn.
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Remember, that a lot of the EU* Project is a reaction to the war. It's not just about trade. It's also about trying to ensure long term peace and prosperity.
* Views differ on if this was the original intent, but it certainly is the expressed view now.
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* Views differ on if this was the original intent, but it certainly is the expressed view now.
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Brexit is forever.
Labour minority governments are not.
We have constitutional methods to remove bad governments and PMs.
We have nothing that replaces the EU's place and role* when it's gone.
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Labour minority governments are not.
We have constitutional methods to remove bad governments and PMs.
We have nothing that replaces the EU's place and role* when it's gone.
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* As a countervailing force to the worst excesses of Tory/Labour governments.
If you're worried about a Labour (or any) government now, I'd be more worried about what we they can do after Brexit.
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If you're worried about a Labour (or any) government now, I'd be more worried about what we they can do after Brexit.
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Brexit makes everything worse.
/end
/end
Michel makes many good points, and a lot I'm going to take some time to digest.
I do however want to respond to a few of them
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I do however want to respond to a few of them
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Michel makes a good point that telling others how to deal with a real and present concern is patronising and arrogant. I accept that. What I had attempted to try explain _my personal_ thinking and views. And why _I personally_ would vote labour if I needed to.
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I possibly could have framed that more explicitly. And even so, I can see how this still can can come across that way. I'm not sure how I can express my views on the matter without getting close to this line, and it's something I will take more care of.
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Michel makes a further point of you can't ever appease racism even a tiny bit. And by voting labour this is what you're doing.
I don't believe it's quite so simple, or black and white.
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I don't believe it's quite so simple, or black and white.
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Firstly I don't believe voting for a Labour MP who has a good track record on AS, is appeasing racism. I specifically feel endorsing those MPs does help the fight.
The fight against Lab/AS will not solely be one at the ballot (because too much else gets lumped together)
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The fight against Lab/AS will not solely be one at the ballot (because too much else gets lumped together)
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So endorsing those in Labour who are good MPs I think is a positive. I accept for others they feel differently here and that any vote for labour is an endorsement. I have no issue with this view, I just feel personally different.
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(Side note: Growing in South Africa and watching Mandela bring the country together, took reaching across lines and specifically bringing people along for change. Many who had been life long members of a systemically racist party.)
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Finally, it's not just about AS in labour. I'm an immigrant. My wife is an European immigrant. Brexit for me is a also about the racism, that this brings. The concerns that this brings. EU Friends in our community have already left the country.
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So which project do I not give "an inch" too? The one that is anti my heritage, or the one that is anti my family?
Both do enormous harm to me and my family. As a Jew. As an immigrant. As a European Family.
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Both do enormous harm to me and my family. As a Jew. As an immigrant. As a European Family.
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My calculus is the brexit project is more dangerous. Not that LAB AS issues are not dangerous. But that Brexit brings more risk.
Other Jewish people have made different calculations. For which I hold no criticism.
But this is my calculation.
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Other Jewish people have made different calculations. For which I hold no criticism.
But this is my calculation.
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(and with that it's dinner time. Thanks for the polite and reasoned response to to my thread. It's much approached and nice to be able to have reasoned debate)
