Thread by @nickwallis

We’re back in court for the afternoon session of Day 3 of the Bates and others v Post Office trial. The third lead claimaint - Mohammad Sabir has just been sworn in. PO QC questioning…

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Started work 9 September 2006 at the Cottingly branch and terminated in 2009.

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QC suggests his memory won’t be too good.
MS Some things I can remember, but I can’t remember everything.

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QC going through his cv - which shows he had worked a lot with money and accounting procedures.

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QC saying he had to be good on detail and careful, correct?
MS agrees he was careful and he had to prepare the information being provided by the clients.
QC You are not commercially naive, are you?
MS doesn’t understand the q
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MS does not have very good English.
QC you were experienced?
MS I was not the main accountant, only an assistant in both jobs.
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MS took over another Post OFfice in Crossflats in 2007, so he had two offices until being terminated in 2009.
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QC trying to say he used his business skills and acumen to decide whether or not to take the Post Office contract.
MS says he used his skills in his job.
QC gives up.
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QC tries another tack.
QC says he discussed buying a PO with his business partner.
MS agrees
QC says he contracted agents to find him likely POs
MS agrees
QC said he did his research into the job
MS agrees
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QC you got - did you not a good idea of what the financial side of running a post office might be like?
MS agrees
My computer is on go-slow. I am going to have to reboot. Give me 5 mins…
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Sorry about that.
QC wants to know why MS assumed taking on a PO was a stable and secure income.
MS My own thinking
QC it must have come from somewhere.
QC says that if he was incompetent would be grounds for dismissing him?
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MS disagrees
QC you think the Post Office should not dismiss you even if you were incompetent?
MS there was a very long procedure to get the Post Office - I would not have been hired if I was incompetent.
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I am paraphrasing all this - the QC is having to ask the same question several times and MS’s understanding of English isn’t good - not is his spoken English.
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“nor”, not “not”. My written English is struggling too.
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QC noting he did a lot of due diligence into his two post offices - Crossflatts and Cottinglry both in Bingley north east of Bradford.
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QC Did you draft your witness statement because it is in very clear English and it doesn’t come across like you are now?
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MS says he’s not too bad at reading English and goes on to give a response about the level of help he got doing his business plan.
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the judge is tolerating this so far, but it’s clear the PO QC is having difficulty making himself understood to MS. QC is using quite precise technical language which might be a struggle for someone whose English isn’t very good…
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… but by the same token it’s the sort of language you would expect someone taking on the role of Subpostmaster to understand. To give you an example MS doesn’t understand what “commercially naive” means.
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PO QC is taking MS through his application to become an SPMR before his interview. Noting how the correspondence from the PO makes it quite clear some of his contractual responsibilities and the nature of their business relationship.
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MS’s witness statement hasn’t been released to us yet, so we are groping in the dark to a large degree, but I suspect MS said in it he didn’t receive his Subpostmasters Contract (SPMC), because the QC is suggesting he did.
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QC says - let’s have a look at the letter sent to you. It references the SPMC - surely if you hadn’t received it you’d ask after it?
MS can’t remember - it was 12 years ago, he says.
QC - making point that he says he said in his WS he doesn’t remember studying…
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… a summary of his contract.
QC now is he saying he doesn’t remember receiving it? Is his memory getting better now he’s in the witness box.
MS says he didn’t say he didn’t receive it. He just can’t remember it.
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QC suggests he did receive the documents
MS says he liked the idea of running the post office and loved it until he was terminated in 2009.
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QC also says he must have known he was responsible for hiring his assistants.
MS is being really unclear.
QC asks about being interviewed for his job. How long did the interview last.
MS 1.5 hours
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He was interviewed by the PO’s Mr Howarth. There is a statement about this from Mr Howarth which is being referred to now.
QC It is a statement about things which would have been contained in your interview.
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QC He says he ran through the terms of his contract - do you agree?
Judge jumps in immediately and tells Mr Cavender that he wrong. Mr Howarth did NOT say he did x. Mr Howarth in his witness statement says he doesnt’ remember...
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… interviewing MS, but he says what he *would* have said in a typical interview. The judge points out this is not the first time Mr Cavdender has said what a PO employee says he would have done and turned it into an assertion that it happened.

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Asks him to ask it again with more precision.
QC asks if he remembers Mr Howarth going through the terms of his contract as he said he would normally.
MS says if Mr Howarth can’t remember, how can he?
Judge jumps in again pointing out MS’s memory isn’t contingent on Mr Howarths.

MS can’t remember.
QC goes into a long list of things and asks MS whether he remembers being asked or told about this.
MS says he can’t remember
QC says is it possible it happened.
MS says he can’t remember.
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After the long list, with some frustration, the QC asks:
“Well what can you remember?!”
MS remembers an example he gave of what he would do if someone came to the counter with a particular issue.
QC asks if he can remember anything he was told…
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MS can’t remember
QC says he is not really in a position to deny that Mr Howarth’s stating of what he would have said in the interview (but can’t confirm because he can’t remember) didn’t happen, because he too, can’t remember.

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MS says he can’t say what he can’t remember.
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We appear to be persevering...

We are on to the legal advice MS got or was advised to take. His WS says he was not advised to take legal advice.
MS says he can’t remember, but he didn’t take legal advice.
QC points out his WS says he was told he had got the ….
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… job at the end of this interview. Says this can’t be true. He would have been informed in the normal way.
MS says he was told if he was successful he was told he’d have to make some changes to the branch
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Instead of saying “correct”, when the PO QC make a statement Mohammad agrees with, he says “yes please”.

eg “Is that right?”
“Yes please.”
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We are taking a ten minute break. I am not sure the last hour will go down in legal history.

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I’ve just been handed MS’s witness statement. It’s 26 pages long. I’ll try to get the gist of it before we reconvene…
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Okay - we’re back. The gist of MS’s situation is that he took on two branches, he had a few problems in branch including customer fraud, but particularly with lottery-related stuff. He tried to get help from the PO.
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He was audited and found there was a problem to the tune of around £4.8K with his scratchcards in one of his branches. He was suspended. His other branch was audited… #postofficetrial

… and found to have a small surplus, but was told he was suspended from that branch because he was suspended from the other branch.
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He then lost his investment in the business.
He thinks he was badly trained and badly treated.
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Whilst I’ve been telling you this, the QC has been asking him about the due diligence he did on his contract and the terms of his engagement as SPMR. It goes back to the same point the PO QC was making to…
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… Alan Bates from the JFSA last week. That it is inconceivable that he didn’t have a copy of the SPMC because there are plenty of references to it in other PO documents he must have read.
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The QC’s argument being the same - it’s inconceivable he would go into business with the PO without having sight of the SPMC.
MS’s WS says he doesn’t remember receiving the contract.
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I think the point the PO is trying to make to the judge in this and Bates case (and to a lesser degree Pam Stubbs’ case), that all these three SPMR must have had and seen the SPMC because it’s too odd that they didn’t and yet didn’t raise it at the time.
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This is clearly important in some aspect of law. ie the Post Office may think it has a stronger defence if it can convince the judge every claimant must have had a full 144 page contract (including the infamous 12:12 clause), which by signing the shorter summary...

… of terms, they were subsequently bound to. It is a common complaint of aggrieved SMPRs that they never saw the full SPMC or were properly alerted to its existence before signing up as an SPMR.
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You can see how and why this GLO might take some time. There is x amount of trial time being expended on pushing back on whether an SPMR had seen or even knew about the existence of the full 144 page SPMC.
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Whatever the upshot of that, it then has to be decided whether or not the way the PO enforced the contract was unlawful. And presumably whether the SPMRs had seen their contract or not before signing it might have a particular bearing on the outcome.
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We are now on to the training MS got.
MS says his classroom training was useful.
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Although he notes none of the trainees had successfully got their Horizon terminals to balance by the end of the training.
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He says he got a trainer in the branch to help him for a Monday and Tuesday, but he was open late on Wednesday and Thu, but she had to go home those days and so he had to balance the lottery himself.
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He says by the end of their 5 days classroom training, none of the trainees were confident with Horizon. He got 6 days onsite training in total but again says the trainer would leave before he had balanced when they opened late.
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MS asked about the day he took over his PO and is being told the PO staff member who transferred the branch to him told him in detail about the docs he was being asked to sign.
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MS disagrees.
QC are you saying you weren’t told what the documents say?
MS says the PO staff came in, did the job and didn’t ask for his input. He said he trusted them and that they were on his side.
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QC asks if he had enough time to read the documents he was being asked to sign.
MS says no - PO staff got everything ready and prepared docs for him to sign, which he signed.
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QC asks if he could have asked for more time
MS says they were doing work for him, he let them do it
QC suggests that means he didn’t ask for more time
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QC shows him document he signed
MS acknowledges he did sign it
QC asked if he read it
MS suggests he did
QC points out he has signed a document referring to the terms of his contract the SPMC
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QC queries what he thought his terms of the engagement actually were
MS says he thought he was entering into a positive relationship with the PO and if anything negative came up he would ask for help.
QC says it’s not about pos or neg it’s about…
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… what he understood his contractual relationship with the PO to be.
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We move on.

Another document is brought up, which MS has signed.
QC did you read it?
MS not really
QC it says here you have read and understood it, are you saying that is untrue?
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MS says he was handed the document and told he must sign it and then he would be able to run his PO.
QC points out he wasn’t compelled to sign it. No one made him.
More language in the documents MS signed is being read out….
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The language specifically refers to aspects of his SPMC. They are highlighted in this document which MS agrees he signed.
MS cannot remember reading this clause. Oh it’s the 12:12 clause again.
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Sorry - we cannot see the docs which are being referred to in court until someone reads from them. The lawyers, judge and witnesses all have screens which we can’t see. But the bundle of docs being referred to here.
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… sound very much like the documents Mr Cavender was cross-examining Alan Bates on last week. The bundle of docs you get on having a branch transferred to you.
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Both Bates and Sabir say they got the documents on the day of their respective branch transfers, they signed them without really reading them and at least one of those documents has reference to the SPMC…
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And at least one of them quotes section 12:12 (which you can find at postofficetrial.com).
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After today is over I will try to put up a separate page on the postofficetrial.com which quotes section 12:12 of the SPMC in full and explains its import. it’s the one the PO quote in letters requesting/demanding money from SPMCs.
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We are still talking about documents Mr Sabir signed when he took over his Post Offices.

Oh. We’ve stopped. We’re now talking about branch profitability.
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MS found the Crossflatts business wasn’t as profitable as he hoped and tries to get out. He tenders his resignation from Crosflatts on 6 Nov 2008.
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[that last tweet supplemented by info from the WS I am reading - as is this] He is told his last provisional working day as Crossflatts SPMR is 6 Feb 2009, but says he’s told he isn’t allowed to leave until a replacement is found.
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A replacement is not found. Cottingley isn’t going very well either so on 7 July 2009, MS resigns from Cottingley. He is told he will leave the SPMR at Cottingley on 7 July 2009.
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Sorry - 10 Oct 2009.
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His plan is to go back to Crossflats and make a go of it. But he is audited and suspended on 10 August 2009 and terminated on 2 Oct 2009.
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We are now on to the day of MS’s suspension. His audit shows a deficit of around £5K. A serious matter? asks the PO QC
MS if it was a mistake, no. If it was fraud by me, yes.
MS explains what the situation was at the time with scratchcards and how he…
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… (presumably before his audit) tried to get some help from the helpline to sort issues he was having with scratchcards, but says no one helped him.
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When he was audited he had around £5K missing on the scratchcards, and £5K in the safe. He said he told the auditors this, and requested help in getting it sorted. #postofficetrial

Problem is he had been misdeclaring his stock in order to roll-over into the next day. Which is presumably why he was suspended.
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After his audit, the £5K cash was paid into the balance in order to make the discrepancy good.
QC why didn’t you put the money in before your audit?
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MS claims he had been asking for a while for help on how to do this.
QC suggests that if he did do this it would create a surplus, which would trigger an audit (infering that would be something he wouldnt’ want).
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QC How long did you let this go on for?
MS says he tried to ring the helpline for help
QC you are saying you had this problem for around 2 months, but you told the auditors it had been going on since 2007
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QC There was no need to falsify your accounts in this way - all you needed to do was put the cash in.
In fact that’s what happened after the audit. So why didn’t you do it?
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MS I didn’t falsify my accounts, it was a genuine mistake. I had found this fault. PO did not find this fault. I told them about it. No one rang me from PO and no one contacted me.
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QC says he is a professional man, worked as an assistant accountant, he knew the right way to do things, why didn’t he do it?
MS says he didn’t know what his deficit was
QC All you had to do was count how short your were on scratchcards.
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MS but the Horizon system is very complicated and I didn’t design it. we knew it was complicated
QC why didn’t you just count it - it was very simple. The auditors did that. Why didn’t you?
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QC really hammering him on this
Judge intervenes. As the judge understands the situation, MS's assistant was remming in the scratchcards rather than remming them out. Judge asks if he could independently ascertain the true number there should have been.
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MS says no he has to poll Horizon for this number and he was asking the helpline for information on how to do this so he could sort the situation out, but help came there none.
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QC But you would accept that you were signing off figures on your accounts which were incorrect. Why would you do that?
MS Because without doing that i couldn’t roll-over into the next trading period and open for business the next day.
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Mr Cavender finishes on the dot of 4.30pm - there is no re-examining of Mohammad Sabir by JFSA QC Patrick Green and the judge has nothing to add. We re-convene for day 4 of the trial tomorrow.
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Summary report of today’s proceedings will be up soonest on postofficetrial.com - which also has a paypal tip jar. If you’ve enjoyed reading today’s tweets, please consider a small donation.
Thanks!
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