Thread by @DrPetra

While incels are in the news again it’s important to remember
- concerns were raised about this over two decades ago
- Black women raised the alarm
- journalists were asked to address problems both documenting incels and their own poor sex and relationships writing, but avoided

Not just concerns about incels but worries about poor sex and relationships education, lack of parental supervision/awareness online, PUAs, g*mer**te, the far right and more, and all amalgamations of these.

Journalists may want to cover this now, because it’s “news” not recognising there’s a long history of growing problems and a legacy of many people who tried to raise concerns and in many cases were dismissed as killjoys and prudes (particularly in the early to mid noughties).

So many complex factors cause these issues that need attention and funding. It’s not a simple cause or simple fix. But it isn’t something that should be ignored. And it causes huge heartbreak and harm.

When I was sex and relationships editor at Men’s Health (starting back in 2002) we had an endless job, particularly online, addressing misinformation, entitled attitudes, mental distress, loneliness, toxic masculinity and the growing threat of M*As.

I got that role in part because of the work I’d been doing on men’s psychosexual wellbeing in the decade prior, and there we had already flagged up problem messaging particularly from dating experts who’d evolved from lad culture and morphed into P*As, M*As and more.

Academia wasn’t interested. Therapists weren’t. Nor were schools particularly. Or media. Sure there were moral panics all over the place, but little addressing what was driving and fuelling this misogyny, homo, bi and transphobia,
ableism and racism, and how it equally harmed men

Even trying to discuss it now you’re more likely to find people telling you that you’re wrong, that you hate men, various threats of harm, or ‘splaining all over the place. Or assuming it’s a new thing, ignoring the past work and the veterans and casualties there.

There have been decades of resistance to providing mental health and other advice and support for men, from other men, media, influencers and celebrities, and some organisations claiming to be for men but mostly driven by hating others.

All of which has also destabilised offering support to women, trans and NB people who are positioned as adversaries or taking from men. Trying to offer support while having to defend choices is exhausting. And again helps nobody. It wasn’t and still isn’t taken seriously.

Btw this has been something I know well, and there are reasons why I rarely discuss it on here anymore.
I’m not interested in any replies that assume I don’t know what I’m talking about and I’ll be ignoring that kind of patronising nonsense.

It also interests me that I post advice for all pretty much daily here and generally it’s not shared or interacted with. A thread like this which potentially invites a whole heap of aggravation people actively engage with. I think that tells us something, don’t you?

For all the understandable distress I’ve seen people sharing about the Plymouth case (because it is horrific) you could pass on the mundane education, health and care links regularly. If you do, great. Most folks don’t. Starting with daily care not amplifying drama is a good step

Also if you thought P*As weren’t built entirely on ableism you’d be wrong. It’s ableist to the core and, worse, often preys on disabled and neurodivergent men. While simultaneously allowing them to take the fall whenever an atrocity occurs. Hugely harmful in so many ways.

There’s also lessons here on who the media listens to,how short a memory it has, and everyday sexism around who is amplified in sex/relationships conversations and advice. A key reason we are not learning is young women were ignored and as they have aged they’re further sidelined

Which is why it’s so depressing to see people boldly claiming this hasn’t been studied or challenged or hardly anyone has worked on it. It’s airbrushing out decades of work and particularly efforts made decades ago by Black women and disabled folk.

It should come as no surprise that speaking out on incels,related problematic dating “advice”,the far right and the p*ck up industry comes with consequences. That can be threats or harms to people professionally or in relationships. It explains why many people go quiet on this

I was unsure whether to discuss this again given how badly it went for me. But I think we need to make a case for this not being recent and not a case of inertia, but something else entirely. I realised when writing this thread I started challenging this half my lifetime ago.

The most powerful memories I have from this time are the anxious and under-confident men who’d spend thousands to be given appalling and self-destructive dating advice and the neurodivergent men forced to learn eye contact as a key to getting a date. Just heartbreaking.

And these were people I was able to work with and, I hope, reassure and signpost somewhere better. I know I will have missed many and I encountered lots more who not only didn’t agree with me but actively wished me harm. They were dangerous and (still) massively underestimated

The one thing I’ve not mentioned so far on this thread is money. We forget how much of this is driven by it. Monetising prejudice and repackaging hate is lucrative. Threaten that and you are in trouble, with a willing army of men eager to enforce the bidding of their guides.

Anyway I shall probably delete this thread soon because, safety. But for now please feel free to copy it and if you have any questions I’m happy to answer them if I am able.

Something else I remembered from working as an advice columnist on a men's magazine is the endless criticism for offering men support and signposting them to care. Either from M*As or those who considered working with men a betrayal of women.

And also how offering advice to men was seen as a joke. How I was constantly asked to make advice and myself sexy when I was dealing with men experiencing distressing problems (past or current abuse,relationship violence,drug and alcohol use,workplace bullying, bereavement, loss)

As mentioned upthread this is complex and requires a variety of approaches, but we're never going to get anywhere if we don't offer diverse advice, support and information to men. At the same time we hold men responsible for the harms they cause themselves and others.

It's a myth that men don't want to ask for help and cannot talk about their problems. It is a fact there are limited places to do this and a lot of opposition for help seeking. The void where care could be provided by and for men are filled with abusers, chancers, and predators.

And no matter how we talk about it, about what's gone on in the past, what needs to happen now, how men are a danger and how they also need advice and care. Women and children keep being killed by men. Our focus on victims and survivors of men's violence must remain the priority.

May be of interest in relation to the thread above, another historic perspective on this issue fashionmagazine.com/flare/mra-at-u…

Since writing this thread yesterday I've had so many journalists getting in touch asking me to provide 'analysis' of the #Plymouth shooter and other direct comments on this person. This is unethical and wrong and I won't do it. Here's a reminder of why

https://twitter.com/DrPetra/status/1426920852717723654?s=20