Thread by @mhbx

@RKBower1 Not even close. I am not gleeful. Profoundly sad. Not only at the incident(s), these and others before, and the ones to come, but recognize that the president is part of the problem. He is not the only part, but a significant part.

The issue of gun control that you focus

@RKBower1 2/ on, as being the foundation of liberty, is an axiomatic difference between us. You seem to think guns are the means of liberty/freedom. I think of them as a function of power that needs to be restrained, focused, and used in the service of the society.

You seem to not

@RKBower1 3/ want to address the question of the ongoing slaughter of kids and others as the collateral damage of the gun culture.
Is that really the price of freedom now?
It used to be something else.

@RKBower1 4/ It may be our differences are expressed in what we appeal to as the predicate of freedom.

You are making a strong case for guns, to protect us from the gov, and to assert power over those who would 'take our liberty'. By which, it seems, you include or outright mean

@RKBower1 5/ immigrants, and probably "liberals" [ whatever that actually means. To you it seems to mean, anyone who doesn’t believe like I do. A common enough tribal division, but useless for a society/country to thrive within].

You want guns, & think having them protects you against

@RKBower1 6/ any assault of the government on your rights & liberties.

I say that is laughable, not as derision, as you elsewhere portrayed it, but as impossibly naive.

Anyway more to say along those lines, but onto the point,

You want guns and whatever subsequent violence occurs

@RKBower1 7/ protecting 'your liberty' is the cost of freedom.

I say if/when you get to this point the freedom has already been breached and there is no liberty any more. A wild west of the power residing in effectively what are "war lords".
The government of, for & by the people long

@RKBower1 8/ gone. And maybe it is. There certainly is astonishing corruption at many levels across party lines. Still there is a framework within which such things can be fought. Bring violence into it, and there is no more society. The breakdown is complete.

@RKBower1 9/ I reject your facile "you are not an american", and "you are gleeful" accusations. Completely. I understand the POV from which you make them. You are completely in error to level them.

Much more to be said, that needs to be said to work out the map of this territory.

@RKBower1 10/ perhaps I 'll write some essays based on our discussions.

In the meantime, I'll try to summarize the point/counterpoint thusly:

You seem to want to appeal to the 2A (however ahistorical the current interpretation is) guns and violence. I appeal to the 1A, & think

@RKBower1 11/ I appeal to the 1A and think ideas, values, principles, and the working out of differences in the context of good will and general desire for the common weal is central.

We need guns & force sometimes. But not all the time. And not foundational to everything. There is a

@RKBower1 12/ there is a reason why there is a First Amendment, and then a Second. Both are necessary...But the foundation of ideas, goals, vision & hope as expressed in the 'freedom of expression' is primary.

Else, just what liberties & freedoms are your guns actually protecting?