#DisclosuresTribunal Tribunal has resumed and O'Higgins, for the gardai, has resumed asking Supt Dave Taylor questions. Picking up from yesterday, he's asking about a meeting btw Taylor and Callinan in Callinan's house after his arrest in May 2015
#DisclosuresTribunal It's not clear when this meeting took place but it was after his arrest. O'Higgins has already said there were two other meetings in June and Oct 2014 in which, according to Callinan, Taylor was unhappy with his transfer to Traffic (happened in June '14)
#DisclosuresTribunal O'Higgins says it's Callinan's evidence that Taylor (during this third meeting after arrest) blamed NOS for his arrest and told Callinan he "would bring her down because of what she had done" to him. Taylor denies this
#DisclosuresTribunal Taylor claims NOS and Callinan were close so he would never say such a thing to Callinan
#DisclosuresTribunal O'H: These visits post Callinan's retirement - June 2014, Oct 2014 and after arrest May 2015, what were they about? T: I had great respect for Comm Callinan so I hed him in high esteem. OH: So they were to see how he was keeping? Taylor: Yes
#DisclosuresTribunal OH: It was all about you. You were doing the venting, speaking out...you were giving out about all things personal to you...you were hopeful he would do something for you.
#DisclosuresTribunal Taylor disagrees. OH: You were disappointed he couldn't help and told you to knuckle down. Taylor: I didn't ask him for help.
#DisclosuresTribunal OH says it's Noirin O'Sullivan's evidence that she had no phone call with Taylor re: Paul Williams' visit to Ms D house. Taylor maintains she called him after he texted her about the visit.
#DisclosuresTribunal OH points out Michelle Taylor's evidence yesterday when she said it was her understanding that the Clerkin investigation was only about the Roma children/Tallaght incident.
#DisclosuresTribunal OH asks why he didn't tell her about all the details of the investigation (Tribunal has been told Clerkin widened investigation into Roma children matter to just Taylor after discovering texts Taylor was sending to journalists after he was put out of GPO)
#DisclosuresTribunal OH suggests he undersold matters to his wife. Taylor maintains that it was possibly the way the question that was put to Ms Taylor but that she was aware of the full true picture re: Clerkin investigation
#DisclosuresTribunal OH also recalls Ms Taylor's evidence in which she said - at meeting btw McCabe and Taylor on Sept 20 2016 - that Taylor said he felt NOS was anxious to get a change on him.
#DIsclosuresTribunal OH puts it to Taylor that he was telling people in Sept/Oct 2016 that he was being investigated on "trumped up charges" and was being "unjustly pursued". Taylor maintains he never said this.
#DisclosuresTribunal OH now going to journalist Mick Clifford's two meetings with T in summer of 2016. OH points out it will be Clifford's evidence , on that first meeting, T said the crim investigation into him was motivated by NOS and she was anxious to get his phones
#DisclosuresTribunal OH now saying it's Clifford's evidence that, also during this meeting, T told Clifford that the reason NOS wanted his phones was to link NOS to the alleged smear campaign. Taylor disagrees.
#DisclosuresTribunal Charleton steps in to clarify the point being put is that what he told Clifford was that NOS wanted to get the phones and computer seized in order to get them wiped so there'd be no evidence of her being linked to the campaign. Taylor: I don't accept that.
#DisclosuresTribunal Now OH raises Ms Taylor's evidence about Taylor's meetings with Clifford (at which she was present) in June of July 2016 and that Ms Taylor said Dave Taylor did tell Clifford there was a campaign and that he was part of the campaign.
#DisclosuresTribunal OH: Your wife and Mick Clifford are clear that you relayed the smear campaign and your role in it to the journalist prior to the meeting with McCabe (which was Sept 2016). Taylor is not accepting this.
#DisclosuresTribunal OH now going through timeline of when he told people about the smear campaign. First was his wife Michelle (Taylor agrees but there's no date for this). OH suggests Clifford was second. Taylor disagrees and says it was the AGS chaplain Fr Joe Kennedy
#DisclosuresTribunal OH says meetings with Clifford pre-dated meeting priest. T says it's always been his evidence he told his wife, then priest...OH says sequence was: wife, Clifford, priest, McCabe, protected disclosure, politicians. OH points out he was doing MA in Pol Comms
#DisclosuresTribunal OH raising the two statements from Fianna Fail TD John McGuinness. In first statement McG said after PAC meeting Jan 23, 2014 Callinan was with NOS and Taylor when Callinan said to him "this man [McCabe] fiddles with children, this is outrageous"
#DisclosuresTribunal Taylor never mentioned hearing this in his protected disclosure of Sept 2016.
#DIsclosuresTribunal In his second statement (March 28, 2018) John McGuinness told how Callinan was telling a story of ex-Garda John Wilson and a horse and then said "...and the other fella fiddles with kids..and that is the type of f**king head bangers I'm dealing with..."
#DIsclosuresTirbunal OH asks Taylor if he heard Callinan tell the horse story or "f**king headbangers" line, Taylor says he didn't. Taylor: I've never heard Commissioner Callinan use bad language in his vocabulary
#DisclosuresTribunal Taylor does maintain he heard the "fiddles with kids" comment
#DisclosuresTribunal Should the "f**king head bangers" directly following the "fiddles with kids" comment - according to John McGuinness. Taylor maintains he only heard the "fiddles with kids" comment.
#DisclosuresTribunal Taylor says the day/evening was taken up with the 'disgusting' remark made by Callinan. OH: The 'disgusting' comment is League Division 2 compared to this [kiddie fiddler comment]
#DisclosuresTribunal OH claims there was no mention of "kiddie fiddler" comment until tribunal was set up. OH says T didn't put it in his protected disclosure (T said PD wasn't a complete doc). OH puts it to him he didn't tell McCabe (T says he put it in his statement to trib)
#DisclosuresTribunal OH puts to Taylor there's a reason why his account is so vague and lacking in specifics. OH suggests there's a reason there are no texts or documents substantiating his account and reason why he's watered down his account and removed texts from the equation
#DisclosuresTribunal OH suggests the reason for above is the fear of being directly caught out. OH: I'm suggesting you've abandoned much of what you've told McCabe, McGuinness, Clifford, Wallace and Daly and possible others, again for fear that your account would be exposed
#DisclosuresTribunal OH continues: There's not a single person to support your claim of an orchestrated campaign. You were in a predicament, world closing in on you, pressures at home, finances in disarray, you had a grievance that you were unfairly targeted.
#DisclosuresTribunal OH continues: I'm suggesting you became fixated on NOS and her husband and came up with a plan to exact your revenge...for what was done to you..You came up with a plan to shield yourself from the criminal and discplinary procedures you were facing..
#DisclosuresTribunal OH continues: What better way to defend and protect yourself than paint yourself as a victim and align yourself with Maurice McCabe..
As part of this plan, you attempted to sell to Maurice McCabe what were a load of lies.
As part of this plan, you attempted to sell to Maurice McCabe what were a load of lies.
#DisclosuresTribunal OH: I'm suggesting you hawked around those lies to journalists and politicans, whoever would listen to you in Sept/Oct 2016 before and after you made your protected disclosure.
#DIsclosuresTribunal OH: And purpose of this was to undermine NOS and as part of that you had to attack Martin Callinan and you decided to extend it out to Andew McLIndon as well. Taylor rejects all of this.
#DisclosuresTribunal OH finishes his questioning of Taylor by pointing out this is the Disclosures Tribunal and says Sgt Maurice McCabe made his protected disclosures based on what Taylor told him and "it's not the truth". Taylor disagrees.
#DisclosuresTribunal Tara Burns BL, for Taylor, now going through his evidence.
#DisclosuresTribunal Burns asking about his meeting with AGS chaplain Fr Joe Kennedy. Taylor said he sought forgiveness from him and Fr K blessed him. Taylor says they met for about half an hours in August 2016, at his home.
#DisclosuresTribunal Burns now asking about his wife's contact with McCabe and then their eventual meeting with McCabe. Taylor said he didn't want to meet him and didn't think he could look him in the eye.
#DisclosuresTribunal Burns goes to day they met. Asked why his position changed, Taylor said because of what happened the night before (a family trauma). Burns: Were you lying to Sgt McCabe? Taylor: No.
#DisclosuresTribunal Burns goes to day of Martin Callinan's resignation. Taylor says, on that day, he had contact with Paul Reynolds because Callinan asked him to get a letter out and release it to Reynolds. This was a letter Callinan had written to DOJ about Bandon phone tapes.
#DisclosuresTribunal More about this letter broadsheet.ie/2015/09/02/fen…
#DisclosuresTribunal Taylor claims Martin Callinan said to Taylor "get it out to Paul straight away". Judge Charleton asks what the significance of this is. Burns explains it's an example of contact with a journalist not involving the Garda Press Office.
#DisclosuresTribunal Lengthy exchanges between Judge and Michael Kealy, representing Debbie McCann. He has declined to ask any questions of Supt Taylor (will come back to this)
#DisclosuresTribunal Counsel for Gemma O'Doherty asking Taylor about events after Ms O'Doherty called to his home (he was out of the country) to verify his address re: pen points wiped story.
#DisclosuresTribunal Taylor said he got a number for INM's Michael Denieffe and they arranged to meet in Harcourt Square. Asst CommJohn Twomey there too
#DisclosuresTribunal Taylor said another INM colleague was at the meeting. O'Doherty's counsel asks if this was Irish Independent journalist Tom Brady? Taylor says no, it was a female colleague and he doesn't know her name
#DisclosuresTribunal Tribunal hears that Simon McAleese (for Eavan Murray and John Mooney [News International] has declined opportunity to cross-examine Supt Taylor.
#DisclosuresTribunal Diarmaid McGuinness SC, for tribunal, going back to Taylor's list of journalists - when it was made/submitted and how the original list didn't include journalists Irish Sun's Eavan Murray and IMOS's Debbie McCann until trib went to him after D family evidence
#DIsclosuresTribunal Taylor repeats (said several times already) he added them to list an the earliest opportunity.
#DisclosuresTribunal McGuinness goes to Mick Wallace's statement and asks about MW claim that T said the Clerkin investigation was related to "trumped up charges" against him in order to get his phones. Taylor denies saying this to Mick Wallace.
#DisclosuresTribunal hears that after it became public knowledge that it was Taylor's case that he didn't send derogatory texts about McCabe to media - this became public knowledge wen Taylor's counsel cross-examined Sgt McCabe - Mick Wallace called Taylor
#DisclosuresTribunal Wallace gave statement to tribunal saying effectively that he rang T and asked him did he not tell Clare [DAly] and I that he sent derogatory texts about Maurice to the media. He said no. He said he was sending texts in relation to things happening..
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd]...or being said in the media about Maurice and that he was sending these onto Callinanl and NOS and that she often replied 'perfect'. I asked was he not sending derogatory texts about Maurice to the journalists and he said no.
#DisclosuresTribunal McGuinness, SC for tribunal, has asked Taylor again about Paul William's articles about Ms D of April/May 2014. Taylor maintains he had never seen PW's articles
#DisclosuresTribunal [NOTE: Mr Williams’ articles were published on April 12, 15, 16 and May 3, 2014]. Tribunal has seen phone records which show Taylor called Paul Williams twice on April 10 (2 mins 12 seconds) and then called Paul Williams twice on April 12, 2014
#DisclosuresTribunal Tribunal sees calls were at 5.25pm (.03 secs) and at 5.45pm ( 0.4 secs) which suggests he didn't get through. But T is asked if he would have called PW to congratulate him on the arts. T repeats he didn't see the arts - even though he was in GPO at the time.
#DisclosuresTribunal McGuinness has asked Taylor if he can recall Ms D being discussed at pre-PAC meetings (in Dec/Jan 2014) [Tribunal has seen/heard evidence that she was]. Taylor has no recollection of this.
#DisclosuresTribunal Heard yesterday Taylor said that when his first Garda phone was seized in December 2014, the first people (and sequence of contacts) he contacted were: his wife, the AGSI President and General Secretary of AGSI and then his solicitor.
#DisclosuresTribunal Tribunal sees phone records show on Dec 18, 2014 (day phone seized) btw 5.53pm and 8.13pm Taylor called three jours (2 names redacted). He called a jour first at 5.53. Then he called a 2nd jour twice. Then he called Eavan Murray twice (2nd call at 8.13pm)
#DisclosuresTribunal Tribunal has already heard Supt Taylor say "yes" when asked by tribunal counsel "You're not contesting that you did make all of those communications to journalists outlined in the [Clerkin] report".
#DisclosuresTribunal McGuinness puts it to Taylor that any alleged claim that he was a victim by way of Clerkin investigation then is false. Taylor accepts this.
#DisclosuresTribunal Taylor is asked if he wants to add anyone to his list of neg briefed journalists. Taylor says no.
#DisclosuresTribunal McG has asked T if he has any evidence to suggest NOS appointed her husband to investigate him for any reason. T says no but repeats his concern about a potential conflict of interest as she removed him from GPO and then her husband was appointed to invest.
#DisclosuresTribunal McG states CS Clerkin was appointed by Ass Comm (Twomey) to look into Roma matter in Aug 2014 and he chose NOS husband and, at that time, there was no suspicion of Taylor being involved
#DisclosuresTribunal Taylor accepts that there was no suspicion of him at that time. McGuinness said he was then interivewed in Nov 2014 and suspicion only fell on him after analysis of his phone which was seized in Dec 2014 (this was issued in Sept 2014) ...
#DisclosuresTribunal ...and 2800 communications were found on his phone btw him and journalists (btw Sept and Dec '14) despite him being in Traffic since June 2014. Taylor accepts this.
#DisclosuresTribunal McG: So nobody could have foresight or guile to appoint someone to an investigation in that process with view to doing you down? Taylor: That's correct
#DisclosuresTribunal Taylor now accepts Clerkin investigation - which recommended charges against Supt Taylor - was right. "I accept my culpability." Judge suggests he broke the Garda code every day for a year.
#DisclosuresTribunal Taylor: I regret that every day. NOTE: DPP ruled no prosecution after Clerkin investigation
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge: Were there in fact any texts that were worth destroying in the sense of implicating Martin Callinan or Noirin O'Sullivan in any kind of plot against McCabe? Taylor: No.
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge earlier put to Taylor: You've had a problem with NOS? What was the problem? Taylor: I was removed from the press office. Judge: You could have been sent to Donegal or Westmeath...not saying these aren't wonderful places but...
#DisclosuresTribunal T: I was removed from a job I felt I was doing a good job. T: "As I said it was a public move from a high-profile position to a less profile position" Judge: What does that matter? Taylor: "Within the Garda family...that's clearly seen as a move sideways"
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge: We've looked at all the newspapers and apart from Paul Williams, there's nothing, not a sniff that suggest Maurice McCabe was embittered. Charleton asks if Callinan ever came back to him and said 'this isn't working'.
#DisclosuresTribunal Taylor: He [Callinan] was just very concerned that media were still writing postiively about McCabe. Judge: But did he ever say, look, I may have a go myself, you're clearly not doing the job you're told to do
#DisclosuresTribunal Taylor said Callinan was concerned all the time that this story [McCabe/penalty points] wasn't going away and he was expressing that to me. Judge: But there was no plan B? Taylor: No.
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge asked Taylor if he's certain there's nothing in his diaries that can assist the tribunal. Taylor says no there's nothing. Judge asks if the tribunal can have a look? Taylor agrees to this and says they're with his solicitor.
#DisclosuresTribunal Michael Kealy, for Debbie McCann of IMOS, earlier had a lengthy exchange with Judge. Judge put to MK that McCann has been centrally involved in evidence given to date re: visit to Ms D either potentially at behest/assistance of Taylor who has waived privilege
#DisclosuresTribunal MK referred to what another counsel for journalists (claiming jour privilege) has already said to the tribunal. Judge asks MK if McCann says she has the privilege herself. MK: I think at some stage submission will be given in regards to that
#DisclosuresTribunal MK says Taylor's waiver doesn't release McCann from her obligations as a journalist. Judge puts to MK that he's ad odds with the European Court of Human Rights. Judge: I've read the ECHR decision and it says 'it is a factor'...you are saying 'it's THE factor'
#DisclosuresTribunal MK: I'm saying it's an important factor - 1) re: the ethics my client has as a journalist and 2) the legal position (upon which MK says judge can make a finding). Re: Ethics, MK said a source self-identifying themselves doesn't release jour from privilege.
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge indicates he's bound by law and not ethics. MK says there's been detailed corr between hims and tribunal and offers to read it. Judge: This is a public tribunal. It's fine to write, thank you, but if things are 2 be said, they ought to be said in public
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge: This is an evidence-based process. Says witness (Taylor) has spoken extensively re: McCann. And evidence from CS Clerkin related to contacts btw Taylor and McCann. Judge then said he's inviting MK to challenge/contradict the evidence given
#DisclosuresTribunal MK declines. MK ultimately says his client is unable to put questions to Taylor without breaking privilege and that's the reason for declining the invitation.
