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#DisclosuresTribunal Conor Lally, of Irish Times, about to resume giving evidence.
#DisclosuresTribunal John Ferry, for Supt Dave Taylor, asking questions. Ferry recalling how Lally heard about Ms D allegation in 2010/2011, that it had been investigated and that the gardai recommended to the DPP that there be no prosecution and there was no prosecution
#DisclosuresTribunal Ferry recalls that Lally says he can't recall who told him. Ferry suggests the info is very specific. Lally says it happened a long time ago but he may have asked a lot of questions - which might explain the level of knowledge
#DisclosuresTribunal Ferry asks if it was an official source. Lally says it may have been someone within criminal justice system or someone writing about it...but he cant recall. Says it was a long time ago and McCabe wasn't the well-known person that he is now.
#DisclosuresTribunal F: When you say he wasn't a well-known figure at the time, wasn't it a startling allegation to hear - about a member of AGS of any rank and the allegation of its type. Were you aware it related to a female minor? Lally says he's not sure he knew that detail
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally says in his job he'd hear things about ppl all the time, re: gardai & other ppl. He says: Business we're in, you're thinking about stories all the time, processing all time, 'is this a story?'... if you don't think there's a story, u forget it & move on
#DisclosuresTribunal Ferry recalls Lally saying this yesterday...
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally says he's telling the tribunal he hadn't formed the view this was why McCabe had fallen out with AGS but it was view of person who told him about Ms D - that McCabe had had a difficult time in work and he'd fallen out with AGS.
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally says: I didn't know anything about it ...I had no view. Lally adds later: "I still don't know to be honest".
#DisclosuresTribuanl Lally said about person who told him about Ms D that, rather than someone from Garda management trying to convince him that the allegations were true, it cropped up as an explainer rather than someone trying to malign Sgt McCabe
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally repeats that he did NOT have the view the person put to him "I had no opinion on it". Says it was view of the person who told him that McCabe had fallen out with guards and Ms D matter may have been a reason
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally was writing about penalty points in 2013/2014..he says McCabe's profile was increasing in 12 months prior to the PAC meeting (about pen points) in Jan 2014 and it resurfaced then.
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally says that the person who told him was "genuine" and wasn't spreading venom or trying to convince Lally of his view. Lally says people give him views all the time and they don't find their way into his journalism
#DisclosuresTribunal Ferry puts to Lally the view of this person may have been "intended to plant a seed in your mind". Ferry says first part of the statement (that there was an allegation) was factually correct but the second part (that he'd fallen out with AGS) was "added in".
#DisclosuresTribunal Ferry suggests the person gave him an 'agenda'. Lally categorically rejects this and says he doesn't believe he was told this in any way to turn against Sgt McCabe or to suggest he had to be just cropped up.
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally (repeating what he said to tribunal yesterday) - it was "dead" information [given the unequivocal DPP directions].
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge steps to point out that 2010/2011 was before Taylor was in the press office, so couldn't be considered a negative briefing in so much as the tribunal is investigating. Ferry acknowledges that but says Lally has told it resurfaced in 2014.
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge says again he's not sure how this relay of information in 2010/2011 is related to Taylor. Ferry points out Lally has said the person told him McCabe had fallen out with AGS. Lally: Nobody ever told me Sgt McCabe was driven by revenge
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally says the person who told him about Ms D allegation didn't say McCabe was blowing the whistle out of revenge. Lally says he's a feeling that he probed the person and asked lot of questions - such as 'is there an issue here?' and then after lots of qs...
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd]...that the person then said 'well actually there is an allegation and he appears to have fallen out with AGS'. Lally says he thinks the person said McCabe had fallen out with local garda management.
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd] Lally says he doesn't even think phrase 'fallen out with' was even used. Lally repeats that he was pressing the person 'is there any fracture here?'..after he pressed him, he said there was an issue (Ms D). Lally repeats he thinks he asked lots of qs
#DisclosuresTribunal Ferry is asking Lally about Supt Taylor's claim that Lally pushed back when he tried to tell him that Sgt McCabe didn't co-operate with Asst Comm John O'Mahoney's investigation into penalty points (which wasn't true). Taylor claims Lally didn't believe him
#DisclosuresTribunal [NOTE: The idea that McCabe didn't cooperate with JOM investigation was part of alleged smear campaign - according to Supt Taylor]. Lally says he doesn't want to get into conversations because of journalistic privilege/protection of sources.
#DisclosuresTribunal [NOTE: JOM on Wednesday told the tribunal that the claims McCabe "didn't co-operate" weren't true - it was first time he said this publicly. Gerald Kean said this on marian Show in Jan 2014 after speaking with ex-Commissioner Martin Callinan]
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally: I don't recognise what he's [Taylor] saying...I don't recollect the events as he's ..I don't remember any conversation with him about that issue and I don't think that conversation took place.
#DisclosuresTribunal Taylor has already told the tribunal that this alleged conversation took place over the phone. Lally doesn't believe this conversation took place.
#DisclosuresTribunal Ferry recalls how Taylor claims he dropped in things about McCabe during conversations with journalists. Lally, raising his hand, says: 'The nature of what you've just outlined there...that never occurred between me and any member of An Garda Siochana. Ever."
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally refers back to what he was told in 2010/2011. Lally:
Let me vey very clear - he relayed it to me after I repeatedly asked qusetions..this was not part of any campaign to do down Maurice McCabe. It just wasn't.
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd]..Lally: Idea I was told this to suggest McC was acting in revenge...or that he was a planting of a seed in my head which would grow years later - is nonsense. Person wasn't a guard, wasn't pro-Garda, what you're suggesitng is fantasy, complete fantasy
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally says alleged interaction with Taylor is "total fantasy". Lally: He has no evidence to back it up...he can't say where this happened, where did he talk to me? This just didn't happen, it's that simple
#DisclosuresTribunal Ferry puts to Lally he can't recall who told him about Ms D in 2010/2011, he can't recall who the journalists were that he spoke to when matter resurfaced later in 2014 and he can't recall conversation with Taylor about JOM investigation
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally replies this whole tribunal is based on a protected disclosure detailing claims by Taylor and he (Taylor) can't recall any details.
#DisclosuresTribunal After some back and forth between Lally and Ferry, Judge steps in to stay that the point is Taylor has said what he's said under oath. Lally: Right.
#DisclosuresTribunal Lally: As I have said I didn't have that kind of relationship with Taylor. If he had said anything to me he'd have got the view I was independent person. We just didn't have that relationship. Says if he had that convo with Taylor (as alleged) he'd recall it
#DisclosuresTribunal Debbie McCann, of the Irish Mail on Sunday, is now giving evidence. She's outlined her career to date. Patrick Marrinan SC, for tribunal, going through docs sent from tribunal to her/Mail after tribunal set up.
#DisclosuresTribunal Sees first letter from Mail solicitor in March 2017 to tribunal (on behalf of McCann, Alison O'Reilly, Jennifer Bray and Ali Bracken)
#DisclosuresTribunal The letter said: "None of open communications that the journalists in question had with Det Supt Taylor in relation to matters falling within the terms of reference of the tribunal"
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan asks McCann if she discussed this with Sebastian Hamilton, Jennifer Bray, Alison O'Reilly, Ali Bracken, Conor O'Donnell - McCann says No to each.
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan now goes to another letter from tribunal to McCann in which it outlines Taylor's/NOS's/Callinan's privilege waiver (McCann has already outlined the importance of privilege/protection of sources for her going forward as a journalist).
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan shows McCann's response to the next letter - in which McCann refused to confirm her phone number to tribunal. McCann: I didn't want to give rise to any investigation into who my sources are. Marrinan: We weren't interested in any of your sources?
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan puts to McCann she gave her card (with number) to Ms D. McCann corrects him and says it was Mrs D. Marrinan says Taylor, etc/other people...had her number. McCann repeats she didn't want to give rise to any investigation into her sources/phone
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann says she's in a difficult position, trying to balance protection of sources/privilege while helping the tribunal. McCann says she's tried to assist the tribunal as best as she can.
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann: I had refused to hand over my phone number...then I was asked questions about texts, and I answered those questions..I didn't blankedly refuse.
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan now going through the list of questions that all the journalists were issued when tribunal was set up. Tribunal hears she didn't answer the questions but gave a supplemental statement
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan reads out question which asks if she's aware of any evidence or attempt by Call/NOS or any senior member of AGS discrediting McCabe by reference of an allegation of criminal misconduct against him.
#DisclosuresTribuanl McCann says she has no evidence of any orchestrated campaign against McCabe. Marrinan explains that's not the question he's asked. Repeats the question. McCann: I wasn't briefed negatively by any member of AGS in relation to Sgt McCabe.
#DisclosuresTribunal Michael Kealey, solicitor for Mail, raises McCann statement. In it she said: "I wasn't involved in any orchestrated campaign to malign Sgt McCabe. I have no evidence of any orchestrated campaign to malign St McCabe"
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan points out in response to a question: Asked if I have any info or evidence about an orchestrated campaign directed by senior AGS, McCann answered: I am unable to answer this question (due privilege/protection of sources)
#DisclosuresTribunal [NOTE: the reason Kealey drew attention to McCann's statement was to say Marrinan was incorrect in saying that McCann had given fresh evidence in what she was saying.]
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge says Kealey's objection is "completely wrong". Judge says this is the first time that he has heard that McCann is saying NO guard ever briefed her negatively about McCabe and first time she's says NO senior member of AGS maligned McCabe to her
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan: You told the tribunal investigators that in/or around Feb 2014 that you had heard mumurings and you refer in your statement you say 'we heard murmurings', can you tell the chair about that?
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann: I'm not sure for how long, but certainly there were murmurings going around that there was something in relation to Sgt McCabe in his past...I didn't pay too much heed to it at that point...Marrinan: What were the murmurings specifically?
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann: I can't remember exactly...I think it was that there was an allegation there - I didn't know what had happened..I didn't know any of the details..just that there had been an allegation from the past.
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan: Did you contact Supt Dave Tayor? McCann: I don't feel I can answer that for source protection reasons. But again, no member of An Garda Siochana ever maligned Sgt McCabe to me
#DisclosuresTribunal M: Would it not have been legitimate to contact him as he was the Garda Press Officer - to find out about whether or not there was something in McCabe's past of a criminal naure? Surely it would be legitimate
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann: You wouldn't really expect GPO to confirm something like that..I have my own sources. Judge steps in: I have no interest in inquiring into any sources you have - only interested in Taylor/NOS and Callinan
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge explains that Marrinan is asking specifically about Taylor. Marrinan asks: Did you think of contacting Taylor about it? McCann: I don't know if I can answer that question
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan asks: Were the murmuings from Taylor? McCann: I don't feel I can answer that question [McCann is citing source protection/privilege for this stance]
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge says McCann has said "clearly" she has no evidence of any campaign and she was never briefed negatively by any guard. Judge says he can't see problem with answering quest: did she ask DT about it? Judge tells McCann "You can't have your cake and eat it"
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge puts to McCann: Did you say 'look, David, is there anything to this? I need to know.' If indeed your answer is correct - you were never briefed neg - I have to reach the conclusion that Taylor said 'no, he's a really nice man'
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd] '..and that the DPP ruled against prosecution' Judge: I have to assume that's the conversation you had. I don't see where source protection comes into it.
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan puts to McCann reason he's asking her this is she went up to D house to investigate an issue concerning a sexual allegation. McCann: I would have made inquiries myself to establish what the allegation was and whether there was any substance to it.
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan repeats: Again we're not inquiring into your sources. What was the level of information you got? McCann: I understood an allegation had been made, it was of a historic nature, allegation was inappropriate touching, DPP ruled not to prosecute.
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan: And you had the name (of Ms D)? McCann: I did. I had the names and inquired myself then as to the address. I got it [address] myself as opposed to sources.
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan: Did you also know it concerned the daughter of a garda colleague [of Sgt McCabe's]? McCann: I'm pretty sure I did know that..
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan: And your ran it by your [news] editor? McCann: Yes. Marrinan: This is Robert Cox? McCann: Yes. Marrinan: And you brought that info to the table that you had? McCann: I did. I suggested we look at the allegation in more detail..
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd] McCann: I told him I had got more specific information in relation to it and, at that point, he told me to travel up and knock on her door. Marrinan: Did you share that with Alison O'Reilly? McC: Possibly, I don't believe so, it happened very quickly
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann says she travelled up to D house morning after she spoke to Cox about Ms D.
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan: Taylor says you phoned him before you went up to speak to Ms D. Is that right? McCann: Again there were a variety of sources on this matter and I don't feel comfortable answering that question. Marrinan: I'm not asking you to ID sources
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan: Taylor is asserting you phoned him before you went up. I can't understand why you have a difficulty. McCann: I really wish I could help you further. McCann cites her responsibilites as a journ re: sources but also says she wants to assist tribunal.
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan again says Taylor says McCann phoned him before she went up to Ms D. Marrinan says Taylor is not saying he was the source of any info. "I'm not suggesting he was source of any info..I'm just asking you to confirm if you called him before going to Ds
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann tells tribunal she would have been in conversation with Taylor (as he was head of GPO) on a weekly basis...she says she can't say whether this was discussed or not. Repeats she's not comfortable with the question.
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan: Would it be usual to ring him - saying 'I'm going up to D house'? McCann says she didn't call Taylor to tell him every detail of her day-to-day job. McCann repeats: I don't feel I can help you on this question. She again cites source protection.
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge steps in to say that, because of her answers, the inference could be taken that Taylor MIGHT be McCann's source.
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge says there's another thing that has occurred to him and he feels it's necessary to say it to McCann. He says: The statement you made to the tribunal was one which carries certain consequences if not correct
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge points out an oath is taken. He says one has to tell what happened, the actual truth, not forms of words, not "orchestrated" or whatever. The obligation here is to actually tell the truth. And it applies to everyone.
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge says he's not giving McCann this long lecture to annoy her or anyone else but, he says, it's the patriotic duty of those coming before the tribunal to tell the truth
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann tells the judge that she takes that very seriously. "I am telling you I know of no evidence of any smear campaign against Sgt McCabe...I sought out this information."
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge says: I think I need to tell you how serious this matter is...says appalling things have been said about two former Garda Commissioners. Says purpose of the tribunal is to find out what happened.
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge says in the event McCann DID tell Taylor she was going up to D house, and if he said McCabe's a 'decent, honourable man'...I NEED to know that. It's about answering the questions. You might like to think about that. [Judge then breaks for lunch]
#DisclosuresTribunal hearing has resumed. Marrinan draws up Alison O'Reilly's statement to the tribunal See some of it which has been previously read out here:…
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan reads out bit in which AOR alleges McCann told her that McCabe, the whistleblower who lifted the lid on the penalty points scandal, was a "child abuser" . Asked if she said this, McCann says "absolutely not"
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann said at time she had heard an allegation but it's a big step to go from that to calling someone a "child abuser". She categorically says she didn't say that.
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann also denies saying to AOR that there had been an allegation made against McCabe and that there was a "cover-up".
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan reads: "She told me he was hated within the gardai.."
McCann: There were plenty of gardai very much on his side. Marrinan: But you may have said it. McCann: I don't think I would have said that
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan reads: There was no [penalty point] scandal and all anyone had to do when they got pen points was to write a letter to local Supt, tell them it was a mistake and good chance the points would be quashed
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann says she did raise this in a news conference but she explained she said it to explain in conference that it was legitimate process where one could, if they felt, seek discretion to be used. She says this is open to everyone.
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann says she can't recall a conversation AOR claims they had - in which it's alleged McCann said she was worried her name would be printed in paper, about her points being quashed
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan going through AOR's statement line by line. McCann denies talking to her dad (a senior guard) about Ms D/Sgt McCabe. Says her information is her information.
#DisclosuresTribunal She denies telling AOR that she was going up to Ms D to "get her to talk" and denies saying she got it from someone "high up"
#DisclosuresTribunal Marr reads out allegation by AOR that McCann said Supt Taylor told her (McCann) that Ms D was in a "bad way". McCann again refuses to answer question about any conversation w/ Taylor. Marr points out she has no prob answering questions about NOS and her dad
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan: Before Paul Williams' articles, did you discuss this matter with PW? McCann first says she can't remember and then says she might have discussed something with PW but not specifics as to when he was going down, etc.
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann says she speaks to Paul Williams "very occasionally". "He's not someone I would speak to on an ongoing basis."
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan recalls Taylor's evidence, he says McCann and Eavan Murray, of the Irish Sun, phoned him before they visited D house. McCann says nobody directs her in her job
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan suggests it's a coincidence that McCann and Eavan Murray both went to D house while in contact with Taylor. McCann says she was in constant contact with Taylor - contact around then wasn't any more than any other given week
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann also says that AOR wouldn't know her (McCann's) sources. McCann says she doesn't go around revealing sources to ppl.
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR has told tribunal she told McCann she had met McCabe, didn't believe the rumours and found him to be credible. AOR claims McCann told her that McCabe was manipulating her [AOR] and told her not to fall for it. McCann says she "certainly did not" say that
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan reading out bit where AOR alleges McCann told her she spent an hour with Ms D, described the state she was in and how McCann told her to be "careful" of Maurice McCabe. [BOTH McCann and Mrs D say McCann was turned away from D house when she called]
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann repeats her evidence that she as turned away from the D door. Says she called her office and colleague Valerie Hanley and told them what happened immediately after she was turned away.
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann says back in the office on the following Saturday where her and her colleagues talked about what they did during the week, she would have shared this. McCann: If I had done what she said..did this fictitious interview I'd have been instantly found out
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann says: I've never met Ms D in my life. Marrinan asks is it possible she spoke to Paul Williams about Ms D. McCann says her recollection is all she knows of PW interaction with Ms D is his articles.
#DisclosuresTribunal After further questions from Marrinan, McCann concedes it's possible she talked to PW but she's emphatic that their contact is very sporadic
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan put to McCann that the detail AOR claims McCann told her about the Ms D allegation is very close to what Ms D did claim...McCann says she didn't know the level of detail AOR claims she relayed to her
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan reads out bit where AOR told tribunal when asking about where she (McCann) was getting her info from "I asked from your pal, Noirin and she said yes". McC rejects this - says she wasn't in contact with NOS at time and wouldn't have revealed sources
#DisclosuresTribunal A series of texts which tribunal has previously seen is recalled. This includes one in which McCann said 'I'm fully aware and it's gross ...and there's a girl seriously fucked up at centre of this'
#DisclosuresTribunal Tribunal previously saw this text came after a text AOR sent to McCann about Sean Guerin report and that it found McCabe was "highly respected"
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR says there's a deleted text in that series (after the text about the Guerin report & McCabe and before the "gross" text"). McCann's text to AOR is "Paul Williams and the Indo have an agenda against McCabe..."
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann says this changes the understanding of those texts. Says she was calling the alleged agenda of PW and Indo against McCabe "gross" and not what Guerin found in relation to McCabe.
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann is shown phone billing records of contacts btw her and Taylor in Feb/March 2014...McCann says she would be in contact with him a lot and especially Fri/Sat as she works for a Sunday paper.
#DisclosuresTribunal Sees on evening of March 8, 2014 - the day Paul Williams interviewed Ms D - Taylor had calls with Martin Callinan and NOS and there was a call with McCann. McCann says she can't recall what was happening that day. She can't recall what story was breaking then
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan asks McCann (again) if she told Supt Taylor that she had been to Ms D's house. McCann repeats she can't answer that question. Says she had on the record and off the records contacts with Taylor. McCann says she's put in a very awkward position
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann says there's no question she/Mail were not going to tell it about her visit to Ms D house. McCann says she was of the understanding that they were dealing with a source protection/privilege issue. McCann: There was no question of concealing this
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan reminds tribunal Taylor never disclosed his knowledge of McCann's visit to the D house until he was asked about it by the tribunal. Marrinan asks McCann if she's sure she didn't discuss matters with Taylor when tribunal set up. McCann: Absolutely not
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan going through phone records again - highlighting calls between Taylor and McCann and calls between Taylor and Eavan Murray, of Irish Sun - who also visited D house in early 2014. Taylor also didn't tell trib he knew of EM's visit either, until asked
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan points out that - at time of first article by Paul Williams (April 12, 2014) - Taylor was in contact with Williams, McCann and Eavan Murray. Marrinan asks if her contact with Taylor at this time was about Ms D article
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann says she had just had a baby then (two week old baby at this time) and she can't recall what the text was about. She also repeats again that she can't disclose communications with Taylor for reasons of source protection.
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann has repeatedly spoken of what she has to do "going forward" as a journalist
#DisclosuresTribunal After some back and forth with the judge, Judge tells McCann: I'm not an idiot..I've been sitting here for almost 90 days..I know an awful lot of people haven't told me the truth. McCann: I have told the truth to the best of my ability.
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann repeats she's doing her best. Repeats she's trying to defend her career talking of sources will harm her future career. Marrinan puts to McCann the flip side is also true - some sources might not trust her as she'll be seen as someone who abandons them
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan says if Taylor is telling the truth and there's a wall of silence from journalists, whom he claims he negatively briefed about McCabe - if he's telling the truth he could be condemned a liar and that would not be right
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann says Taylor's waiver doesn't release her from her own obligations. Marrinan says his waiver DOES because by claiming privilege, she's actually placing him in jeopardy
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann says source protection is very improtant to journalists and very important to her. Says: "I have to go back to being a journalist when this is over and I have to try and maintain that level of source protection in relation to my profession."
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell, for McCabe, is now putting it to McCann that's she's being careful with her words and distinguishing between evidence of a smear Vs Taylor telling ppl "factual" details of Ms D case.
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell presses McCann (repeatedly) to say if she thinks someone like Taylor telling Paul Williams about the factual aspects of Ms D case is smearing. Lot of back and forth on this. McDowell moves on as he says his 15 minutes (of qs) is rapidly eroding
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann tells McDowell that she didn't know the full DPP directions when she went to D house. She just knew the DPP ruled no prosecution
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann repeating her evidence about when she met Mrs D. McCann claims that Mrs D seemed upset at the door and there had been a news item on radio about Sgt McCabe. McDowell says this is not something Mrs D told the tribunal.
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell asks McCann about date she went to Ms D. She cannot recall. Says the Mail has no documentary evidence of her date (mileage receipts, etc)
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell points out that Mr D has told the tribunal that he wasn't in contact with Paul Williams - via Supt John O'Reilly - until after the following: McCann visited the house, Eavan Murray visited the house and Michael O'Toole contacted him on Facebook
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell refers to text in which she texted AOR and said "there's a very messed up girl" in respect of Ms D.
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell asks McCann if it's her evidence that she based this view of Ms D on hearing an allegation (about which she didn't know the detail) and brief meeting Mrs D at door (McCann says she was upset) and nothing else. McCann says it is.
#DisclosuresTribunal Asked if she wants to add anything to that, McCann says she got a gut reaction after meeting Mrs D and says she found Mrs D to be credible. Says she put 2 and 2 together. McDowell: And you got 22.
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell puts to McCann that Maurice McCabe deserves a little bit of the truth and that Martin Callinan and Noirin O'Sullivan are entitled to a little bit of the truth from her mouth.
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell: If it's the case Dave Taylor NEVER imparted information to you of a FACTUAL kind - surely that WOULDN'T damage your reputation as a journalist.
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann repeats again that the question puts her back in the same situation re: source protection, etc. McDowell warns McCann that he will be making a submission to the judge to say that her failure to give a straight answer to that question...
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd] strongly implies that Dave Taylor DID impart information to McCann about McCabe. McDowell says he's giving McCann one last opportunity to answer the question.
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann says he doesn't want that inferred. But she repeats she cannot tell the tribunal about off the record conversations with sources.
#DisclosuresTribunal Taylor's counsel reminds McCann about Taylor's waiver. She says (again) that that doesn't allow her to waive her responsibility. Taylor's counsel (O'Higgins) going through Taylor's evidence - what he says McCann told him/he told McCann
#DIsclosuresTribunal OH puts to McCann that it's Taylor's evidence that McCann told him she was going up to D house and asks if this is the case. She (again) says she can't answer that. McCann repeats she's not going to tell details of conversations she had with Taylor
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge steps in and asks if she can confirm she told Taylor about visit to Ms D after it occurred - in the same way she told the judge and tribunal about the visit - McCann repeats again she can't go into details of conversations with Taylor
#DisclosuresTribunal OH asks about the murmurings that McCann had heard. She says they're very vague. OH: Who was first person who said there's a question mark over McCabe? McCann: I don't know if I knew that detail before actively seeking it out.
#DisclosuresTribunal Asked about when she learned of the specific allegation. McCann said she can recall the person who told her but she's not going to tell tribunal who. Then McCann clarifies and says she had multiple sources: "Some are gardai, some are not."
#DisclosuresTribunal Asked if Taylor was one of those sources, McCann says she cannot disclose that.
#DisclosuresTribunal OH calls up statement of McCAnn to tribunal in which it says: For avoidance of any doubt...I can confirm that none of the open communications that Ms McCann had with Taylor relate to matters falling within the terms of reference to the tribunal
#DisclosuresTribunal OH asks if this infers that the non-open communications (off the record) with Taylor DO fall within terms of reference.
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann (eventually) says: I'm telling you that I can't say that they did and I can't say that they didn't
#DisclosuresTribunal Counsel for D family puts to McCann it's Mrs D's evidence if she seemed upset when McCann called to her door, it was because McC called to the door unannounced. McCann says her recollection is that she was upset after hearing something on radio about McCabe
#DisclosuresTribunal D counsel saying Mrs D evidence is that she and McCann had no conversation of any substance. Says it was McCann who said to her [Mrs D] that D family had been through a hard time. McCann concedes it's possible she may have said something like that.
#DisclosuresTribunal Alison O'Reilly's counsel now asking questions of McCann.
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR counsel says AOR's statement was very detailed. And she hadn't responded to the accusations in it - to the tribunal - for some time. McCann says AOR's statement didn't change her position.
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR counsel has asked McCann if she's saying AOR is lying. McCann says there's no other reason on Earth as to why she would say I interviewed Ms D, etc.
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR counsel asks why considering detail of conversations AOR told tribunal she had with McCann..why is the tribunal only hearing in recent days that McCann disagrees with AOR's evidence
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann: I have never accepted any bit of what she [AOR] was saying. AOR counsel: Why didn't you tell tribunal investigators that in July 2017? McCann: It was always my intention to tell my side of the story.
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR counsel: But why not in July 2017. McCann: Because her statement didn't change my position. When called to give evidence, I would set out my position
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR counsel says yesterday IMOS editor Conor O'Donnell conceded that it's not a secret, everybody knows that crime correspondents' principle sources are gardai. McCann says yes gardai are principle sources but she says crime corrs have a variety of sources
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR counsel: I suggest that your information came from sources within the gardai... I've said the information came from garda sources and other sources. McCann concedes her principal source was gardai. AOR counsel says she said this to AOR. McCann denies this
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR counsel draws up the text messages. McCann says she'd like to know why the text in relation to Paul Williams and Indo (allegedly having an agenda against McCabe) wasn't given to the tribunal
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR counsel says there's something about blue messages and green messages. Says if she's suggesting the text was inappropriately deleted, AOR strongly denies that.
#DisclosuresTribunal [NOTE: In response to the text about PW and Indo (as opposed to Guerin investigation) McCann texted AOR: "I am fully aware. And to be honest I think it's gross. There is a very messed up girl at the heart of it and no one gives a fuck".
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR counsel pointing out that her concern for a 'very messed up girl' - which appears in McCann's text - and the claim by AOR that McCann told her Dave Taylor told her [McCann] that she was in a 'bad way' are very similar
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann repeats she never met Ms D.
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR counsel reading the claim of AOR that she asked McCann if she was getting her info "from your pal, Noirin" and that she agreed.
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann tells tribunal she didn't say that, says she wasn't in contact with NOS during that time at all, she doesn't go around revealing sources and she's not a braggart either
#DisclosuresTribunal Earlier McCann used the word "tickling" in regards to her understanding of Ms D's allegation against McCabe. AOR counsel puts to McCann the only place the word 'tickling' appears in relation to Ms D is in Supt Noel Cunningham's report into the 2006 allegation
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR counsel: I'm suggesting you have the Garda file. McCann: No I don't and I've never had sight of that. AOR counsel: Where did you get word 'tickling' from? McCann: From a source. AOR counsel: This suggests source had access to file. McCann: I don't know
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan SC, for tribunal, asks McCann in terms of "tickling" word...asks if she can confirm if any of her sources were from Tusla/HSE. McCann says: Again, I don't think I can answer that question... It's probing and again puts me in an awkward position
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge points out there are 100s-plus of Tusla/HSE workers. Marrinan reminds McCann of the tribunal's work in regards to Tusla module (about false rape allegation). Marrinan asks question again
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann: What I will say is that I don't know aybody in Tulsa or the HSE...I perhaps have an aunt..I don't know
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge is now going through Supt Cunningham's file on Ms D allegation. Judge: Any fair reading of that, would who there's nothing to discuss (as in McCabe had no case to answer). McCann agrees.
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge asking about ppl asking questions about McCabe 7/8 years after DPP ruled. Says it's very hard to know why anyone was discussing it. McCann repeats she was just checking out an allegation.
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge tells McCann she may be called to give back evidence.
#DIsclosuresTribunal AOR counsel recalls AOR evidence that McCann said AOR that McCabe was a paedophile and a dirty f***ing b******. AOR counsel says McCann denies saying this and has said she doesn't use that language
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR counsel draws attention to two texts before the tribunal in which she used work f***ing and f***. McCann: I generally don't use that kind of language and it's very unfortunate that those texts have been produced where it is used
#DisclosuresTribunal Before judge started to talk about Supt Cunningham's file, solicitor Michael Kealey, for McCann, asked McCann if she knew she was the person who Brendan Howlin was referring to when he spoke about the D allegation and McCabe in the Dail in 2017. McCann: No.
#DisclosuresTribunal Asked how she felt when she got a letter in May 2017 from the tribunal in which she was told she was the person Howlin was talking about and that this came by way of Alison O'Reilly, McCann: Horrified..
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd] McCann: I felt that I was going to have to defend myself about stuff that wasn't true...I was in the most impossible position because of privilege and everything else...they were complete untruths
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd] McCann: And I was then in a position where this stuff was put out there, it was written about and it was all over social media. It distressed me.
#DisclosuresTribunal Kealey points out TD Clare Daly made a statement to tribunal in April 2017. [Tribunal has previously heard AOR shared her and McCann's texts with Alan Crohan in Oct 2016 and AC passed these on to Daly. AOR told tribunal she didn't know AC would pass them on]
#DisclosuresTribunal Kealey outlines how McCann then later learned from tribunal that these texts were given to Daly.
#DisclosuresTribunal In regards to the series of texts, which didn't contain the one about Paul Williams and the Indo, McCann said: I felt like the entire exchange was being held back for some reason - probably to show me in a bad light. Again, it was distressing
#DisclosuresTribunal On Monday the witnesses will be: John Mooney, Cormac O Keeffe, Daniel McConnell, Juno McEnroe, Eavan Murray
#DisclosuresTribunal On Tuesday it will be the 3 witnesses that the tribunal didn't get to today: Dearbhil McDonald, Ian Mallon and Paul Williams
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