Good morning from Bathurst where an arbitration hearing for two Bathurst Police Force officers will resume. Indications are that both officers will testify about Jan. 12, 2015. Tweets in this thread. Initial story: cbc.ca/news/canada/ne…
Brian Munro, lawyer for Patrick Bulger, says the officer will be the first to testify this morning.
The 42-year-old has been a police officer since 2007 after working as a paramedic starting in 1996.
He was a general duty police officer from 2007 to 2013. He then was transferred to the Bathurst drugs unit.
Munro turns to Jan. 12, 2015.
Bulger says Boudreau picked him up and drove him to the Bathurst police station. They were working on a "small project" and getting through paperwork, email, mainly admin work.
Bulger says Boudreau picked him up and drove him to the Bathurst police station. They were working on a "small project" and getting through paperwork, email, mainly admin work.
The Northeast Integrated Intelligence Unit, which he was part of at this point, worked in an open concept room at the Bathurst police station. He checked his email - he doesn't recall the time - and then Sgt. Ron DeSilva walked to the printer, came back, and spoke to everyone.
"You guys missed a load of drugs this morning," he recalls DeSilva saying. DeSilva said it was coming by train and it had already arrived.
Bulger says he then called the train station. He told DeSilva the train had yet to arrive.
Bulger says he then called the train station. He told DeSilva the train had yet to arrive.
He recalls Larry Matchett then saying he'd go to the train station and check it out. Bulger says DeSilva then told others to go as well.
He says he was wearing civilian clothes, which was normal dress for the unit unless they were going to court.
Bulger says he grabbed the encrypted radio system. Another officer printed photos of Michel Vienneau found on the motor vehicle database.
Bulger says he grabbed the encrypted radio system. Another officer printed photos of Michel Vienneau found on the motor vehicle database.
Bulger says on the way from the unit's office, he stopped to brief Sgt. Ernie Boudreau on what was happening so the patrol guys won't "burn the guys" by driving by the surveillance operation.
Boudreau is now the police chief, the complainant in this hearing. Boudreau is sitting about 10 feet away from where Bulger is testifying. Photo of him walking in this morning: 
Bulger was the passenger in an unmarked Pontiac G6 police car driven by Mathieu Boudreau. They got to the train station, parked next to Larry Matchett and handed him a copy of the photo of Vienneau.
Bulger says it was obvious the white Chevy Cruze named in the tip and registered to Vienneau was there overnight as it was covered in a light dusting of snow.
They parked the G6 along the left side of the Cruze facing toward the train tracks, perhaps one parking spot between the two vehicles.
While waiting for the train, he used the police encrypted radio to tell the other officers at the train station about what they'd do once the train arrived.
He recalls Denis Lajoie calling by phone - not the radio - to ask where to park. Told him to park on Duke Street, north of the train station. Julie Daigle was parked in a driveway across from the station with a clear line of sight.
Bulger says the plan was to wait until they knew Vienneau had all his luggage before trying to stop him. So if he went north, they'd wait until he was past train station building before intercepting him. If he moved south, Boudreau would move the G6 to block the Cruze.
He says this plan was outlined over the radio system. “Everyone acknowledged," Bulger said.
He says as the train was arriving, "I described the play-by-play" of what he was seeing.
He says as the train was arriving, "I described the play-by-play" of what he was seeing.
They identified Vienneau as he came around the corner of the train station building moving toward the white Cruze. He was with a woman. He doesn't recall if her name was in the tip, but recalls the tip said he was with a woman. Pic of the train station from last month:
He saw that they had bags. One backpack, another black bag. Both were put in the trunk of the car. He was relaying this all over the radio to the other officers and was hearing acknowledgments.
Vienneau was brushing the snow off the car, Bulger recalls. He says at one point Vienneau gave the brush to the woman, then Vienneau appeared to take photos or video of the train. The woman then got in the car.
The man - Vienneau - sat in the driver's seat, started the Cruze and began to back up.
"As soon as I saw the direction he was going to take ... I called right away for Julie. 'Go Julie, go, he's going to go south,'" Bulger recalls.
"As soon as I saw the direction he was going to take ... I called right away for Julie. 'Go Julie, go, he's going to go south,'" Bulger recalls.
When he started to back up, Boudreau started to back up. Mathieu Boudreau flipped on the police lights. He says you can hear a "tick tick tick" when the lights are on. Says the lights were working at that moment.
He grabbed with his left hand his badge that was on a chain around his neck. He says the badge had been under his protective vest, so he pulled it out from under it. He then started to exit. "I can already hear the motor revving," he says of the Cruze.
Then "as I cleared the door, he hit me, he hit our car, I hear the crack" and the G6 moved a foot or two back, Bulger says.
"I was yelling 'police, police, stop,'" he says.
"I was yelling 'police, police, stop,'" he says.
He said when the Cruze hit the G6, he thought Vienneau was going to leave the area because he now had a clear exit. He says the revving of the engine didn't stop and was accelerating toward Bulger.
"At one point, he hit my left knee," Bulger says.
"At one point, he hit my left knee," Bulger says.
He's using hand signs to show how the cars were front bumper to front bumper, then the passenger side bumper of the Cruze hit the G6.
"the car turned towards me, not stopping," he says. He says it then hit his left knee and he put his hands on the car to re-balance himself. He says he didn't fall. He says the car still wasn't slowing down. "I was backing up, backing up, backing up as quick as I can."
He says he felt something on his back that he now knows was a snowbank. He says that's when the car hit him again while he was against the snowbank.
"I was stuck under the bumper at that point," Bulger says.
"I was stuck under the bumper at that point," Bulger says.
Munro goes back over the sequence.
"I was trying to run away from the car" but it kept coming, Bulger says.
When he was hit the second time, he was just in front of the tire. His knee was "six inches from the tire spinning, I could see that."
"I was trying to run away from the car" but it kept coming, Bulger says.
When he was hit the second time, he was just in front of the tire. His knee was "six inches from the tire spinning, I could see that."
"At that point, I was afraid to die, I was afraid for my life," Bulger says. He says at that point, he started to raise his sidearm. At that moment he could see Julie Daigle in her red coat. He says she was "cross fire" with him, in his line of fire.
He says the bumper was over his abdomen while he was against the snowbank. He didn't fire at that point because Daigle was in his line of fire.
He says the tire was still spinning. The car moved again and then he heard "bang, bang." He then fired at the rear tire to try to stop the car because he didn't think it would stop.
After the "bang bang" he says the revving of the Cruze's engine stopped.
After the "bang bang" he says the revving of the Cruze's engine stopped.
Bulger says he was still on the ground, slowly got up and saw Daigle and Boudreau standing up on the driver's side of the Cruze. He didn't know who had fired at that point.
Bulger says he tried to open the passenger door, but it was locked. It then wasn't locked. He saw the passenger's hands and both were on the stick shift and he then re-holstered his firearm.
He tried to remove the woman, but fell on his back. It took a few seconds to stand. "My knee was hurting," Bulger says.
Another person said they would get the woman, so he went to the driver's side and started CPR on Vienneau.
Another person said they would get the woman, so he went to the driver's side and started CPR on Vienneau.
He's describing looking for entry and exit wounds, putting his hands over the entry wound he found on Vienneau's left ribs.
Denis Lajoie, also a former paramedic, started helping out as well. They were using plastic to try to stop air from getting in the wound.
He says he recalls the ambulance arriving, inserting a tube in Vienneau's throat. A man showed up who said he was a doctor who took over CPR.
He says he recalls the ambulance arriving, inserting a tube in Vienneau's throat. A man showed up who said he was a doctor who took over CPR.
Bulger and Lajoie went in the ambulance with Vienneau to hospital.
Munro returns to Bulger's description of feeling pain in his knee, shows him a photo that's part of the evidence (media don't have a copy so I'm not sure what it shows).
Bulger describes being on his knees, bent over Vienneau. He says he had a hard time with his knee. Lajoie asked if he was OK. Bulger says his knee was hurting.
"It was hurting, but my main focus was to work on Mr. Vienneau at that time," Bulger says.
"It was hurting, but my main focus was to work on Mr. Vienneau at that time," Bulger says.
Later in the day, he was driven to the Bathurst hospital by Daigle and another officer.
Munro is entering three pages of documents into evidence.
Bulger describes them as a triage sheet filled out when he went to hospital.
Munro is entering three pages of documents into evidence.
Bulger describes them as a triage sheet filled out when he went to hospital.
A doctor examined his knee and sent him for an x-ray. As a result, the doctor told him he had what Bulger describes as a bone detachment. He was given a brace to wear for a couple weeks.
Munro wrapped up his questions, cross-examination underway now by Chiasson. I missed a few minutes to record a radio story, but he's going through what Bulger was wearing that day (dark grey hoodie with "Canada" on the front over his soft body armour)
I'm also holding off tweeting at the moment to write a web update. Chiasson is going over the notion of risks police face on the job.
Chiasson: At what point did you decide to arrest Vienneau?
Bulger: When they realized that Vienneau wasn't going to pick up any more luggage.
Bulger: When they realized that Vienneau wasn't going to pick up any more luggage.
This was the first time he had fired his weapon while making an arrest, Bulger says.
Chiasson going back through the tips, what was in them. Bulger says the second had references to "pills" and suggested that Vienneau would be intoxicated after drinking on the train.
Chiasson: What info did you have when you left the police station?
Bulger says they had names, where they were coming from, where they were headed, the info about the Cruze at the train station, the photo of Vienneau.
Bulger says they had names, where they were coming from, where they were headed, the info about the Cruze at the train station, the photo of Vienneau.
Did you have access to computers to search for Vienneau’s name?
Yes
Did you do that?
No
Did you know that name from your experience in the drug world?
No, my work was in the Bathurst area.
Yes
Did you do that?
No
Did you know that name from your experience in the drug world?
No, my work was in the Bathurst area.
Any indication before that morning that the Cruze was used to transport drugs?
No
You had no idea who the female was?
Correct
No info about her to lead you to suspect her of drug trafficking?
Correct
No
You had no idea who the female was?
Correct
No info about her to lead you to suspect her of drug trafficking?
Correct
Did Sgt. Ron DeSilva give you a specific order to go to the train station?
“I was tasked to go to the train station, otherwise he would have said not to go there,” Bulger says.
“I was tasked to go to the train station, otherwise he would have said not to go there,” Bulger says.
Did he tell you anything before you left?
“‘Be safe, don’t get into a chase’ - some wording like that,” Bulger recalls DeSilva telling him before they left the office.
“‘Be safe, don’t get into a chase’ - some wording like that,” Bulger recalls DeSilva telling him before they left the office.
Chiasson probes what grounds they had for the arrest.
“Everything was there,” Bulger says of what the tip had described. He says what they say corroborated the tips.
Enough info for you to make an arrest?
At that time, yes.
“Everything was there,” Bulger says of what the tip had described. He says what they say corroborated the tips.
Enough info for you to make an arrest?
At that time, yes.
Do you recall Boudreau telling you he felt nervous?
While they were waiting for the train.
What did you tell him?
That it’s normal.
While they were waiting for the train.
What did you tell him?
That it’s normal.
Did you direct anyone to do a background check on Vienneau?
No.
Did anyone do checks on Vienneau on police databases while waiting for the train?
No.
And you don't have an explanation why it wasn't done?
"I didn't do it myself, no."
No.
Did anyone do checks on Vienneau on police databases while waiting for the train?
No.
And you don't have an explanation why it wasn't done?
"I didn't do it myself, no."
Did anyone contact the RCMP in Tracadie to ask about Vienneau?
No.
Did anyone ask about the female?
"I didn't."
No.
Did anyone ask about the female?
"I didn't."
Was there a police siren in the unmarked police car you were driving?
Yes
Did it work to your knowledge?
Yes.
You've used it before?
To get someone to pull over.
Did it have a PA system?
Don't recall.
Yes
Did it work to your knowledge?
Yes.
You've used it before?
To get someone to pull over.
Did it have a PA system?
Don't recall.
Do you recall telling Boudreau to put the lights and siren on?
The only thing I told him was to turn on the lights.
The siren was never put on?
No.
If you were driving, would you have put it on?
"I don't know, probably not."
The only thing I told him was to turn on the lights.
The siren was never put on?
No.
If you were driving, would you have put it on?
"I don't know, probably not."
Chiasson: Did you discuss with Boudreau en route the details of the plan? The practical steps to effect the arrest?
Bulger: The plan was made when we parked and arrived there and saw how the car was parked.
Bulger: The plan was made when we parked and arrived there and saw how the car was parked.
You went on the radio to explain what would happen?
Yes. Everybody on the team agreed and acknowledged at that point.
Did you tell anyone what you’d do once face-to-face?
“You cannot predict what’s going to happen.” If you go by textbook, you put on the lights, get out.
Yes. Everybody on the team agreed and acknowledged at that point.
Did you tell anyone what you’d do once face-to-face?
“You cannot predict what’s going to happen.” If you go by textbook, you put on the lights, get out.
You could foresee the options when he left the train station. The plan would be different depending on the direction.
Yes.
Yes.
Chiasson: You were in charge of the operation?
Bulger: That morning, I was the one leading. It changes from time to time. “That morning, because Ron gave me the tip and the order to go, I was the one in charge.”
You stayed in charge?
I was the one relaying info to the team.
Bulger: That morning, I was the one leading. It changes from time to time. “That morning, because Ron gave me the tip and the order to go, I was the one in charge.”
You stayed in charge?
I was the one relaying info to the team.
Recall any discussion with Boudreau before the train arrived about pulling out firearm?
Not that I can recall.
Not that I can recall.
Fair to say you didn’t see any drugs?
I didn’t see any drugs.
Since you didn’t see any, is it fair to say that you didn’t see any obvious sign of intoxication.
“No, I didn’t see any impairment.”
I didn’t see any drugs.
Since you didn’t see any, is it fair to say that you didn’t see any obvious sign of intoxication.
“No, I didn’t see any impairment.”
Updated web story with info up to when cross-examination started: cbc.ca/news/canada/ne…
Do you recall seeing Basque looking at you? She testified seeing two men in the car looking like they were arguing.
Not exactly looking at me.
Did you realize that at some point in time she was looking at you?
No.
Not exactly looking at me.
Did you realize that at some point in time she was looking at you?
No.
Going back to purpose for being at the train station. You said to go to investigate and corroborate what you heard at the police station?
Correct.
What you saw corroborated it?
Correct
Correct.
What you saw corroborated it?
Correct
The second tip spoke of them possibly being intoxicated - that would create an immediate danger to anyone around?
I saw no sign of impairment. He was walking around. No sign that him or her were under the influence.
I saw no sign of impairment. He was walking around. No sign that him or her were under the influence.
But you agreed someone could be under the influence without any obvious sign?
Yes.
Why not stop him when he got in the car?
Because no sign of impairment.
Yes.
Why not stop him when he got in the car?
Because no sign of impairment.
But you said you couldn't see any sign of drugs?
"It's two different things. I cannot arrest someone if I don't see any sign of impairment."
But you had info about possible impairment?
Yes.
"It's two different things. I cannot arrest someone if I don't see any sign of impairment."
But you had info about possible impairment?
Yes.
Why stop him there?
We had info that he had drugs and there he was as described coming off the train.
So you'd arrest him to investigate further?
Yes, for possible possession for the purpose of trafficking.
We had info that he had drugs and there he was as described coming off the train.
So you'd arrest him to investigate further?
Yes, for possible possession for the purpose of trafficking.
"Our main goal was to stop him and talk to him, but that wasn't what happened," Bulger says.
Chiasson asks if he'd agree what unfolded happened as a result of their actions.
No.
Chiasson asks if he'd agree what unfolded happened as a result of their actions.
No.
Did Vienneau do anything to make you feel threatened as he was outside the car?
Not at that point, but I can't see under clothing, I don't know what he has in his possession. "I don't know if he has a knife or a gun."
Not at that point, but I can't see under clothing, I don't know what he has in his possession. "I don't know if he has a knife or a gun."
Chiasson: Supposed Vienneau went the other way, north. What would Lajoie and Richard have done?
If it went that way, Julie Daigle would have called the situation and made the stop.
If it went that way, Julie Daigle would have called the situation and made the stop.
But they would've been "burned," as Bulger put it earlier, by doing so? Revealing themselves to the public as officers?
He worked with the unit for a few months. They switch from covert to tactical as required.
He worked with the unit for a few months. They switch from covert to tactical as required.
Chiasson suggests breaking at this point, that his cross-examination could continue for another hour. Boudreau also expected to be called to testify today. The hearing is adjourned for lunch.
The hearing has resumed. Chiasson asks if would've been possible to arrest Vienneau farther away from the train station.
It could, but that would've been a different scenario.
It could, but that would've been a different scenario.
Would it have been possible to ask a marked police car to stop him? Making it obvious it was police?
"It's possible," Bulger says.
"It's possible," Bulger says.
Bulger says on cross-examination that as soon as the Chevy Cruze hit their car, it wasn’t about arresting Vienneau for trafficking, it was about staying safe.
Why not wait in the car when face-to-face with the Cruze until another officer blocks Vienneau's vehicle from the rear?
“I would not sit like a sitting duck in my car when I’m making a drug arrest because I don’t know if they have a gun or something,” Bulger says.
“I would not sit like a sitting duck in my car when I’m making a drug arrest because I don’t know if they have a gun or something,” Bulger says.
Chiasson gets him to read from a policy for effecting high risk vehicle stops. It says "NEVER APPROACH" in capital letters.
Bulger says each situation is different.
Bulger says each situation is different.
Chiasson says given the heightened risk making a drug arrest, partially exposed. It begs the question: Why make the arrest, the stop, there?
Bulger says he doesn't understand the question.
Bulger says he doesn't understand the question.
He rephrases, says the only reason they ended up in that situation was because Boudreau backed up to face the car.
Yes, he says Boudreau backed up to block the car.
So why there with people around?
Bulger says everywhere they'd pull a car over would have people around.
Yes, he says Boudreau backed up to block the car.
So why there with people around?
Bulger says everywhere they'd pull a car over would have people around.
Bulger: The decision was made there, he radioed everyone, and they all agreed. It was decided they'd block the car there before it could get away and get on a chase.
At what point while waiting for the train did you decide to take out your gun?
“It’s not something you plan in advance,” Bulger says. “You react with what is presented to you.” When the Cruze accelerated, something was wrong. So he grabbed his gun. Then the Cruze hit their car.
“It’s not something you plan in advance,” Bulger says. “You react with what is presented to you.” When the Cruze accelerated, something was wrong. So he grabbed his gun. Then the Cruze hit their car.
Chiasson: So don’t think you decided to come out of the car with gun in hand?
Bulger: I don’t recall that.
What if I said you agreed with Boudreau you'd come out with gun in hand?
I don't recall that. We had a lot of discussion in the car waiting for the train.
Bulger: I don’t recall that.
What if I said you agreed with Boudreau you'd come out with gun in hand?
I don't recall that. We had a lot of discussion in the car waiting for the train.
Why attempt the stop at that busy spot?
They were there to protect the public.
Do you believe that’s what you did on that day?
Tried to, yes, Bulger says.
They were there to protect the public.
Do you believe that’s what you did on that day?
Tried to, yes, Bulger says.
Bulger essentially laid this argument out earlier today but not as clearly.
Annick Basque in her testimony said she didn't know you were an officer when she saw you get out of the G6. Recall that testimony?
Yes.
And others testified she was yelling 'you're not police officers' after the shooting?
Yes.
Yes.
And others testified she was yelling 'you're not police officers' after the shooting?
Yes.
Did you know what Boudreau was supposed to do when the cars came face-to-face?
Get out of the car and assist me.
Given it was his first time doing that, did you give him any caution.
No. There was the conversation about him being nervous. Bulger told him it's normal.
Get out of the car and assist me.
Given it was his first time doing that, did you give him any caution.
No. There was the conversation about him being nervous. Bulger told him it's normal.
Do you believe that doing what did in jumping out of the car displayed good judgement?
Bulger doesn't directly answer, focuses on the word "jumping" and says that's not what he did.
Bulger doesn't directly answer, focuses on the word "jumping" and says that's not what he did.
Chiasson recounts Annick Basque testifying about seeing a gun pointed at them.
Bulger says when he was exiting the car, he had one hand on his badge, one on the door.
He grabs his sidearm as he’s clearing the door. The Cruze was revving. He moved his gun toward the threat.
Bulger says when he was exiting the car, he had one hand on his badge, one on the door.
He grabs his sidearm as he’s clearing the door. The Cruze was revving. He moved his gun toward the threat.
Going back to describing his positioning when against the snowbank facing the car. He leans on his right side in the seat, says the bumper was around his ribs. Passenger-side headlight in front of his face.
Following a break, Chiasson continues his cross-examination.
He goes down a line of hypothetical questions about what Bulger would've done IF Vienneau had stopped.
Tell him he was under arrest for trafficking, Bulger says. Then search the car.
He goes down a line of hypothetical questions about what Bulger would've done IF Vienneau had stopped.
Tell him he was under arrest for trafficking, Bulger says. Then search the car.
How would you have accessed the trunk?
If he searched the person and found drugs, that would give grounds to search the car.
If you didn’t find drugs on him, then what?
I could go an get a warrant, or have him sign…. Bulger trails off.
If he searched the person and found drugs, that would give grounds to search the car.
If you didn’t find drugs on him, then what?
I could go an get a warrant, or have him sign…. Bulger trails off.
A warrant?
Could have seized the car after the fact and obtained a warrant.
That’s your belief, that you could obtain a warrant.
“I could have done it that way.”
Could have seized the car after the fact and obtained a warrant.
That’s your belief, that you could obtain a warrant.
“I could have done it that way.”
You heard George Richard that explain a Crime Stoppers tip is just that, a tip to begin an investigation.
It’s not up to me if I get a warrant or not.
You heard him talk about a Crime Stopper tip?
“That’s his opinion,” Bulger says.
It’s not up to me if I get a warrant or not.
You heard him talk about a Crime Stopper tip?
“That’s his opinion,” Bulger says.
Had you ever obtained a warrant on a Crime Stoppers tip?
I never tried, Bulger says.
I never tried, Bulger says.
Chiasson wraps cross-examination.
Bulger's lawyer, Brian Munro, begins re-direct questioning.
Bulger's lawyer, Brian Munro, begins re-direct questioning.
Any influence on the design of the badge you had?
No.
So you had to take what you were issued by the force?
Yes.
No.
So you had to take what you were issued by the force?
Yes.
Munro wraps up his questions.
The arbitrator says he has several questions. He first turns to the decision to stop the car and what would've happened if Vienneau did stop.
The arbitrator says he has several questions. He first turns to the decision to stop the car and what would've happened if Vienneau did stop.
"The only corroboration, as far as I can tell, is that it was the man it was alleged to be driving the car he was alleged to be driving. He had a bag where pills could've been held. But that doesn't confirm illegal activity." What would you have told him?
That we had information he was trafficking drugs.
Well what if he said pills, search the car, I don't have pills.
I would've patted him down.
Handcuffs?
Yes.
Well what if he said pills, search the car, I don't have pills.
I would've patted him down.
Handcuffs?
Yes.
Put him in a cruiser?
It all depends. Could have him sit in the car, or outside.
It all depends. Could have him sit in the car, or outside.
Let's say this is the scenario. He's secured. He's got no weapons, nothing illegal. So the reasonable grounds would've evaporated. What would've happened?
Someone would have read his right to counsel. But he would've had the right to go.
So never under arrest?
No.
Someone would have read his right to counsel. But he would've had the right to go.
So never under arrest?
No.
So knowing that, how do you feel about all of this? You've been through hell, it's fair to say.
"It's a hard question to answer. Nobody walks up in teh morning thinking that scenario would occur. When you become a police officer, it's surely not to use your weapon."
"It's a hard question to answer. Nobody walks up in teh morning thinking that scenario would occur. When you become a police officer, it's surely not to use your weapon."
Bulger continues: I can't go back. I was saying to my lawyer that I was made when I released Vienneau to the ER because I was not able to save him.
Arbitrator: Did you ever wonder about the sequence and if there were things you could've done differently?
"The way we did that operation that day, that was the way I was trained." Bulger says they did other operations with the unit the same way.
"The way we did that operation that day, that was the way I was trained." Bulger says they did other operations with the unit the same way.
How many years as a police officer?
12 years.
Did you use your firearm in the line of duty?
Just to deal with injured animals on the side of the highway.
With humans?
No.
Did you take it out?
When executing a search warrant with the drug unit.
12 years.
Did you use your firearm in the line of duty?
Just to deal with injured animals on the side of the highway.
With humans?
No.
Did you take it out?
When executing a search warrant with the drug unit.
"When you're dealing with drugs and things, it's too late to get your gun out when" someone has a gun pointed at you.
Arbitrator: Did you ever feel anger toward Vienneau because he didn't stop?
"No," Bulger says.
Because if he stopped, we wouldn't be here.
Yes.
Arbitrator: Did you ever feel anger toward Vienneau because he didn't stop?
"No," Bulger says.
Because if he stopped, we wouldn't be here.
Yes.
When you fired, was this before or after you heard the other shots?
I do believe I heard bang bang when the car was going up the hill (snowbank).
I do believe I heard bang bang when the car was going up the hill (snowbank).
Arbitrator: So did hearing shots trigger something in your mind to fire? Either your colleagues, or someone in the car.
My thinking was that I didn't want the car to move.
So no link between those shots and you taking a shot?
No.
My thinking was that I didn't want the car to move.
So no link between those shots and you taking a shot?
No.
Arbitrator: How common -- what would you expect to find in the Bathurst police database versus others?
Bulger: In-house information versus data from other jurisdictions.
Bulger: In-house information versus data from other jurisdictions.
Who's responsibility would it have been to run Vienneau's name through the Canadian Police Information Centre database?
The answer wasn't clear.
What if you had a few more hours to check the tip?
A check would've been made, but that doesn't eliminate the decision to go or not.
The answer wasn't clear.
What if you had a few more hours to check the tip?
A check would've been made, but that doesn't eliminate the decision to go or not.
Arbitrator: A no-hit in the database wouldn't have changed your approach?
No.
What if there was a hit?
Still would've gone.
No.
What if there was a hit?
Still would've gone.
Arbitrator: This hearing is in English. These were people from Tracadie. Did you yell "police, stop" in English or French?
Bulger: English. But when he later approached Basque, he spoke to her in French.
Bulger: English. But when he later approached Basque, he spoke to her in French.
When did you remove your gun?
As I was exiting the car, I could hear the car revving, so I started to remove it. As I cleared the door, Vienneau's car hit the unmarked police car.
As I was exiting the car, I could hear the car revving, so I started to remove it. As I cleared the door, Vienneau's car hit the unmarked police car.
Was your intention based on the nature of the tips - had it not revved and moved - would you have removed the gun?
If I see the hands on the steering wheel, my gun would not be out.
What about the passenger?
Same thing. I was on driver's side. Boudreau would deal with passenger.
If I see the hands on the steering wheel, my gun would not be out.
What about the passenger?
Same thing. I was on driver's side. Boudreau would deal with passenger.
Arbitrator: you indicated that if superior officers had issues, they would have intervened?
Yes, and everyone who heard the plan said "10-4, yes, oui."
Yes, and everyone who heard the plan said "10-4, yes, oui."
If there was a plan that you thought was dangerous, would you speak out?
I would voice my concerns.
What if it was a sergeant?
I would speak out.
I would voice my concerns.
What if it was a sergeant?
I would speak out.
You were at the train station about an hour before the train arrived. We've heard about some communication on the radio. We heard Boudreau had "butterflies."
Yes.
Yes.
But there was a whole hour. Surely there was other communication between police.
On the radio, no. I talked to Boudreau.
What about?
We don't have much to talk about because we didn't hang around outside work.
On the radio, no. I talked to Boudreau.
What about?
We don't have much to talk about because we didn't hang around outside work.
Chiasson now gets to ask more questions based on things raised by the arbitrator's questions.
How long does it take to do a CPIC check?
If you have all the information, maybe a few minutes to get the information.
How long does it take to do a CPIC check?
If you have all the information, maybe a few minutes to get the information.
That morning, Chiasson asks, by the time DeSilva gave you the tip info - would you have had sufficient info to run a CPIC check?
Yes.
Yes.
Munro now gets to ask questions based on what's now been asked.
Munro asks if someone could be committing crimes and not appear on CPIC?
Yes, he's experienced someone committing crimes for years without being on the database.
Munro asks if someone could be committing crimes and not appear on CPIC?
Yes, he's experienced someone committing crimes for years without being on the database.
Bulger is done as a witness. TJ Burke says his client - Boudreau - will testify Nov. 22.
Now into some procedural discussion around whether to hold oral final arguments or written.
Now into some procedural discussion around whether to hold oral final arguments or written.
Munro says he'd like to do both. Burke says he'd prefer written submission. He says he's struggling to find dates between now and February.
The arbitrator says he's prepared to sit on weekends, but Burke says he's not prepared to do that. Chiasson also says he's not prepared to do that. Chiasson says they plan to make oral arguments and a written brief.
Final arguments expected in Fredericton on Dec. 9 at 9:30 a.m.
Hearing is adjourned until Nov. 22.
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