Thread by @smagee29

Good morning, the third day of the Bathurst arbitration hearing has resumed. Updates will be posted in this thread and in this story: cbc.ca/news/canada/ne…

The first witness is Wayne Coster of Moncton, an engineer on the Via Rail train that Michel Vienneau and Annick Basque disembarked when it arrived in Bathurst on Jan. 12, 2015.

Bathurst police were waiting at the station for Vienneau after receiving an anonymous tip he was bringing a "load of drugs" back on the train from Montreal.

That tip proved to be false. Police tried to intercept him as he and Basque prepared to drive away from the station. At that point, Const. Patrick Bulger exited an unmarked car. He slipped and disappeared from view. Basque testified she then saw him again with a gun.

Basque testified Vienneau tried to drive the car around him and the unmarked car. That's when Const. Mathieu Boudreau shot at Vienneau. We've been told two bullets hit Vienneau - one was fatal.

Back to the current witness. Coster, the train engineer, had exited the train to help unload baggage. He's describing that process now.

The baggage car was along the parking lot, he says. He says as he started to head back toward the locomotive with his colleague Joe Sutton, Coster says he heard a "big commotion."

"I heard a lot of yelling and commotion going on, enough to bring my attention to the parking lot," he says. Says he heard yelling, hollering.

Basile Chiasson, the lawyer for the police chief, is questioning Coster. He asks if he could hear what was said. Coster says he couldn't quite make it out.
He says he saw a white car leaving toward the east end of the parking lot. It was speeding up.

"Then as it was leaving the parking lot, it gets cut off," he says. It's a single-lane road, so he says he's not going anywhere. He says it appeared the car attempted to make a 360 degree turn. It hit the snowbank "at full force" without brake lights.

"Bang. Just like that. I knew something was happening." He yelled for Joe Sutton, his colleague.
He saw a man running.
"Without any hesitation, he came up along the car and shot out the back driver's side window." He heard him yell "get out of the car, get out of the car."

He then says he heard a series of bangs.

He says he was dressed in plain clothes - no sign he was a police officer.
He says after the shooting, the man continued to yell "get out of the car, get out of the car." He says he then removed the driver from the car.

He says he couldn't see the passenger side of the car and couldn't tell how many people were inside the vehicle that hit the snowbank. Chiasson asks if he saw anyone else around the car. He says only the man. He says after the shooting, he saw more people.

He compares what he saw to a movie or "that the mafia was in town." He yelled to Joe "'there's no police here,'" but Joe points to a car coming into the area that's a marked police vehicle.

Coster says even now "my heart is still pounding because a lot happened there in a few minutes." Asked how long it all unfolded from commotion to gun shots, he says a minute or two at most.

Chiasson asks if he's learned since the shooting who the two people were in the car. He says he's only learned what's been in the news. Asked if he knew Vienneau or Basque. Coster says no.

How many shots did he hear?
Four to five, Coster says.
Who was shooting?
The person who ran up to the driver's side of the car.
Could you see his hands?
Yes, he had a gun.
How was he holding it?
Coster motions with his hand at about a 45 degree angle.

He describes it as a "shooting position."
Asked how he knows that.
He's got firearms, goes hunting. Has been using firearms since he was a teen.

Burke asks if he heard anything about the white car hit an officer, run him over,
"I didn't see anything like that," Coster said.
Burke says other witnesses have testified to that at a criminal court proceeding and are expected to say so again at this hearing.

"I didn't see no one get knocked off or whatsoever," Coster says.
Burke asks if he saw an officer perform CPR and "stick his fingers in the bullet hole?"
Coster says he didn't see that.

There's some tense back and forth between Coster and Burke about his testimony here compared to his police statement. Coster says he saw the white car going fast. Burke says that's not what he told police.

Burke points out yesterday Joe Sutton testified he saw a person "backpedaling" from the car, that Sutton was walking in front of Coster.

And things get more tense.
Coster says he was behind Sutton.
"So you were behind him-"
Coster cuts in to start saying something. Burke keeps going.
"Boy you're something else," Coster says.
"You haven't seen anything yet."
The arbitrator cuts in to tell them to calm down.

Burke points out that Sutton testified he saw police lights, police badges, that Sutton made a comment to Coster about it. Coster says he didn't see lights before the shooting, didn't see badges and doesn't remember the comment.

There's been an extended break. Just before it started, Burke was said to be preparing to show Coster his police statement so they could continue to question what he said then versus now.

Hearing has resumed as Burke continues to probe conflicting statements.
Burke says Boudreau was the shooter, suggests that Boudreau never fired at the driver's window.
Coster repeats he saw that.

Burke asks about the shooter's position.
Coster says he could see his back. Burke pounces on this, says this means it was "impossible" for Coster to see that man holding the gun in the "shooting position" he mentioned in his earlier testimony.

Coster says the man was at an angle. He could see.
He stands up from the chair, turns slightly, says that was the position he was in. Asks if you can see his back.
Burke says he that's not his interpretation.

Burke turns to a line in Coster's police statement where he says "like the lady on the news said I heard three shots."
Coster doesn't recall saying anything about the news.

Coster is asked if he heard anyone yell "police?"
He says he didn't.

Coster is asked to confirm the person he saw shooting was the person who pulled the driver from the car. He confirms that's what he saw. Burke says multiple police officers will testify Boudreau shot, Bulger removed Vienneau from the car.

Burke asks if he maybe didn't see Bulger under the white car. Coster says he couldn't see on the passenger side.

Now on to cross-examination by Brian Munro, the lawyer for Patrick Bulger. He's asking about how much Coster paid attention to news coverage of the shooting and what followed. Says he'd see/hear coverage occasionally, but didn't search it out.

There's a testy back and forth with Munro now with raised voices.
"I can't take much more of him," Coster says of the lawyer.
The arbitrator cuts in to ask them to calm down, that this is about very serious events.

The questioning is around Coster's position just before the commotion he described earlier. Munro is pushing to find out if Coster's back was to the parking lot while helping deal with luggage. Now on to whether Coster saw brake lights.

Now looking at Coster's statement to RCMP in which he describes the car going into the snowbank. Munro pressing on the description of the car going "full speed" into the snowbank, saying it must've been going fast. Coster says it wasn't going 100m/h.

Munro asks about whether he saw anyone in front of the white car. No, Coster says.
Asks whether he saw the car backing up, he says he didn't.

Again going over whether he heard any specific words during the commotion before the shooting. Coster says he'd only be speculating. Munro asks if he heard "police?" Coster says he didn't.
Munro wraps his cross-examination.

Re-direct by lawyer Basile Chiasson.
He asks about the timing of when Sutton told him to look over to the parking lot. Coster says it was after the shooting.
Asks how far the white car was away from him when it was in the snowbank. He says it was about 40 feet.

Chiasson is done. Now the arbitrator has questions. He says he hasn't been to the train station. Asks to explain the distance between when he first saw the white car compared to when it was in the snowbank.
Coster says he thought it was about 100 feet initially, maybe less.

Arbitrator Joel Michaud asks if it got closer or father from him. Coster says the car moved away from him. Estimates it moved perhaps 50 feet.
Hearing is adjourned until 2 p.m.
Chiasson says next witnesses - he thinks maybe three - will be police officers.

The hearing has resumed. Chiasson says over the break they've decided to call two witnesses today. First is RCMP Insp. Ron DeSilva with federal policing unit in Fredericton. In 2015, he was in Bathurst with the Northeast Integrated Intelligence Unit.

That unit was disbanded in 2017: cbc.ca/news/canada/ne…

DeSilva says the unit gathered intelligence through various sources, including human sources. He was with the unit between 2011 and 2015.

DeSilva, shown on the left, was the supervisor of the unit in early January 2015. Constables Bulger and Boudreau were part of the Bathurst Police Force drug unit at that time.

He says the police forces involved in the unit (Bathurst, Miramichi, BNPP and RCMP) shared the intelligence they gathered. In his role, he supervised Bulger and Boudreau in January 2015.

There's a line of questioning by Chiasson about what type of clothing officers in the unit wear. Essentially, DeSilva says plain clothes so that it's not obvious they're police officers when meeting sources or carrying out surveillance.

We're turning to the morning of Jan. 12, 2015. DeSilva estimates he would have arrived around 8 a.m.
DeSilva says Crime Stoppers tips are received by an administrative assistant and it was forwarded to all members of the unit. It was received around 9:52 a.m.

He says Crime Stoppers is an agency that gets tips from the public. They're received at one location and then forwarded to the relevant police agency.

The tip came by email and "I realized the information on the tip had already gone by," he said. It alleged something would happen at 8 a.m. in the morning, which had already gone by. He spoke to Bulger about it.

"The tip was about two individuals travelling to Bathurst with a load of drugs," he said. There were actually two tips. He said they were transporting pills. It had a description of the vehicle they'd be driving.

The names of the two people were included in the tip. DeSilva mentioned to Bulger "that he had missed a load of drugs." He believes he gave him a copy of the email.

The second tip came a minute or two after the first. The second tip had more details. It was electronically provided. "He described the vehicle," made reference to a load of drugs and "pills."

Chiasson asking how such tips are normally dealt with. DeSilva says if they already know of an investigation, they'd pass it along to the investigating unit. If not, they'd perhaps go an investigate.

With this tip on Jan. 12, constables Bulger and Boudreau were assigned to investigate. Not long after the tip was received, Bulger indicated the train was delayed and had not arrived. DeSilva says at that point he asked the other members of the unit to help Bulger and Boudreau.

DeSilva says the members prepared. Usually that prep includes "a bag" with things they'd take for surveillance. He says he hadn't directed Bulger and Boudreau to gather their equipment.

DeSilva repeats that he asked the other members of the unit to help Boudreau and Bulger with the surveillance. They left not long after.

Chiasson asks when DeSilva next saw Boudreau, Bulger. He says it was "at the scene." He says there was no further communication with the two.

Chiasson asks how much time elapsed between when DeSilva saw the members of his unit leave their office and when he learned something had happened at the train station. DeSilva says it was over an hour.

DeSilva says once the tips were received, he looked in PROS - an RCMP file management system - for a photo of Vienneau. He says he initially couldn't find a photo. He doesn't recall if he searched for Annick Basque.

At that point, they only had the two tips, Chiasson says. They didn't find anything in PROS. DeSilva says Vienneau's drivers license was found by another member of the unit, which provided a birth date.

With that information, he re-did the PROS search and found several files and looked for a photo. One was categorized as "other" and DeSilva says the other he thinks Vienneau was the complainant. He says he's not aware of any other steps to verify the info in the tips.

DeSilva says at the time of the shots fired call on the Bathurst radio - and that they needed a medic - he was with then-Sgt. Ernie Boudreau, now the police chief.

"We heard 'shots fired, we're looking for a medic,'" DeSilva said. Ernie Boudreau left right away. DeSilva says he headed to the area with another officer.

They drove as quickly as they could in the unmarked car that didn't have lights. The other officer asked what help they could provide. They were asked to block Duke Street, north of the train station.

They've turned to photos of the Via Rail station and parking lot. Media don't have these photos, so I'm not quite sure exactly what they show.

He says they set up the roadblock, he asked a vehicle within the perimeter. There was already an ambulance on the scene.

Chiasson asks how police generally check for background on someone. DeSilva says they can use various police databases, such as PROS or Canadian Police Information Centre which could show if someone has a criminal record.

Chiasson turns back to the tips. What did they say?
"They were returning from Montreal with a load of drugs," DeSilva said, adding that it named two people.

Chiasson asks if he knows whether anyone in the unit did "any verification about Mr. Vienneau before leaving."
"I don't know," DeSilva says.
"What about Annick Basque?"
"I don't know."

Chiasson says DeSilva is the boss of the unit, you'd passed along the info and the members had gone. What was your understanding of what were they going to do?
"To investigate."
To do what?
"To investigate the Crime Stoppers tip," DeSilva says.

Asks if there was any kind of briefing, any kind of meeting?
Don't know.
Were they going there to arrest someone?
Someone could be arrested.
On what grounds?
Whatever grounds they find through an investigation.

Chiasson moves on. Asks if the unit still exists. DeSilva says no, there was a "strategic decision" to move some officers to another RCMP unit. Then the provincial funding ended.

Chiasson says the primary purpose of the unit was mainly intelligence. Was there an active component? DeSilva says if they had intell, they'd present it to a group of supervising officers from the various agencies that make up the unit.

One of those agencies would handle the "tactical" part should that be necessary.
With that, Chiasson ends his direct questioning. Short break before cross-examination.

Sorry for the lack of tweeting, I've been filing an update for the web story and radio. Will post more soon.

During cross-examination by TJ Burke, the lawyer for Mathieu Boudreau, DeSilva was asked a series of questions about use of force by a police officer.

“If I’m in a vehicle and I’m going to run you over at a traffic stop… how likely is it you’re going to pull a gun and shoot?”
“Likely," DeSilva said. It would depend on several factors.

This intel unit is small, that it's fair to say there's a high level of comradery?
Yes. One motto is that everyone goes home at night.
Situations where you believe your partner’s life is in danger, your continuation of force would lead you to use deadly force?
“It’s possible.”

Burke asks if it fair that if your partner was struck by a car and went under the wheel, you would use deadly force to stop it?
“It’s possible.”

Burke then turned to the Crime Stoppers tips.
Police officers have an obligation to investigate tips?
I agree, DeSilva says.

Was the tip credible?
In my mind, there was already information prior to this, DeSilva said. They had an informant who had talked about using the train to move drugs.
“It wasn’t a far-fetched tip.”

Montreal heavily involved in trafficking?
Yes a lot of files begin or lead to Montreal.
The Montreal aspect helped firm it up?
Somewhat

So was there a plan?
No, DeSilva says.
So it was really on the officers who took it upon themselves to investigate this fresh tip?
“Correct."

Burke asked whether DeSilva was aware that the Serious Incident Response Team from Nova Scotia had been called in to investigate the officer's conduct and that a use of force report had determined that Boudreau's shooting was justified.

"I was aware from another member telling me," DeSilva said. "I didn't see the report."

Burke asked whether the use of force Boudreau used that day was appropriate.
"Based on what you're telling me today, I would say it was fair," DeSilva said.

Here's the updated version of the story with DeSilva's testimony: cbc.ca/news/canada/ne…

There was supposed to be another police officer testifying today, but DeSilva is still on the stand.

Chiasson says he's done with his re-direct questioning. Now the arbitrator says "unfortunately we're not done yet," that he has questions.

What did the unit do?
It would gather intelligence, create a file of enough information to bring it to one of the partner agencies to act upon.

How's the work done?
Talk to informants, perform surveillance.
So that day - Jan 12 - it seemed to me there was going to be some interaction, if the tips were correct, with the person named in the tip.
"It's possible."

Your team went into the field with tactical support?
Yes, we would do that often.
"It wasn't abnormal for us to assist another unit," DeSilva said.
"I just don't get the difference," the arbitrator says.

"Everyone is going to the same spot." There's going to be some interaction. You've got a tip, you've got supporting units, you've got the photo.
Yes, possible something could happen.

DeSilva says until today, he did not know that Boudreau and Bulger were specially part of the unit through an agreement. His understanding on the day of the shooting was that they were still with the Bathurst drug unit.
"They would still do their job," DeSilva said.

This is distinction the arbitrator notes is important. This means the under his view the intel unit gave the tip to the Bathurst police drug unit, which is one of the agencies that could act on it.

The hearing is adjourned until Monday at 9:30 a.m.

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