Thread by @brandonjsmith5

We're back for Day Two of the Curtis Hill disciplinary hearing.

Here's a quick recap of day one: wfyi.org/news/articles/…

Or you can go through my whole thread of day one:

https://twitter.com/brandonjsmith5/status/1186263486327865344?s=20

Some stray thoughts before today's hearing gets underway:

Day One wasn't particularly revelatory for those of us who've been following this issue all along - we've heard or read most of the details the four women shared yesterday.

Day Two should see testimony from people we haven't heard from before and yield details we haven't gotten.

Day Two begins with testimony from Julius Winborn, who works for the House Democratic caucus.

Winborn was at AJs on the night of the alleged Curtis Hill incidents.

Winborn says he wasn't there for long and ordered one drink that he didn't finish.

Winborn says he saw Hill with Rep. Reardon. He says he saw Hill's hand rubbing Reardon's upper back.

He says he only saw Hill's hand on her upper back.

Winborn says he was with another staffer at the time and what they saw struck him as "odd"

Winborn says Curtis Hill did *not* seem impaired.

And that's it for Winborn's testimony. (A lot of the witnesses will probably be much briefer today)

The next witness is Adam Jones, who works for the Indiana Senate Democrat caucus.

Jones was at AJs, the Sine Die party, on the night in question.

Jones says some of the interns at AJs thought Hill was U.S. Rep. Andre Carson. Jones had to correct them.

Jones says later in the evening, Hill was "pretty friendly." He says Hill wasn't afraid to go up to people and "put his arm around folks."

Jones says he saw Hill with Reardon and saw Hill put his hand onto Reardon's back, sliding it down to the "top of her butt."

Jones says he's certain he saw Hill's hand slide down to the top of Reardon's butt.

Jones says he thought Hill looked like he "got caught." Jones says Reardon appeared to yell at him and Hill looked abashed.

Under cross examination, Jones says the Sine Die party is not an official event of state government, but is an informal gathering.

Jones agrees with Hill attorney Donald Lundberg that Hill was being "gregarious" and "friendly."

Lundberg also describes Hill as being like a politician working the room.

Lundberg asks if anyone else at the party was wearing a dress like Rep. Reardon's. Jones says no.

"It was noteworthy in that regard?" asks Lundberg. "Yes," says Jones.

Jones says he didn't see Hill's hand under Reardon's clothes or see him grab her butt.

Jones says he couldn't hear what Reardon said to Hill but she "looked unhappy."

Lundberg asks if Reardon shoved Hill away, Jones says she did not.

Lundberg asks if Jones thought about calling the police or speaking to the bar owner. Jones says he thought Reardon had handled it.

Jones is finished testifying.

The next witness is Brent Stinson, who also worked for the Indiana Senate Democrat caucus.

He now works for the Marion County Election Board.

Today is all about corroborating witnesses for the Disciplinary Commission.

Stinson was at AJs for the end of session party.

Stinson says he noticed Attorney General Hill at the party, which was notable because he says it was unusual to see a statewide elected official at a Sine Die party.

Stinson says Hill wasn't "hammered" but looked impaired.

Stinson says he spoke with Gabrielle (McLemore) Brock that night.

He says when he was outside waiting to go home, she "busted out of the bar." He says she was in tears.

Stinson says Brock told him Curtis Hill touched her while she was sitting at the bar and made her uncomfortable.

Stinson says he tried to comfort her before the car he called for arrived.

Stinson says he also saw Brock the next day, that she was upset.

Hill's attorneys, since yesterday's cross examinations, have focused a lot on how most people at the party dressed down, in more casual clothes (if they changed), while Rep. Reardon "dressed up" in a cocktail dress.

Voyles: "How about your friend Gabby, was she drinking pretty heavily that night?"

Stinson says no.

Voyles asks if she was impaired. Stinson says no.

Stinson says Gabby seemed upset that Hill touched her, as well as what other people in the room might perceive about that.

Stinson told Brock the next day that she should - when she felt able - speak to an attorney about the Hill incident or report it to "higher-ups"

Stinson is finished.

The next witness is Susan Preble, another staffer for the Indiana Senate Democrat caucus.

Preble says it was "literally like a record scratch" when Curtis Hill walked in. She says she's never seen a statewide elected official at a Sine Die party (she's been to several in her career).

Preble says it seemed like Hill "had a fair amount to drink." Says he was very "super friendly." And she remembers seeing him "dirty dancing" with a lobbyist on the dance floor (while no one else was really dancing)

Preble spoke to Brock the next day. Hill's attorneys object to Preble testifying about what Brock told her.

Disciplinary Commission attorney argues he's trying to establish the four women didn't conspire to "make up a story" by showing they talked to people about it soon after.

Hill's attorneys respond to Disciplinary Commission attorney by saying they're making no defense like the one he describes so far.

They object to Preble testifying about what Brock said as hearsay.

Hearing officer Myra Selby overrules the objection.

Preble says Brock told her that Hill rubbed her back without her consent. Preble describes her as "extremely upset," that Brock cried and says she tried to comfort Brock.

Preble describes Hill dancing with the lobbyist as consensual.

Preble also says Hill was "definitely impaired."

Twitter was down for a little while. Preble finished her testimony.

Now up is Indiana Senate Republican staffer Donna Smith.

Smith says at AJs, she watched Hill rub himself up against women when they would walk by him at the bar. She says she saw that happen four or five times.

Smith says Hill appeared to be intoxicated - he was swaying, not very physically stable.

Smith says she saw Hill "dirty dancing" with a lobbyist. She says she may have mistakenly told the Inspector General it was Rep. Reardon who was dancing with Hill.

Smith says the women who walked by Hill at the bar could have passed by without touching him if he hadn't stood up and leaned over.

Hill's attorney Jennifer Lukemeyer is probing the fact that Smith told the Inspector General that she wasn't sure if Hill was dancing with a lobbyist or Rep. Reardon.

Smith now says she's certain it was a lobbyist. She describes it as "aggressive" dancing, but consensual.

Lukemeyer: "You described Hill's behavior as flirty?"

Smith: "I believe I used the word 'predatory'"

Smith says she saw Hill rubbing Reardon's back.

Hill's attorneys are now asking about Rep. Reardon's dress again.

***Personal opinion time***

The level of questioning about Reardon's dress is starting to feel like victim blaming.

Smith's testimony is concluded.

We're now on to Zack Sand, who's an Indiana Senate GOP staffer.

Sand, who was at AJs, says he believes Hill was intoxicated.

He says he saw Hill do a shot of Fireball (whiskey).

Sand spoke with Niki DaSilva that night about Hill. He says he wouldn't describe her as upset or angry.

Sand is done.

Up now at the witness stand is Laura McCaffrey, a lobbyist for the Indiana Hospital Association.

McCaffrey was at AJs with other lobbyists.

She says she had three drinks - two vodka sodas and a Miller Lite.

McCaffrey noticed that Hill had his shirt unbuttoned "rather far down, exposing his chest."

She noticed he was "kind of fraternizing" with a bunch of women.

McCaffrey says Hill came up to her and 2 other women, put his arms around them, commented on their appearances.

She says it was uncomfortable. "It felt kind of creepy." One of the women "darted" away.

Hill had his hand on another woman's back. Describes Hill as "kind of touchy"

McCaffrey rode home with DaSilva. She says Niki also told her what happened with Hill almost immediately after it happened, at the bar.

McCaffrey says she didn't see what happened with DaSilva but DaSilva told her afterward that Hill had toucher her butt.

McCaffrey describes DaSilva as "shocked and uncomfortable."

McCaffrey has finished her testimony.

Now testifying is Allison Lucas (not sure on spelling), who was a Senate Democrat intern during the 2018 session.

We heard about Lucas during Gabrielle Brock's testimony yesterday; Brock went to AJ's with Lucas and spent some of the night with her.

Lucas says she saw Hill standing very close to Brock "in a way that made me feel weird."

She say Hill's hand move behind Brock, rubbing her back.

Lucas is person to whom Brock mouthed "Help" while Hill was touching her.

Lucas said "Hey, do you want to go to the bathroom?" as a way to get Brock out of the situation.

Lucas says Brock was "visibly upset," crying in bathroom. They left after that, was still crying outside

Lucas says she and Brock left because "this was no longer a good time."

Commission attorney asks if Brock could've just walked away from Hill.

Lucas: Physically yes, but there are a lot of implications in a situation like this.

Hill attorney Jennifer Lukemeyer is now trying to get Lucas to say that Brock was showing signs of being intoxicated, of having been drinking.

Lucas keeps saying that Brock did have two or three drinks.

Lukemeyer asks how long Hill rubbed Brock's back. A few seconds? Lukemeyer asks.

Lucas says yes.

Commission attorney asks if she timed it.

"No, I didn't have my stopwatch on me that day," Lucas says.

Lucas describes Brock's crying in the bathroom as "bawling."

Lucas is finished testifying.

After a short break, we expect to hear from Emily Crisler, who - according to LinkedIn - works for the Department of Local Government Finance and was previously a Deputy Attorney General under Hill.

After that, there will probably be a lunch break.

After today's lunch break, it sounds like Speaker Brian Bosma and former Senate President Pro Tem David Long will testify.

We're back from the short break.

Testifying now is Emily Crisler (currently at DLGF, previously worked as a Deputy Attorney General)

Crisler says she stopped work at the AG's office on July 13, 2018. That's just a few days after the allegations became public.

She says she "needed a change."

Crisler says in March of 2018 (when the alleged incidents took place), AG Chief of Staff Joan Blackwell was also the ethics officer for the office.

Crisler was not at AJs. The following morning she was having coffee with Natalie Fields, who got a call from Niki DaSilva.

Crisler says DaSilva was upset. Hill's attorney object, as hearsay. (Double hearsay, actually)

Commission attorney Seth Pruden says he's trying to establish that Hill found out about the allegations well before they became public.

Back to Crisler's testimony. She says she asked Joan Blackwell if Hill was at the Sine Die party. Blackwell said he wasn't, then later came back to inquire as to why Crisler asked.

Crisler told Blackwell about DaSilva's allegations that Hill touched her butt.

Hill attorney Lundberg points out that Crisler wasn't at the Sine Die party. She heard about what happened from Natalie (Fields) Russell, who also wasn't at the Sine Die party.

Crisler also says she doesn't know if Blackwell told Hill about the allegations.

Lunch break.

Back at 1pm.

Allow me to correct earlier tweets - one of the witnesses who testified is Allison Lukas (not Lucas).

My apologies.

We're back from lunch.

First up to testify in the second half of the day is Lenée Carroll, the Indiana Senate Democrat Chief of Staff.

Carroll says Curtis Hill greeted her at AJ's by asking, "Do you know who I am?"

Carroll says she noticed Hill's dancing - which she calls "unordinary for those type of parties" "handsy"

This is the dancing with the lobbyist. Carroll says it looked consensual.

Carroll says Sen. Jean Breaux (D-Indy) wanted to speak with Gabrielle Brock about the alleged incident.

Carroll says she was also in a meeting with Sen. David Long (R-Fort Wayne), Sen. Tim Lanane (D-Anderson) and Brock to discuss the incident.

Carroll says she was made aware that legislative leaders were bringing in an outside law firm (Taft) to do an investigation of the alleged incidents.

That's it for Carroll.

Next up is House Speaker Brian Bosma.

Bosma is discussing the end of the 2018 legislative session and why it was unusual.

He's largely blaming the Senate for why several bills died at session's end. (This is unimportant to this hearing, but fairly hilarious to those of us who covered the end of that session)

Bosma is discussing the meeting he had with Rep. Reardon in May 2018, along with Rep. Terry Goodin (D-Austin) and Rep. Earl Harris (D-East Chicago), in which Reardon recounted allegations of Hill's behavior.

Bosma says there was discussion about legislative staffers who also experienced unacceptable conduct.

Bosma says he went over to talk to then-Senate President Pro Tem David Long. He says he told Long they needed to talk. Long's response: "Is it about Curtis Hill?"

Bosma says he and Long decided to initiate an investigation into the allegations pretty quick.

That includes immediate interviews of the women and those they told.

Bosma says he would call legislative staffers employees of the House and the Senate, not of the state of Indiana.

Bosma says the young women didn't want to be interviewed by a man, so he had his Chief Counsel Jill Carnell and Caroline Spotts, the Clerk of the House, conduct the interviews.

Bosma says Reardon initially wanted to confront Hill, but later asked for confidentiality.

He says the young women wanted confidentiality.

Bosma says the decision was made to meet with the AG in July - not for a formal interview - to discuss the independent law firm's investigative report.

Bosma says before that planned July meeting to meet with Hill, word surfaced that the IndyStar had found out about the Taft report and was making inquiries.

Bosma: "Curtis Hill's a friend of mine. We haven't spoken in quite a while."

Bosma says he felt a duty to explain to Hill where legislative leaders were in their process. They had a conference call with Hill.

Bosma says on that conference call (between he, Hill and Sen. Long), he told Hill that they found his conduct "inappropriate" and "unacceptable."

He asked Hill not to attend legislative receptions and told Hill not to speak to any of the women.

Bosma says Hill was "shocked" about the subject matter of the phone call.

Bosma: "He said at least three or four times that he had a lot to drink that night."

Bosma says Hill denied touching anyone inappropriately.

Bosma says in the interviews of the four women, they didn't expect legislative leaders to do anything (they wanted them to, just didn't expect they would).

Bosma asked Hill if he wanted to relay anything to the women.

He says Hill said it was "troubling" and, to the extent anyone was offended, that he extended an apology to them.

Bosma says the plan with Sen. Long was to tell the four women about their conversation with Hill and to make sure they reported any contact from Hill to legislative leaders.

Bosma says he sat down with three House Democratic staffers to tell them Hill has said he didn't mean to offend anyone and apologized if he did.

He says the staffers all seemed pleased, satisfied at the outcome.

After learning the IndyStar had a copy of the confidential Taft memo, the four legislative caucus leaders met to discuss the leak of that memo.

Those four leaders met with Hill that afternoon to give him the press statement they prepared and tell him the Star had the memo.

Bosma says Hill and his people were "pissed" about the leaking of the memo.

Bosma says this convo with Hill was very different than previous conference call.

He says Hill's tone on the call was "apologetic." At the in-person meeting, he switched to "full-on, nothing happened."

Bosma says Hill asked for a copy of the Taft memo.

Bosma and Long said, despite the Star obtaining it, they wouldn't give it to him. Hill didn't like that.

Bosma says he shook Hill's hand, gave him a little hug and said "I am sorry about all this."

Bosma says Hill smiled and said, "We'll get through this."

Bosma says he doesn't believe he and the AG have spoken since.

Bosma says, through the Taft investigation, he believes he got the best information possible at the time.

Hill attorney Jim Voyles is having Bosma repeat much of what he said during the first round of questions from the Commission attorney.

Bosma says Reardon told him Curtis Hill "grabbed a handful of ass." He also says she told him Hill did it twice.

Bosma says the minority caucus leaders were concerned the "Republican bigwigs" would say "wink wink forget about it."

Bosma repeats that Hill initially told him and Long, several times, that he had too much to drink.

Asked about telling Reardon what Hill had said, Bosma describes her as a "colorful individual." He says she seemed satisfied but wished they could do more.

Voyles asks about the Taft memo's discussion about any obligation Bosma, Long and Lanane had as lawyers to report Hill's alleged conduct to the disciplinary commission.

The Taft memo said there was no obligation.

Bosma says he was reluctant to give the Taft memo to his Democratic counterpart. But he says Long had given a copy to the Senate Democrat leader, so Bosma gave it to the House Democrat leader.

Bosma says his whole goal through the process (prior to the allegations becoming public) was to "restore relationships."

While we have a brief recess, a quick timeline:

Monday, July 2 - IndyStar publishes Taft memo with allegations against Curtis Hill. Four legislative leaders issue statement saying the matter has been resolved to satisfaction of employees involved.

(cont'd)

Tuesday, July 3 - Gov. Holcomb applauds legislative leaders' response to situation. Sen. Lanane reverses course, calls on Hill to resign.

Thursday, July 5 - Holcomb, Bosma, Long call on Hill to resign. House Democratic Leader also calls on Hill to resign.

(cont'd)

Monday, July 9 - AG Curtis Hill has press conference to denounce allegations and deny everything. (He had previously made public statements to that effect)

In the meeting with AG Hill after the legislative leaders learned the Star had the Taft memo, Bosma says he told Hill he would try to find out who had leaked the memo.

Bosma discusses his dynamic with Sen. Long as "bad cop, good cop," with Bosma playing the former, Long the latter.

Bosma says in the meeting with Hill and his #2 Aaron Negangard, they complained that Hill was never interviewed for the Taft investigation.

Bosma says one of them (Hill or Negangard) said they would have to attack that investigation now.

Commission attorney Pruden asks if the hug and handshake between Bosma and Hill indicated that Bosma was taking sides.

Bosma says no and that he was more concerned about his employees.

Bosma's testimony is finished.

Commission attorney Seth Pruden says there might only be one more witness today. He also wants an attorney conference with hearing officer Selby.

Two more witnesses today, Pruden clarifies.

Former Senate President Pro Tem David Long is testifying now.

Long says Sen. Ryan Mishler (R-Bremen) first told him about the issue with Curtis Hill at AJ's, a couple months after it happened.

Niki DaSilva, one of the alleged victims, worked for Mishler.

Long says he suggested outside counsel be brought in to determine what the legislature could do with regard to Hill.

He says all four legislative caucus leaders made the decision to hire outside counsel.

Legislative Services Agency head George Angelone was the one who hired Taft.

Long says no instruction was given to Angelone as to which firm to hire or how the firm should conduct the investigation.

Much of Long's testimony reiterates/corroborates/lines up with what Bosma earlier testified to.

Long says when he discussed the incident with the Senate staffers (I believe that would be Brock and DaSilva), he says they were terrified, nervous, felt intimidated about the whole situation.

He says that's why the interviews weren't recorded.

Long says, on the June 29 phone call with Long, Bosma and Hill, the AG mentioned that he'd heard something a few days after Sine Die about his saying something about "showing some skin."

Long says he jotted down that Hill knows about this.

Long says he won't characterize how Hill felt about this whole thing on the phone call.

But he says Hill didn't deny the allegations or say they were false.

Long says Hill said three times on the phone call that he'd had too much to drink.

Long says at the in-person meeting with Curtis Hill on July 2, Hill was upset, wanted to see the Taft memo. (They refused.)

Long says Hill said "I'm going to have to defend myself."

Long describes Hill's demeanor as a more "defiant tenor" than on the June 29 phone call.

Long says he apologized to Niki DaSilva about the Taft memo becoming public and the whole incident becoming more public, risking her confidentiality.

Long says he had no reason to believe the four women had any "agenda" or "ulterior motive."

"I think they felt like this was going to be a black mark on their record...even though they hadn't done anything wrong."

Hill attorney James Voyles is now cross-examining Long.

Similar to the cross of Bosma, Voyles is having Long repeat much of what he's already testified to.

Long says the staffers (the women who accused Hill) were satisfied legislative leaders had done everything they could do on their behalf.

Long is getting a little irked that Voyles keeps interrupting him before he finishes answering these questions.

Hearing officer Selby gently chides both Long and Voyles not to speak over each other.

Long says he and Bosma independently investigated the leak of the Taft memo.

Long says he was confident the leak didn't come from the Senate.

After more microphone problems, Long jokes "You must've gotten this mic from the House of Representatives."

Long's testimony has finished.

There will be a short recess. The attorneys will meet privately with Selby to discuss a potential witness.

And then we will hear from one more witness today.

After a roughly 25-minute private meeting between the attorneys and the hearing officer, Selby comes back and says we're adjourned for the day.

Back tomorrow for Day 3 (and presumably the end of the Disciplinary Commission's witnesses)