Thread by @BBuchman_CNS

Nadler: is it correct that if you concluded POTUS committed the crime of obstruction, he could not publicly state that in his report or here today?
Mueller; The stmt would be that you would not indict because under OLC, a sitting president can't be indicted.

Is there a DOJ policy/principle which sets forth that an investigated person is not exonerated if evidence for criminal conduct is not conclusively determined? Republican Rep John Ratcliffe asks Mueller

Mueller says he can't point to a specific instance where this has happened before, begins by saying it's a unique situation, but Rep Ratcliffe interrupts him before he can fully answer.
"It was not the SPC job to conclusively determine Trump's innocence," Ratcliffe continues.

Because there is a presumption of innocence, prosecutors never need to conclusively determine it, Ratcliffe argues.

Ratcliffe claims Mueller violated DOJ policy/principle because he wrote a report about crimes that aren't charged. Vol. II was written in violation of "Every DOJ principle on extraprosecutorial commentary."

"Donald Trump is not above the law but he damn sure shouldn't be below the law which is where this report puts him," Ratcliffe says before dramatically dropping papers on the dais.

Rep Sheila Jackson Lee: "The president's pattern of conduct as a whole sheds light on the nature of the resident's acts and the inference that can be drawn from his intent. Does that mean you have to investigate all of his conduct to ascertain true motive?"
Mueller: No.

Even w/the evidence you did find, is it true, that a thorough FBI invstgn would uncover facts about campaign or POTUS personally? Did he understand it would give rise to concerns about crimes/ legal concerns? Is that relevant to potential obstruction of justice?
Mueller: Yes.

Rep James Sensenbrenner, R-Wisconsin now up. "Since under OLC you decided you couldn't prosecute a sitting president, why have all this invstgn of Trump that the other side is talking about when you knew you weren't going to prosecute him?

Mueller: You don't know where the investigation is going to lie and OLC opinion itself says you can continue an investigation even if you arent going to indict the president.
Sensenbrenner says: Well, if you're not going to indict, you're just fishing.

Sensenbr.: Is it true there is nothing in Vol 2 that says the POTUS may have engaged in impeachable conduct?
Mueller: We kept at the center of our invstgn our mandate. Our mandate does not go to other ways of addressing conduct. It goes to developing the report + turning into AG

Rep Steve Cohen is teasing out the details for soundbytes here and successfully. He asks about the origins of this statement by Trump as he begins questioning about obstruction. The Trump quote: "Oh my god this is terrible. This is the end of my presidency. I'm f--ked."

Mueller says he can't recall who originally copied the quote but Rep Cohen points to the report to refresh memory.
Cohen: Sessions said it & an aide had it notes turned over to SPC.

Cohen: Is the AG supposed to be the AG for the USA or consigliere to POTUS?
Mueller: To the United States of America.

For the uninitiated, a consigliere is an adviser to a crime boss.

Mueller is coolly brushing off questions about Fusion GPS from Rep Chabot. Chabot who wants to know about Glenn Simpson, the Steele Dossier. Chabot says by neglecting to mention Fusion etc, the report is "a 1-sided attack on POTUS."

"This is outside my purview," Mueller says.
These are being investigated by others, he says.

Rep Hank Johnson D-Ga. up. Trump dictated a press stmt saying he had no intention of firing Mueller before first reports surfaced saying Mueller was invstng for obstruction.

Then, next day, POTUS issued a series of tweets acknowledging the existence of the obstruc. investgn...And criticizing it. Isnt that correct?
Mueller: Generally so.
Then, Trump called Don McGahn 2 days later to talk about Mueller.

What was significant about that first weekend phone call that McGahn took from POTUS?
Mueller: I'll ask you to rely on the report.
Johnson: Well, it says POTUS called McGahn at home to have POTUS removed. Twice.

Johnson: On the first call, McGahn recalled being told by Trump, you gotta do this, you gotta call Rod [Rosenstein]
McGahn was perturbed by this? Johnson asks.
Mueller, continuing a theme of cautious phrasing, again refers to report for characterizations

DEVELOPING.
Holding firm to his findings Wednesday before the House Judiciary Committee, former special counsel Robert Mueller said the decision not to indict President Donald Trump was a deliberate one.
courthousenews.com/house-presses-…
#MuellerHearing
@CourthouseNews

Rep Louie Gohmert loses his cool during a line of questioning about the texts between Page and Stzrok, asks is obstruction requires a corrupt state of mind. Mueller clarifies, corrupt intent, yes. As Gohmert rails, voice cracking, he says of Trump:

"What he's doing is not obstructing justice. He's pursuing justice," Gohmert says.
Mueller is stoic and replies, "I take your question."
As Gohmert continues to rail, there is cross talk, gaveling, since he's run out of time. Mueller repeats: "I take your question."

When Mueller submitted his report to AG
Rep Roby: did he deliver a redacted version of the report so it could be released without delay?
Mueller wont engage in discussion about what happened after production of the report but acknowledges they worked on redacted vrsns together

Would an unredacted version of the report be released to Congress?
Mueller: Not in his purview.

Rep Karen Bass: Did POTUS go on TV and deny the McGahn story? He did, Trump called it "fake news." But the following day in response to the story about McGahn, rump's own atty called McGahn to ask that he put out a stmt denying he had been asked to fire SPC.

McGahn did refuse and as he told Mueller: "The Times story was accurate in reporting that the president wanted the special counsel removed."

Rep Karen Bass, D-Calif.: "So to be clear, POTUS was asking McGahn to create a record that was untrue while he was in the midst of an investigation?
Mueller: That is correct, yes.

Bass: On p. 116 of the report, POTUS met with McGahn in Oval Office, said the NYT story didnt look good and McGahn needed to correct it. He asked whether McGahn would do it, and McG. said no. Is that correct?
Mueller: Yes.

We are on a very short recess. Live-tweeting for the #MuellerHearing will resume momentarily.

We are back and we are back on questions about Don McGahn.
Rep Cedric Richmond, D-Louisiana - is it accurate to say the president asked McGahn to deny facts [about the NYT report]
Mueller: That is correct.

Richmond: So, again, POTUS was trying to force McGahn to say words McGahn believed would not be true?
Mueller: That's accurate.

Richmond: in other words, POTUS criticized his WH counsel for telling law enforcement officials what he believed to be the truth? Would it have been a crime if McGahn lied to you about president ordering Mueller fired?

In line w/his approach to refer back to the report, Mueller says he can't speculate on that.

Rep Matt Gaetz, R-Fla., accuses Mueller of being uninterested in prosecuting Steele.
Mueller: This issue is under investigation elsewhere in the Justice Department and consequently, its not within his purview. DOJ/FBI should be responsive to questions on this particular issue.

Gaetz has presented no questions about obstruction, instead focusing on Steele/Simpson etc, which Mueller has already said he cannot discuss, multiple times. A note: Gatez told NYT yesterday his goal with today's hearing: "We are going to re-elect the president."

Rep Hakeem Jeffries: Your invstgn found evidence that Trump knew he should not have made the calls to McGahn.
Mueller: Yes, that's accurate.

Jeffries makes the case of obstruction.
"The invstgn found substantial evidence that when POTUS ordered McGahn to fire SPC, Trump lied about it, did so to interrupt an official proceeding, and did so with corrupt intent. "

Jeffries: This is the USA. No one is above the law. The president must be held accountable one way or the other.
Mueller says he doesn't subscribe to the exact analysis on obstruction but notes, "It's not out of the ballpark."

Again, Mueller must be very careful here, He has to stick to the letter of the report. So him saying that he doesnt subscribe to this specific analysis by Jeffries is *not* him saying there was no obstruction. It's him being hyper-specific about what he has ALREADY said.

Rep Ken Buck, R-Co., can't understand why Mueller made a decision on indicting Russians who interfered and didn't indict Trump.
Mueller, again, says, OLC opinion bars him from indicting a sitting president.
Buck: But could you charge after he's left office?
Mueller: Yes.

Rep David Cicilline talking mtg in Oval office on June 19, 2017 (Vol 2, p. 91) between POTUS and Corey Lewandowski.
"What did POTUS tell Lewandowski to do? Did he ask him to dictate a message for Sessions and ask him to write it down? Correct?"
Mueller: True.

The msg directed Sessions to give a public speech saying he planned to meet with special prosecutor and say invstgn was unfair & to let special prosecutor only move forward with investigating election meddling in future elections.

Cicilline: So a private citizen was ordered to do this? (Lewandowski is the private citizen.)
Mueller: Correct
AG Sessions was recused from oversight, so if he were to comply with Trump, he would have violated DOJ rules?
Mueller says he won't get into that.

Cicilline: There is substantial evidence that indicates the president's efforts to limit the scope of the investigation was done to limit oversight of the campaign's conduct? True?
Mueller: yes.

Rep Ted Lieu, D-Calif. is up. He wants to focus on obstruction as applied to POTUS attempts to curtail SPC investigation.
P. 97, vol 2 of report: "Sessions was being instructed to tell SPC to end existing invsgtn into POTUS and his campaign."

Rep Lieu: That would be evidence of a destructive act because it would naturally obstruct he investigation?
Mueller: Correct.

The second element of obstruction requires a nexus to an official proceeding. Mueller wrote: By the time of meeting w/Lewandowski, the existence of a grand jury investigation was public knowledge. Does that constitute knowledge of nexus to an official proceeding?
Mueller: Yes.

Now to intent. "Substantial evidence indicates that the presidents effort to have Sessions limit the scope of special counsel investigation to future elections..." that proved intent? Mueller agrees, generally, yes, but refers back to the report for exacting findings.

Rep Jamie Raskin: SPC found evidence that Trump encouraged witnesses not to cooperate.
One of those witnesses was Michael Cohen, Trump's former personal atty.
After the FBI searched Cohen's home, POTUS called him up personally, told him to "hang in there" and "stay strong."

The report also found that people called Cohen to tell him how much "the boss" loves him and "has his back."
Cohen believed he had the support of the WH if he continued to stay on message and 'be part of the team."

Robert Costello, lawyer close to POTUS legal team said to Cohen: "You are loved...they are in our corner...sleep well tonight.... you have friends in high places

After Cohen's guilty plea, the tune toward his former personal atty changed.
He made the suggestion that Cohen fam members committed crimes and Mueller summarized the dynamic in his report:

"The evidence concerning this seq. of events could support inference that POTUS used inducements in form of positive msgs in an effort to get Cohen to cooperate & then turned to attacks/intimidation to deter the provision of info to undermine Cohen's credibility once cooperating.

Rep Debbie Lesko asks if AG Barr mischaracterized the report when he released his memo after Mueller turned it in. Mueller starts by saying: You're not mentioning that we issued a letter stating our issues with Barr's letter.
Lesko backs away from her aborted inquiry

Lesko claims the entire second volume of the Mueller report is little more than regurgitated news stories, takes issue with outlets like WaPo/NYT being cited more times than Fox News in the report.

Could it be that WaPo/NYT simply did more exhaustive reporting on this?

Rep Jayapal back to witness tampering. On p. 123, Vol 2, Mueller discusses POTUS motive on Manafort pardons.
Trump discussed w/aides whether and in what ways Manafort might be cooperating and whether he knew any info harmful to POTUS, Correct?
Mueller: Correct.

Manafort lied about a # of matters material to invstgn and Manafort's lawyers regularly briefed POTUS lawyers on topics discussed and info Manafort provided to SPC, Correct?
Mueller: Correct.

Rep Jayapal: Anyone else who did these things would be prosecuted for [obstruction]

I must update my story again briefly, must press pause on live-tweeting. I will resume shortly. @CourthouseNews

I'm back.

Republican Rep Mike Johnson of Louisiana offers the closing remarks for the minority, says the probe was costly (he does not mention Manafort assets paid for the entire probe and then some), says invetsigators donated to Clinton campaign, brings up the Stzrok/Page texts.

"The president believed from the very beginning you had conflicts...yet Trump cooperated fully," Johnson says. (He does not mention that Trump refused to sit for an interview)

Regret any typos in today's feed, folks. Not intentional.

Mueller confirms he never asked any of his investigators about their political affiliation before hiring. "The report was a result of agents and lawyers who were absolutely exemplary and were hired because they could get the job done well and efficiently."

Mueller said he would not speculate on whether public confusion could have been avoided had AG Barr released the exec summary of the report before he released his own memo.

Rep Madeleline Dean says for her part: Barrs memo did confuse the public and Trump capitalized on that confusion by being able to say "no collusion, no obstruction!" on Twitter right after

After 3hours + of testimony before the House Judiciary Committee, this hearing has ended. Now, at 12:45PM ET, House Intelligence will take over to ask Mueller about Vol. 1 of the report which focuses on Russian interference.

Informal poll. Curious to get a sense from followers - were you satisfied with the first half of former special counsel Robert Mueller's testimony? Select Yes or No and tell me why or why not in the comments.

Fla. Republican Rep Gaetz tells reporters gathered outside of the hearing room that he found Mueller to be intellectually dishonest, says that Dems thought today would be a catalyst for impeachment, says, instead it was a "death rattle for impeachment."

Rep Steve Cohen tells reporters that Mueller made it clear today: Trump was not exonerated. And Trump "lies when he says no collusion or obstruction." Acknowledges but for the policy of OLC, Trump would have been indicted.

Cohen also says, once Trump is out, he can be indicted but the statue of limitations will keep Trump from being indicted if he wins again in 2020. Calls Trump a "lawless" president.

Rep Jackson Lee tells reporters: Ask yourself if any other president dangled pardons, attempted to change narrative about the invstgn etc, would this be accepted? The strategy of Qs by Dems today was to solicit the truth. No altering or editing. Gave him his words and he said yes

Ted Lieu says "we have a felon right now in the White House" because Trump committed every element of obstruction as outlined in Mueller's report.
Lieu says today's hearing should have "blown the minds" of ppl who didn't read the report.

This story is updating. The latest version here:
courthousenews.com/house-presses-…

The second half of today's hearing will continue to be streamed online at: c-span.org/video/?462629-…
#MuellerHearing

Will today's hearing move Pelosi off her current position on waiting on impeachment? Rep Cicilline says the caucus will move forward with impeachment when everyone in the caucus agrees, all of the evidence has been presented, all of the information laid out soberly

Part 2 of today's #MuellerHearing starts shortly. Have we moved on from coffee to popcorn now? Or have you all been shoveling popcorn in your maws since 8:30?! 😉

I, as a person who covers congressional hearings all the time, really appreciated the speed and succinct nature of questions and answers today. #MuellerHearing

And the man of the hour is back. Mueller has resumed his seat and the House Intelligence Committee members are ready to go.

House Intel Comm chairman Adam Schiff begins with opening remarks. "Your report, for those who have taken the time to study it, is devastating."

Schiff: "Your investigation determined that the Trump campaign knew that a foreign power was intervening in our election and welcomed it, built Russian meddling into their strategy and used it."

Schiff: "Disloyalty to country. Those are strong words but how else are we to describe a campaign that did not turn away or shun the help from a foreign govt, but instead, encouraged it?"

Schiff: "This is also a story about money, greed and corruption and the leader of a campaign willing to compromise the nation's interest not only to win but to make money at the same time."

Trump and his team wanted more money for themselves and Russians wanted more money for themselves and their oligarchs, Schiff says.

The report also tells a story about lies, he says.
"Lies about a gleaming tower in Moscow, about the Kremlin and lies about efforts to fire Mueller, Comey, hush money payments, mtgs in the Seychelles to set up back channels, lies to the FBI, to this committee. Lies to obstruct."

Those who say POTUS fully exonerated, again, Schiff reminds, Mueller specifically states Trump is not exonerated.
"But worse than all the lies and greed is the disloyalty to country, for that too continues," Schiff says.

When Trump was asked if Russians intervene again what would he do? The essence of his answer, Schiff says, was: "Why not? Everyone does it. No Mr. President, they don't. Not in the America envisioned by Jefferson, Hamilton, Lincoln"

Rep Devin Nunes D-Calif delivering open remarks, says the investigation was a conspiracy theory cooked up and perpetrated by the media. Summarizes the information leaked to reporters from officials as being the result of "naive" reporters being fed bad information

Aaron Zebley, who had daily oversight of the probe, is seated next to Mueller. Schiff says they will both be available to answer Qs today and now they have been sworn in.

Nunes says its highly unusual for Zebley to be sworn in. Their side will not direct any Qs to him and Nunes says they have concern about his integrity.

Schifff: I'm sure you recognize there's an angry man down the street who doesn't want you here today, but as a private citizen, you are welcome to answer Qs as you so choose.

Mueller delivers his remarks now. He will speak about the potential impact of the investigation on counterintel matters. As explained in the report, special counsel regs gave him the role of a US atty; they looked for evidence for possible use of prosecution in federal crimes.

They did not reach counterintel conclusions, but they did set up processes that would pass counterintel to the FBI, he says.
SPC periodically briefed FBI on this info and notes there were agents of the FBI who weren't on SPC team but still helped disseminate info.

So, for these reasons, Qs about what has been done with counterintel info obtained - those Qs should be directed to the FBI.
"I am not making any judgments or offering opinions about the guilt or innocence of any pending case," Mueller says.

"Its unusual for a prosecutor to testify about a criminal investigation and given my role as a prosecutor, there's a reason why my testimony will be limited.. It could effect several ongoing matters," Mueller adds.

Mueller corrects testimony from this morning. Rep. Lieu said Mueller didn't charge pres. because of the OLC opinion. Mueller says now: "That is not the correct way to say it. As I say in report, 'we did not reach a determination as to whether the president committed a crime.'"

Were Trump campaign officials trying to make money from foreign countries during the campaign? (Manafort from Ukraine, Flynn from Turkey, to name a few)
Mueller: That is true.

Schiff: When Donald Trump called your investigation a witch hunt, that is not true?
Mueller: [nodding] I like to think so, yes.
Schiff: [For clarity] It was not a witch hunt?
Mueller responds that it was not.

You had a team of 19 lawyers, 40 agents and an unlimited budget? Nunes asks Mueller.
"I would not say we had an unlimited budget."

Rep Jim Himes, D-CT: FB estimated Russian fake images reached 126M ppl, asks: who did the Russian social media campaign intend to benefit? Clinton or Trump?
Mueller: Donald Trump. But there were instances where Clinton was subject to much the same behavior.

Himes: Is it possible that the sweeping/systematic effort by Russia actually had an effect on the U.S. election?
Mueller: Those issues are being investigated by other entities.
He would not speculate any further.

Rep Ratcliffe, R-Tx., asks what Mueller's authority is to add new conclusions to the report?
Mueller says he hasn't added anything new to the report today.

Ratcliffe asks about Steele dossier and how it impacted conclusion that Russia interfered?
Mueller, again, says he can't answer those Qs, its under DOJ purview

That June 9 2016 mtg. In an email chain between Trump Jr and Emin Agalarov, Agalarov says the "crown prosecutor of Russia offered to provide Trump campaign with docs and info that would "incriminate Hillary" and notes her dealings w/Russia could be very useful to your father."

Trump Jr: "If it is what you say, I love it. Especially later in the summer."
Then Jr. invited Kushner. Manafort to the June meeting.
Rep Terri Sewell, D-AL: Is this email an offer of illegal assistance?

Mueller: I cannot adopt that characterization.
Sewell: But isnt it illegal for someone on a campaign to accept foreign national contributions?
Mueller says generally yes, but this situation was unique.
He does not get into it further explanation.

Ohio Republican Michael Turner focuses on the power and authority Mueller has. His appointment gave him the same power as the AG. Mueller confirms this is correct.
Turner says, let's focus on the word exonerate.

While the report does not conclude POTUS committed a crime, it does not exonerate him, Turner says. Turner says Mueller agrees there is not a legal test for the word exonerate.

Turner asks: does the AG have the power to exonerate?
Mueller says he will pass on answering because it embroils him in a legal discussion he's not prepared to discuss today.

Turner: I guess the AG knows he cant exonerate either. Thats the part that confuses me because if AG doesnt have power to exonerate, then you dont have power and I believe he knows he doesnt have power to exonerate.

Turner continues: if you report is to the AG and AG doesnt have power to exonerate and he knows you dont have it, then you dont have to tell him, youre not exonerating. He knows this already.
Mueller: No, it is included in the report for that very reason. He may not know it.

Turner says he doesnt think Mueller put the line about exoneration in to help Barr.
Turner appears to be insinuating an impropriety here by Mueller but he never actually comes out and names it. His time to ask Qs runs out.

Rep Jackie Speier calls the Russia intervention in election "sinister," taking it a step further than the label Mueller gave it, "sweeping and systematic."
Was it not a hoax as some have characterized it, she asks Mueller says plainly: It was not a hoax.

Mueller continues: "The indictments we returned on certain ones were substantial. What we've underplayed here is that aspect of our investigation. It had and will have long term damage to the U.S. that we need to move quickly to address."

Insinuating corrupt investigators and leaks, Republican Rep Chris Stewart of Utah asks: Are you aware of anyone providing information to the CNN about the raid on Roger Stone's home?
Mueller says he can't speak to that.

Reporters were staking out. They were being reporters. It's sort of their job. Here's some background on that straight from CNN:
cnn.com/2019/01/25/pol…

Nunes is a Republican from California. My earlier tweet contained a typo that identified him as a Democrat from California.
I promise you, it is not a coded insult to anyone. It is just a typo. They happen, hard as I try not to make them. Regret the error.

We are on a brief recess and the #MuellerHearing will resume shortly.

And we are back.

Rep Eric Swalwell D- Calif, now up.
Let's go through the diff. ppl assoc. w/Trump campaign who lied to Mueller to cover up their conduct:
- Manafort, Stone, Gates, Flynn, Cohen, Papadopoulous
Mueller notes Stone is related to a different case rooted in DC, not SPC case

Was the invstgn hampered by Trump campaign officials use of encrypted apps? Mueller: We believe that to be the case.
Same with the deletion of messages, he says.

Rick Gates shared internal data with a person with ties to Russian intel at Manafort direction, Gates deleted those comms on a daily basis..
Mueller: if its int he report, then I support it. (See: vol. 1, pg. 36)

Other info was inaccessible because it was protected by atty-client privilege.
Swalwell: So that means Mueller doesnt know if Trump's private comm with Sekulow or Giuliani incl. pardon dangling etc.
Mueller said he can't discuss it.

Nor will he discuss if he wanted to subpoena/interview Trump Jr, Mueller says.
Swalwell: Why does it matter that the witnesses tell the truth?
Mueller: Because it goes to the heart of just about any criminal investigation you have.

Taking a quick break from live-tweeting to update my story. You can still watch the live stream here:

OK I'm back.

Rep Krishnamoorthi, D-IL, is laying out facts, a strategy that elicits an affirmative response from Mueller so people hear what was found, what was false and surrounding context. An example:

Krish.: Trump repeated 5x in one press conference, I have nothing to do w/Russia. Of course, Michael Cohen said Trump wasn't being truthful because this is when he was trying to build a tower in Moscow, right?
"Yes that's right," Mueller says.

Knowing/accepting foreign assistance for a campaign is a crime, Mueller affirms.
Schiff as he closes says: The standard of behavior for a pres. candidate shouldn't be a matter of whether something is or isnt criminal. There should be a higher standard.

Mueller agrees with Schiff when he Schiff asks if he thinks there should be a willingness to do more than merely avoid criminality.

Schiff closes by focusing on the power of blackmail/kompromat. He's driving the point home, that beyond criminality, the danger the U.S. is opened to when the president becomes the subject of someone's blackmail is significant.

Does Trump intend to build the tower in Moscow after he leaves office?
Mueller says he wont speculate.
Schiff: If Trump was concerned he might lose $ the first time, would he not be concerned about financial losses in 2020?
Mueller, again, will not speculate.

Schiff: "You did not tell us whether the president should be impeached, nor will we ask you. Whether we decide to impeach the president in the House or we do not, we must take any action necessary to protect the country while he is in office."

You would not tell us whether counterintel concerns still existed with current members of the Trump admin. So we must find out, Schiff says.
But 1 thing is clear: Russians massively intervened in 2016 and they are prepared to do so again in voting that begins just 8 months 2day

And with that, the #MuellerHearing is adjourned. I'll have a fully updated story for you coming up soon.
@CourthouseNews

@CourthouseNews UPDATED.
Roundly ignoring conspiracy-theory bait by Republicans, former special counsel Robert Mueller closed out his testimony before Congress with pointed criticism of President Donald Trump’s penchant for praising WikiLeaks.
courthousenews.com/house-presses-…
@CourthouseNews

@CourthouseNews The Trump 2020 campaign went on the defensive today, too. Current Trump campaign mgr Brad Parscale:
“Robert Mueller confirmed what we already knew: no collusion, no obstruction and the way President Trump has been treated is unprecedented."

Parscale also bemoaned that Mueller’s $25 million investigation cost taxpayers “tens of millions,” but omitted the profit that the probe saw in seizing $46 million worth of assets from former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort.