Thread by @sophie_r_allen

Having come back from holiday to repeated pestering from someone about the blog post 'Doing better in arguments about sex and gender', I think a response is required about why my co-authors and I are not too concerned about these criticisms. 1

https://twitter.com/kay314159/status/1161401396266176512

For those of you unfamiliar, the original post - written with @boodleoops, @janeclarejones, @mary_leng, @Docstockk and @H_L_Smith_ is here.

medium.com/@kathleenstock…

Charge 1: Our definition of 'female' is incoherent.
Response: we don't give a definition of 'female'. We say that some of us accept a cluster account. We list some of the properties which might be in that cluster. There is no definition, ergo no incoherent definition. 3

The list given of the female property cluster is illustrative, 'including' various properties. 'including' doesn't exclude properties not on the list. There are other workable accounts of female, some of which can be found in @H_L_Smith_'s article here: medium.com/@aytchellis/is… 4

Secondary characteristics could be included with primary ones, but hair & clothes have nothing to do with which biological sex someone is. This post conflates sex with gender (which we distinguish) and conflates how people are with how they're perceived. 5

https://twitter.com/kay314159/status/1158132836202942465

Just to clear it up: intersex people are either male or female. There is no 'overlap' between the sexes or third sex. But we prefer to defer to intersex advocates and developmental biologists including Claire Graham... 6
mrkhvoice.com
threader.app/thread/1013106…

Or LOCAH, or @FondOfBeetles. 7
medium.com/@radfemflareon…
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1044244…

'CAIS' is a technical term. So obviously there is no non-technical use of it. 🙄 As noted above, the listed characteristics are not exhaustive nor a definition. And note the caveat 'at least for most non-technical uses of the term'. This objection is not showing anything... 8

Nor is the claim that the 'definition' should classify some trans women as female because of women with CAIS. NB it's still not a definition & Kay has forgotten our caveat about CAIS already. She should read @H_L_Smith_'s article about changing sex if she hasn't already. 9

Moving on, we have an article about lesbian domestic violence cited to try to question our claims about the rates or male vs female violence. Even if we accept the stats as given, this says nothing about the rates of violence or sex assault between strangers in public places. 10

We have repeatedly deplored violence against trans people and this may require their own safe spaces. So the claim below is not a clear reading of our work. 11

But violence by males is not the responsibility of female people and an account of moral responsibility saying that is clearly ridiculous... 12

On her view, Prof Kay is responsible for the following assaults. (NB I don't think that she is but according to her own view, she is.) 13 bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan…

Or this: 14
scotsman.com/news-2-15012/f…

In short, we think maintaining female only spaces in accordance with current UK law (Equality Act 2010) (with 3rd spaces provided if needed) is the best way to go. It's just not true that this isn't an option: many places provide neutral toilets as well as male and female ones.15

So it is not a case of 'pushing non-passing trans women out of public spaces entirely'. Allowing biological males into female spaces results in females being pushed out of public spaces, so Kay's argument goes both ways. 16 thejc.com/news/uk-news/s…

But really I don't know why I'm responding to someone who claims that (on the basis that I campaign to maintain sex as a protected characteristic) I'm responsible for violence against trans women by men, so I'll leave this conversation here... 17

I do like this thread though.

https://twitter.com/DaveDavidDave_/status/1148274811824742402

(No, Prof Kay - I'll not be responding; unless you can give me a coherent, non-circular account of what a woman is if trans women are women. Still looking for one.) END