,
68 tweets,
11 min read
Read on Twitter
Privy Council Clerk Wernick begins by numerating all the ways he's worried about Canadian politics. He's worried about the tone of discourse, terms like treason and traitor thrown around. "I am worried that someone is going to be shot this year doing their political campaign."
"Most of all I worry about people losing faith in the institutions of government," he says.
Wernick says Canadians shouldn't be worried about the rule of law in this country. He says DPAs weren't slipped in quietly; there were consultations and considerations about why they exist.
Wernick says the Globe article contains inaccuracies and "in some cases is simply defamatory."
Lisa Raitt asks when he learned about DPP decision on SNC mediation. Wernick says he learned through a national newspaper ad. (SNC took out full pagers in October)
"They did make a pitch why they were a good candidate for a deferred prosecution agreement," Wernick said. "They were making the rounds with everybody in town," during September.
"I remember the conversation being their basic pitch which they made to everybody," he says. "I remember telling them in the firmest possible terms" that the decision was with the DPP, and that the AG had responsibilities, and that they should approach DPP.
Wernick said he will ask if notes exist, and if they do, he will table them with the committee.
Wernick says decision to overrule DPP on this was always AG's to make, and that the decision is still open (based on the law, which allows for AG to intervene). "There is a provision in the statute passed by this parliament," he says.
Raitt says she finds it odd that they would not mention the mediation situation to Wernick when they met with him. "It is highly unusual that you would be taking such a meeting with an individual company," Raitt says.
"I can tell you that the company asked for meetings with me several times," Wernick says, adding that he meets with a lot of people, companies. "The company is not a pariah, it has not been convicted. It is going to trial."
Liberal MP Randy Boissonnault notes Wernick's 37 years in public service over Lib and Tory gov'ts. He asks if it's appropriate for PM and PMO to talk to AG about an active case.
Wernick points committee to the open and accountable government rulebook, which spells this out.
Have you ever witnesses inappropriate pressure... to the former AG on the issue of remediation agreements or any other issue. "No," Wernick said. PM made it clear that it was AG's decision in every conversation and piece of writing on the matter, he says.
"She was always, always, the decider," Wernick says in French.
"There is a statutory legal forcefield" to protect independent prosecution in Canada, Wernick says. Cabinets of all governments are guided by doing the right thing the right way, and exceptions to that are always detected, "corrected, and punished," he says.
Wernick encourages everyone to participate in the ethics commissioner's probe, who has powers of a superior court judge.
Rankin asking about the letter Wernick sent to SNC-Lavalin in December, which Wernick says instructed them to discuss the matter with the AG. The letter is being distributed. We will try to get it too.
"I do not see where the former attorney general was a solicitor. The matter was never discussed at cabinet, ever," Wernick said. He adds that she wasn't giving legal advice to PM. Wernick believes SC privilege doesn't apply to this.
"If you boil it down for Canadians as to what is going on here," Wernick says, "we are discussing lawful advocacy that the minister take a lawful decision which in the end she did not take."
Wernick says he doesn't see how a separate inquiry in parallel with ethics commissioner probe would shed any additional light on the matter.
Liberal MP Ehsassi, says "speaking of media speculation," he draws attention to Globe story that broke the controversy. Asked about report that Wernick gave former AG a "private rebuke" over the matter. Wernick says that's not true.
"That is from an anonymous source about a conversation which would have been between me and the minister. I'm telling you it did not happen," he says.
Ehsassi about Wernick's "detected and corrected" comment. Wernick says he's referring to mechanisms to safeguard governance, such as PBO, auditor general, officers and agents of parliament holding executive to account, etc.
"Canadians should feel assured that they live in a democracy under the rule of law."
Wernick says anyone following American politics "if you can stand it" will see discussions about prosecutors, pressure on attorney generals. "Canadians need to be assured that their police and investigators... operate independently," he says.
The DPP said in writing last week, there is not in this case or any case interference in prosecutions. Giving Canadians are "languishing" in Chinese detention, it is "imperative" that Canadians know our system is independent.
Wernick says there is clearly potential job loss and economic impact in the SNC-Lavalin case. "There are consequences for the decision to prosecute or not prosecute, to go to a remediation agreement or not," he says.
"In my observation and my experience, they have always conducted themselves to the highest standards of integrity," Wernick says, of Trudeau's PMO.
Wernick says a DPA is a binding agreement that is court supervised and can be revoked; essentially an "alternative punishment deal," he says.
Wernick says SNC would have been the first time a DPA was used in Canada. "Each of your parties in communicating with Canadians in an election campaign," can argue whether DPA should exist. But they are attempt to protect "innocent people" from corporate offences, he says.
Asked about whether pressure is subjective, Wernick says he's not sure communications can ever be entirely objective. "I predict that the former attorney general will express concern to this committee about three events."
Meeting with PM, meeting on Dec. 18, and meeting with Wernick on Dec. 19. He says he believes they were appropriate and lawful, and prepared to submit to ethics commissioner on that.
Cooper asks Wernick to table letter from SNC CEO to Trudeau in October; Wernick says yes.
Wernicks says priorities of gov't in September were "Nafta, Nafta, Nafta, Nafta, and Nafta." He took it upon himself to keep gov't files moving. One of those files was Indigenous.
Sorry... Indigenous Reconciliation.
In Sept. 17 meeting with PM and AG, PM told her the decision was the AG's to make, on SNC Lavalin. Wernick says he told the company the next day was the only route they had was through their lawyers and the court process.
In Sept. 17 meeting with PM and AG, PM told her the decision was the AG's to make, on SNC Lavalin. Wernick says he told the company the next day was the only route they had was through their lawyers and the court process.
Wernick goes through entire chronology with SNC-Lavalin. Email requests for meeting in May 2017, didn't take meeting. REquest in August 2017, no meeting. Took the meeting on Sept. 18, which he took. Ran into executives at a gala, and left with his wife when they saw them.
Wernick says former AG told the PM that she didn't think a DPA was the right avenue, and that she had no intention of intervening. But the overall meeting was actually about the Indigenous rights framework, Wernick said.
Wernick said he learned @Puglaas was being shuffled in January. In December, he had a lunch with the PM about planning and there was no talk about a shuffle. "It is Mr. Brison's walk in the snow that triggered the cabinet shuffle."
Colin Fraser, Liberal MP, going over three meetings Wernick mentioned (which he thinks @Puglaas will raise concerns about). September meeting was with AG, PM and Wernick on issues of Indigenous rights framework, and "very serious" policy disagreements btw members of cabinet
Wernick says he believes @Puglaas will say there was some meeting on Dec. 18, but he wasn't there. On the 19th, he called her to check in on SNC-Lavalin and other things, he said. "In getting ready for January."
He asked her whether DPA was still an option. He said colleagues and PM were "quite anxious" about news about the company moving or closing in the business press. Wernick said he informed the minister of context.
"There was no inappropriate pressure put on the minister at any time," Wernick said. If she felt back then, that there was pressure, she could have called ethics commissioner. She could have contacted Trudeau. "Any time, any day." He's available 24/7 by switchboard.
"There were multiple, multiple, multiple occasions where the minister could have" raised concerns with Trudeau, Wernick said. He adds that documents are being preserved and should be available for ethics commissioner if needed in the investigation.
Conservative MP asks for clarification of when cabinet learned the DPP wouldn't offer a DPA. Wernick says he doesn't know but can try to find out.
Pierre Paul-Hus asks if it's possible there were discussions Wernick doesn't know about. If there were, @Puglaas can confirm next week, Wernick says.
Wernick says the PCO didn't give Trudeau advice that makes him think there is solicitor-client privilege over this matter. He says he believes the former AG is the one that told him there is.
Conservative MP Barrett asks for documents related this to be tabled to committee, but Wernick says he will only give documents to the ethics commissioner who is investigating.
Rankin says it's possible Wernick can't conclude there was no inappropriate pressure, because some meetings or conversations might have happened without his knowledge. "She is anxious to speak her truth," Rankin says. "We need to hear from her."
"How can you not acknowledge she might have felt a tad of pressure," given that she was shuffled from cabinet?
Wernick says she accepted her new role in Veterans' Affairs. She had every opp. to indicate she felt pressure, he says.
Wernick says she accepted her new role in Veterans' Affairs. She had every opp. to indicate she felt pressure, he says.
Wernick says @Puglaas also didn't raise concerns after the shuffle, with the PM or him at the retreat in Sherbrooke.
Raitt asks for more time, asks him to stay for another hour. They're taking 5 to figure this out.
They agreed for another 24 minutes of questions. Raitt goes first.
She asks about the chronology of Wernick's interactions with SNC-Lavalin, and conversations with @Puglaas and @JustinTrudeau on the issue.
He says there was a cabinet discussion about DPAs in the spring of 2018. SNC's case would have come up as a relevant example. "There was never, never, never a cabinet discussion about the prosecution," he says.
Wernick also says that @DavidLametti left the room when @Puglaas came to address cabinet this week. Wernick says Canadians should know he recused himself.
Wernick says he would have had interactions with @Puglaas on reconciliation. Trudeau is "unwavering and relentless" to make progress there, and he was concerned they were losing momentum on the rights framework.
Wernick says there were different views in cabinet on this issue. Wernick was asked to step in an mediate, while others in PMO were preoccupied with NAFTA. On Minister Carolyn Bennett, he says she deserves better than treatment from "social media trolls."
Wernick says @Puglaas was deeply involved in Indigenous rights framework. That was the purpose of the Sept. 17 meeting with Wernick, Trudeau and JWR, when SNC-Lavalin came up, he says.
On his concerns about faith in government, Wernick says Canadians have independent courts, police, checks and balances. "It's a precious gift and it is under threat around the world," he says.
He says partisan politics is entirely appropriate, "but when that debate starts to cause Canadians to lose faith in their institutions, I worry we are on the slippery slope to what we see south of the border."
"There are appropriate conversations to have with the attorney general in this matter," Wernick says.
"I am quite sure the minister felt pressure to get it right," Wernick says. Part of Dec. 19 convo was "conveying context" of consequences on workers and suppliers, he says. "Not consequences for her."
On SC privilege, Wernick says "she can come here next week and answer your questions with her sense of where to draw the line."
Asked about a public inquiry, Wernick says "I don't see how it's an upgrade" over ethics commissioner's investigation. "Why do you need another instrument?"
Public inquiries get "lawyered up" and they're not always the right instrument. This case is about whether a minister felt inappropriate pressure, and ethics commissioner can get to the bottom of that quickly, Wernick says.
Wernick says "it's not a small thing" that all lobbying contacts between SNC and gov't were posted publicly. "What Canadians need to know is that despite a massive gov't relations effort... they didn't get what they wanted. If it's a movie, it's a flop."
