Thread by @shayshinecastle

Hey, guys, it's Tuesday and council chambers are PACKED! I got turfed out of my normal seat. I think a lot of these folks are here for the vaping rules being considered, which include a higher age limit, flavor ban and a tax. Read about that here: boulderbeat.news/2019/07/19/bou…

Also on the agenda tonight: A check-in on CU South, an update on online petitioning (it's still not happening quickly) and a council discussion of use tables and the opportunity zone moratorium.

They won't be deciding anything tonight, nor is there a public hearing. Both those things will happen Aug. 27.

I predict we're going to be a bit late in starting given the crowd and level of noise. I also don't see @samlounz anywhere. Did you find a seat??

@samlounz Reminder: Since this is a special meeting, there is no open comment. But the vaping discussion includes a public hearing (as does one on marijuana retail regulation, which I don't know anything about, so I'm not covering it.)

@samlounz A hush has fallen over the crowd. Council members are trickling in behind the dais. I think we're getting ready to begin.

@samlounz 71 public speakers for the vaping public hearing. Holy crap.

@samlounz Given this reality, council may be bumping opportunity zones discussion from tonight's agenda. As-is (without all the vaping speakers) this meeting is scheduled until 11 p.m.

@samlounz 71 speakers would take roughly 2.5 hours to get through, Jones said.

@samlounz OK, use tables is bumped. That discussion will now happen with the public hearing, which has apparently been moved to Sept. 3.

@samlounz Moving right into the vaping discussion. Here's the staff presentation. www-static.bouldercolorado.gov/docs/2A_Tobacc…

Carr did it, so it's kinda boring.

Though informative.

Reminder of why we're doing this: High rates of teen vaping in BVSD. Colorado has the highest rate of teen vaping in the U.S., and BVSD has an even higher rate. 26% of kids use e-cigs in Colorado vs 13% in U.S. 33% in BVSD.

Only 51% of HS students think vaping is dangerous, vs. 88% who know that traditional cigarettes are.

This data is from the 2017 Healthy Kids Colorado survey.

Apparently, if you try any substance before age 14, you're more likely to get addicted, this lady whose name I've already forgotten is saying. I'm sorry; there's a guy in front of me falling asleep on @samlounz's shoulder so it's distracting me.

@samlounz Oh brother, we've got ppl dropping already and it's 11 min in.

@samlounz Lots of anger in the audience at what was just said: That delaying use of e-cigs to age 21 would reduce addiction rates by 95%

@samlounz I think she's basing this on a state included in staff notes to council: 95% of adult smokers started before age 21.

@samlounz I'm not sure those two things can be directly connected. Also, there wasn't a source listed with that stat in the council packet that I remember seeing.

@samlounz But, in a 2015 report, the Institute of Medicine found that “raising the age for tobacco sales to 21 would have a substantial effect on public health and save lives”

17 states, 500 local jurisdictions have raised smoking age to 21

@samlounz A non-statistic argument for raising the age limit is that it will reduce access to teens; middle and high school students aren’t going to be in the same social circles as people over 21, the reasoning goes.

@samlounz Something I didn't know until researching this: Federal law bans the manufacturing and sale of flavored cigarettes.
Candy and fruit-flavored cigarettes, specifically, were banned in 2009 by The Federal Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act (Tobacco Control Act).

@samlounz Menthol is exempted. “Mentholated and flavored products can be “starter” products for youth who begin using tobacco and these products help establish tobacco habits that can lead to long-term addiction” (Staff notes)

The memo references “at least one study” that found the majority of tobacco users started with mint-flavored products and ⅔ who transitioned to daily tobacco product use started first with mint flavor (no reference or source material was provided for that).

Flavored e-cigs are not banned by Colorado or the feds. They come in a lot of flavors banned for traditional cigarettes, including candies and fruit.

Most young smokers got started with a flavored product. Per staff notes: “Mentholated and flavored products can be 'starter' products for youth who begin using tobacco and these products help establish tobacco habits that can lead to long-term addiction.”

We're moving on to discussion of the tax. Two options before council: Ordinance 8342: Tax up to 40% of purchase price on tobacco products other than cigarettes
Ordinance 8341: Also taxes cigarettes at 15c each or $3 per 20-pack

Here's why council is considering this: Price is a big deterrent for young smokers. A study by Dr. Jidong Huang and Dr. Frank Chaloupka found that a “10 percent increase in disposable e-cigarette price would reduce sales by 12 percent ...

...and a 10 percent increase in reusable e-cigarette price would reduce its sales by about 19 percent”

Colorado does tax cigarettes, but at a much lower rate than other states: We have the 39th lowest in the nation, according to the staff presentation.

Bc Boulder doesn't have its own cigarette tax, it shares in that state revenue. It WILL lose that if it starts taxing cigarettes and MIGHT (but probably not) lose it if it starts taxing e-cigs.

Staff doesn't think taxing e-cigs will result in loss of that revenue, bc the state doesn't tax e-cigs.

2018 revenue from this source was $290,000.

City Attorney Tom Carr is going over the ordinances now. Raising the age limit to 21, banning flavors (including menthol) and the tax proposals. Voters will still have to OK those; council will just vote to put them on the ballot.

Carr: Council asked me to listen to the biz community and came back with what I heard.

Here is what was in the packet:

Businesses concerned this will apply to flavored cigars, which kids don’t use
An amendment has been drafted to exempt these

Biz owners suggested:
Requiring a photo ID for any and all tobacco purchases; banning possession of tobacco products by youth; limiting the number of e-cigs and refills a person can purchase in 24 hrs
Amendment drafted for these suggestions

There are only 2 vape shops in Boulder; the city met with both of them. One said 96% of sales were from flavored products. Both businesses said the ban would shut them down.

The owner of a local gas station chain (Shortstop, I think?) said 36% of their revenue was now from tobacco products.

Liquor stores are scared, too: Since grocery stores started selling beer, they have been adding tobacco products to compensate for lost sales.

An amendment has been drafted to prohibit e-cig sales to establishments that only admit people over the age of 21, a la the marijuana industry. So it would apply to vape shops and liquor stores, but not gas stations.

Another biz, Electronic Tobacconist, contacted city to say that their online-only sales have a multi-step age verification and so they should be exempted. An amendment has been drafted for that, too.

Q from Brockett: How would that work?
Carr: Ordinance language says you have to present a Photo ID. This co. has someone enter DOB, address, age. That is verified by a third-party or providing last four of the SSN, or by scanning the gov't ID.

There are ways around this: a kid could use their parent's info or ID. But still, the package would be shipped to the house where the kid's parents *theoretically* live.

So, much harder than to walk down to the corner gas station. Still possible to be gamed.

Q from Carlisle: How long has vaping been going on as a business?
Carr: It's taken off in the last few years, but Boulder Vape House has been here for, I think, 8 years
Someone yells from the audience: 6 (years)

"So relatively recently, in terms of all of this?" Carlisle says.

RE: the proposed tax on cigs and e-cigs. Avon, Aspen and Basalt all have this, at $3 per pack for cigarettes (Basalt is $2) and 40% of sales price for e-cigs. Aspen's increases at 10c per year.

Jones: Has anyone else just taxed e-cigarettes?
Carr: Not in Colorado.

Aspen was first (Nov. 2017). It bought in $463,622 in revenue, compared to their state share of $63,556.85 in 2017.
Avon (implemented in late 2018): $92,175 in revenue in Q1 of 2019. Compared to their share of state cig tax in 2017: $38,812.33.

Basalt brought in $175,567.52 in Q2 and 3 of 2018, but they collected more than voters approved (required via TABOR) so they had to stop. Their 2017 share of state e-cig tax was $15,676.45.

A word on TABOR: It requires the city to estimate how much revenue the tax will generate in the ballot language put to voters.
Staff estimates $6M to $7M for the ordinance that would tax tobacco products including cigarettes

$2.4M for the ordinance that would tax tobacco products excluding cigarettes

“These estimates are probably high,” staff notes.

Any revenue collected above and beyond the OK’d amount would have to be returned to those it was collected from, or voters would have to OK keeping it. That’s what happened with the soda tax in the last election.
dailycamera.com/2018/11/07/bou…

Q from Nagle: Is there anything going on at the state level with this? How would we handle that.

IT'S IN YOUR PACKET, NAGLE!!

In fact, here's what the packet said on that:

Because the state might consider a tax on e-cigs next legislative session (Gov. Polis suggested one last session, but the session ended before the Legislature considered it) the ballot measure with *authorize* the tax but not *implement* it.

Council could implement it with an ordinance, which would be repealed or amended after a state (or county) tax.

Remember, voters would still have to OK giving the city AUTHORITY to do a tax. There's a high likelihood of that, Carr says.

Dude in front of me has stopped sleeping on @samlounz's shoulder and has switched to his other neighbor.

@samlounz We're talking a bit about the sugar sweetened beverage tax now and how it applies in this situation.

@samlounz One thing that hasn't been brought up yet: Taxes on cigarettes have long been considered taxes on the poor, since they tend to be the ones who smoke. itep.org/cigarette-taxe…

Cigarettes are currently exempted from sales tax in the city, Carr says in response to a q from Yates.

Back to the regressive nature of cigarette taxes: I'm not sure how that applies to e-cigs, bc I don't know if the general income of vape users is higher than or the same as that of cigarette smokers, or not. I'll do some research.

Morzel asks what the penalty for selling to minors would be. Carr suggests having the power to suspend and revoke business licenses, as they do with liquor and marijuana.

Young asks about enforcement.
Carr: "There are checks being done; they're done by the FDA, not our police. I hope we can use the same sort of regime we do for alcohol and marijuana in the future, and supplement that enforcement."

Carr also said the majority of businesses in Boulder had not violated that FDA enforcement. "Four pages" of an Xcel spreadsheet of businesses without violations; one page for the violators.

Trying to extrapolate how much $$ Boulder would make from an e-cig tax. Our share of the state's revenue is higher than Aspen, Avon and Basalt combined, so our tax revenue would likely be "multitudes higher," Carr says. But "it's hard to predict these things."

RE: Enforcement. Carr says "the FDA does a good job. I think we can supplement that."

Young q: Is there any data on revenue vs. % of nicotine in products?
Carr: E-cigs have significantly more nicotine per pack, I believe.

Much grumbling and head shaking from the audience.

Morzel: Are there different concentrations of nicotine in these products? So one brand of pod = 20 cigs, and another is equal to 6 cigs?
Carr: Some vaping products don't have nicotine at all.

Carr and Morzel were talking about marijuana and vaping devices. Didn't catch *exactly* what she said but the audience was not happy. Someone near me said, "Where are we?!?" (punctuation is, obviously, my own addition to convey tone)

Interesting... council will not pass the ordinances tonight. They can't: there has to be 10 days between introduction and passage. Tonight is just the public hearing and deliberation, plus giving direction to staff. Passing the ordinance will happen Aug. 20.

We're moving to public hearing.

71 speakers! I haven't seen this many since maybe the assault weapons ban. Or some housing stuff, probably.

Joelle Rossback, founding member of Advocates for Clean Teens, thanks council for "recognizing this as an important public health" issue. "This is a community issue; not solely a parent issue, a school issue or medical issue."

" We all have responsibility to protect our youth" from the dangers of lifelong addiction. "We are seeing serious mental and physical health impacts."

Asks for passing of these ordinances "not weak ordinances with loopholes that do nothing but make it look like we care about our youth."

Eddie Hartnett, AD at Boulder High School, also thanks council for considering the vaping ordinance. "We see vaping happening everywhere on campus."

Hartnett is the first to go over his time. We don't take too Kindly to that around here, sir.

Q from Morzel: What are the consequences when you find kids vaping on campus?
Hartnett: We do community service, suspensions and education on how it could be impacting their lives.

Morzel: Do you see changes from that?
Hartnett gives a long-winded "too early to say but probably not."

"I don't see us curbing it, bc every year our (# of) penalties go up."

Robert Murphy is here for the teeth! "Vaping is incredibly dangerous" for dental health, apparently (but not too surprising, when you think about it).

He is a dentist and says he's gone to funerals for patients who have been killed by tobacco products. "I don't want to go to funerals for kids who start vaping now."

Jennifer Carl *shocked* that her kids started vaping. Says they are coughing up blood. Yeesh.

Menthol needs to be banned bc they are the most popular among young smokers, she said. "Those making profits off the addicts are trying to win. City council has an obligation to consider us this time."

Ginger Tanner, who owns Boulder Vapor House, is speaking. Thanks councilwoman Young for visiting the business.

She spoke at the last meeting to say how rigorously they enforce the "don't sell to minors" policy. No one under 18 is allowed in; IDs are checked and/or scanned; employees trained.

They also don't disclose prices over the phone, bc this helps weed out kids...? or something.

Council will love this: They also do a recycling program for the batteries, coils and empty cartridges for e-cigs and refills.

Council has some qs for Tanner.
Yates: What % of sales are menthol?
Tanner: 19% are mint or menthol; 73% are flavored e-cig liquid.

Also addresses q on nicotine levels: One Juul pod is about a pack of cigs; you can get them in different mg amounts; most popular is 3mg

(I hope I heard that right. Any followers who vape, please feel free to correct.)

Tanner, answering another q, says her employees flag ppl who buy a lot of products at once. They monitor the customer's profile and shopping history and, if they seem suspicious, they stop selling to them.

Jones: What's your age profile?
Tanner: Last time we did data export, couple months ago, our ratio was 50:50 of ppl over 21 and 18-21.

But she's willing to raise the age limit to 21. "It's something we need to do."

"About 14,000 freshmen and sophomores (at CU) are coming in," she says.

Jones: What % of your sales are Juul?
Tanner: It's dropped drastically in the last year. We see ppl going into lower levels of nicotine and getting off Juul.

(I really hope I'm spelling that right.)

Sean Tanner is the first speaker wearing a fedora-esque hat, though I see a couple others in the audience.
Mark your bingo cards.

He's taking us on a journey of his move from California, time in the entertainment industry, etc. Tanner, get to your point! You and your hat are running out of time.

OK, now we're getting to it. He's Ginger's husband and co-owns Boulder Vapor House. "I didn't open this store to get kids addicted. We don't sell to minors."

OK, back off track again, talking about reporting homeless ppl and CU kids to the police...? For what, I'm not sure.

Tanner and his hat go over their time.

Allen Wentworth from the American Lung Association is here.

"I think it's very important we raise the age to 21."

Wants to ban flavors, too. "In those flavors are heavy metals. They're not just to make things flavorful; there's harmful chemicals in and above what there would be if there weren't flavors in there."

He says the flavors are obviously for kids. "Who wants Unicorn Milk? It's gonna be kids."

I might like some Unicorn Milk. Not to vape. Gross. But maybe as like, a drink?

Wentworth is talking about particulate matter in vapes. Audience is upset again.

Eric Heydorn from the American Cancer Society is here, supporting these regulations. "The overwhelming majority of these e-cig flavors are fruit, candy or mint. Flavors play a major role in the high rate of youth use."

Says 97% of teens who use e-cigs, their first time is a flavor.

He is the second person to bring up that tobacco use is higher among youth, LGBTQ and ethnic minorities.

We are 90 min in to the meeting and on Speaker #7. SEVEN!!!

64 to go.

Caroline Gray: 21 y.o. age limit makes sense "18 year old are in too close contact with high school students." But if the issue is underage smoking, "why is a cigarette tax being considered? It hurts adult smokers like myself."

Gray works at Shortstop. Young asks what her ID methods are.
"I ID pretty much everyone. Unless you are obviously older, I ID you."

Nancy Koinblum asks that menthol not be exempted from the flavor ban. FDA data shows that majority of youth e-cig users consume menthol and mint flavors.

SOMEONE JUST HAD TO STEP OVER THE DUDE WHO IS SLEEPING IN THE ROW IN FRONT OF ME BC HE WOULDN'T WAKE UP!

At least this meeting is entertaining me.

I feel like everyone who is sitting bored to death or literally falling asleep in this meeting should go to my Patreon right now and pay me for sitting here every week. Now do you see what I do for you??

I missed most of Stephanie Faren's testimony while I was being clever with my tweets. She's from BVSD and is for all the vaping regulations.

We're No. 1 in teen vape use; we should be No. 1 in something else, she says.

Elizabeth Prentiss is for all the regulations, too. "We have to make a major impact." She's refuting all the counter-arguments one by one.

As for biz impacts, she is not concerned: FDA has not regulated these products, and "retailers have known since 2009 these products could be pulled from the shelves at any time."

I didn't know this, but speaker Barb Appel did: SF banned e-cigs until FDA decides to regulate them. This was in late June. cnn.com/2019/06/25/hea…

Mary Szarmach from Smoker Friendly, a Boulder-based co., is speaking now.

She supports the higher age limit.

April Pratt says if she had a teen today, she's be concerned with vaping. But the solution is to sell them only at age-restricted stores like hers, Smoker Friendly.

Terry Gallagher is not in favor of a flavor ban. He's from Smoker Friendly as well.

"Take a look at what the retail businesses have suggested. As elected officials, you not only represent the residents of Boulder, but all the businesses here, too."

Avani Digler, a substance abuse counselor, says she sees addiction issues around vaping with teens. "I've never seen rapid development of addiction to nicotine as what I'm seeing in my office these days."

People have "no idea" how much nicotine they are ingesting, and how quickly. Quitting smoking "was the hardest battle of my life," she said.

"I literally work with kids who say they cannot function without ingesting nicotine from vaping."

Part of the reason kids say it's so hard to quit is that *everyone* around them is doing it, Dilger says. (I think I may have misspelled that as Digler earlier.)

Dilger also goes over. Practically everyone is, tonight. Get it together, people.

Samuel Tomatz is referencing an original book he wrote, called The Puff, inspired by teen vaping.

Morzel: "When are you going to release The Puff?"
Much laughter from audience (and me).

Jones asks what he thinks of the online verification that the Electronic Tobacconist says they do.
The multi-step process *should* help reduce teens buying it, but many online stores are much easier to buy from.

Young asks him if, during his research for The Puff, he came across anything on how many teens buy in retail vs. online.
He doesn't know; "I didn't research statistics," he said.

Aiden Gruidel, an "older sister" to a high school student and a middle school student, is talking about how use has increased since she graduated. Even kids with "very involved" parents are vaping. "It almost seems uncontrollable."

We have our first bandana!

Alex Risinger references an anti-smoking presentation he got in high school. It included a clip from The Flinstones with the characters smoking. "I feel like that's the same (marketing to kids) as these flavors are."

"The biggest problem we have in our school is not bullying, not crime, but ppl going into the bathrooms and vaping."

Q from Jones: What is the most prevalent way students are getting vapes?
Risinger: "I don't have a whole lot of experience with that, but the 33% (of users at BVSD) that's not including the ppl who aren't reporting it bc they're too afraid to come out."

Art Way is OK with everything being considered, but not including menthol and mint flavors in the ban. "You're talking about traditional adult use flavors; (it) will create an immediate black market that will eventually have to bring police into the situation."

We've heard about vaping as a health issue in the African American community, he says. Police brutality is a public health issue, too, in the African American community.

Also encourages council to listen to adult smokers who say vaping helped them quit cigarettes and/or cut down on smoking, even though there's not much data to support that and it's not an approved method.
"If they say it's helping them, we need to respect that."

Brian Fojtik is a new Colorado resident, but this is the second Boulder city council meeting he's been to.

Brian, there are better things to do in Colorado. Get out there, man.

He represents the National Association of Tobacco Outlets.

I *think* he was mostly in support of what council is considering, except for a mint and menthol flavor ban.

Eric Grimes from Lolita's is here. LOVE that place!

Lolita's does not do any cigarette or tobacco advertising "to respect the wishes of this community", though they get approached all the time by the companies to do so.

"All these people who are coming into town are going to buy their products elsewhere. At that point, what are we doing besides running off revenue?"

Not in favor of a tax. Cigarette sales make up 30% of Lolita's revenue.

That was e-cigs, specifically, I believe. The revenue is basically two full-time staffers at $15/hr, or raises for ppl, he says.

Joshua Lee Sprague is from a trade group for vaping retailers.

We're on speaker No. 25 of 71, btw.

"There are ways to keep these out of the hands of children, but restricting sales to adult-only facilities is not the way," Sprague says.

Noah Leuer, also with some vaping companies. "Does the youth issue mean we need to take hard-working, honest small businesses out of business?" Also says adults will revert to traditional cigarettes if they can't have vape flavors.

Combustible cigarettes, is how he referred to them. I like that; gonna use it.

Most sales to minors are not at vape shops, but gas stations. "I wish (they) would take this more seriously," Leuer says.

Craig Holmes, a regional manager/director for Circle K, is speaking. He's OK with a 21 yo age limit and mandatory age verification.

Against a tax, too, as unreasonable
Jones asks what his idea of "reasonable" is.
Holmes: 40% is a little high.

Circle K in this region does "shops" every month (where they pay a company to come in and make sure tobacco isn't being sold to minors). They have a 99% pass rate; the only fail was in Longmont, not Boulder.

Chris Roller, with the American Heart Association, in favor of tough regulations. "I know you would have never started down this path if it weren't for the blatant marketing" to children.

Niko Pappas likens this e-cig issue to the concern over teen marijuana use. Yet Colorado legalized marijuana.

His point is that underage possession/consumption of pot or booze is punishable by law; maybe this should be, too. OK with 21 age limit, but not flavor ban.

Dylan Sylvest uses nicotine to help his hypermania. Asks that flavors not be banned, "I honestly don't know what I would switch to, but it wouldn't be healthy for me."

But OK with 21 age limit.

Dude next to me has been sighing *heavily* since this meeting started. Not sure why; he's been scrolling through Instagram and has his AirPods in listening to something. What's stressing him out? Sitting??

Monica Vondruska, who sells vaping and tobacco products, is speaking against the tax. It shouldn't be put on cigarettes bc it burdens the poor, but if you put it only on e-cigs, ppl will switch to cheaper combustible cigarettes.

Her clients use flavored vaping to quit cigarettes. They don't want the traditional cigarette flavor "to remind them of the product that shackled them for decades."

Vondruska may be a *manufacturer* of e-cigarette products as well. "I've seen the FDA three times this year in my facilities. They have spent full days and half days" checking out everything.

Even her tobacco-flavored vape juice wouldn't be allowed under the ban bc she puts cinnamon in it to mimic a "more robust tobacco."

Karen Herz: "My husband and I are responsible parents. Vaping caught us and our medical providers completely by surprise."

Her family is lucky, she says: they have the resources to fight their kids' addiction. Many don't, she says.

She is reading from her daughter's journal: "I want to vape bad ... It made me forget how stupid and hard it is ... I feel like it was my main key to friendships and like I have no friends now. It tasted good. Felt cool in my mouth, throat."

Sean Walter, another vaping industry rep, is here. OK with limiting sale of flavored vape products to age-restricted facilities. "A flavor ban is, at its core, a full e-cig ban."

Sarah Walter, vaping industry rep: "I'm so confused that Boulder, a city I think of as health-conscious" would ban flavors that help adults transition away from combustible cigarettes. "We all enjoy flavored drinks."

She just connected teen vaping with participation trophies.

That was not on my Bingo card.

Why should adults have to pay for the actions or in-actions of parents? she says.

Shawn Hills, another vape shop owner in Boulder County, talking about her customer Bob The Builder who switched to vaping after 40 years as a combustible cigarette smoker.

"If you ask me, should I vape or smoke, I say vape. If you ask me, vape or nothing, I say nothing."

Bob The Builder has switched to zero-nicotine vaping but keeps doing it bc he "needs the hand-to-mouth" motion and habit for social situations.

Naomi Amaha Gollnick is saying that penalties on youth for smoking is not effective, and they are not levied equally. Young people of color are more likely to be penalized.

The penalties should be put on the companies that profit from the sale of tobacco products.

Kiera Hatton Sena, a vaping industry rep, says they track the life of their products, and often, kids are getting them from parents.

She asks for a robust stakeholder process. Hey, we love those here!

Forgot this, but we're more than halfway through the speakers!

Nicole Nemer quit combustible cigarettes after 30 years by switching to flavored e-cigs. "I couldn't do tobacco-flavored anything now. I couldn't even finish one cigarette today."

She owns vape shops (not in Boulder).

Never: "We don't carry flavors with inappropriate labels" like with "teddy bears and things like that."

Also says kids need to be held responsible for vaping underage. As a parent, "I don't think it's totally their fault, but it's irresponsible not to hold them responsible at all."

Jodi L. Radke: "This is not only a vaping problem; it's a tobacco problem." Thinks all the suggested regulations should apply to every tobacco product.

Many speakers that signed up are not here. The crowd is definitely smaller than when we started three hours ago.

AND THE DUDE IN FRONT OF ME HAS BEEN SLEEPING THE WHOLE TIME! HE'S STILL SLEEPING.

"Nobody has ever said it's easy raising teenagers," she says. "They get into things, and it's our job to call them out on it."

I'm getting tired of tweeting every speaker. I'm still keeping track of yays/nays on regulations, tho.

Dara Binegar, 21, started smoking at 15. Gas stations and convenience stores didn't ID. When she switched to vaping, she bought online. She tried to go to Boulder Vapor House, but they wouldn't let her in. She tried to get an older person to buy for her; they kicked them out, too

"It's been a year since I smoked my last pack of cigarettes, largely with the help of Boulder Vapor House."

Sarah Duty, another smoke shop owner. "I do believe some changes need to be made," but this process seems rushed and heavy-handed. The onus is on the parents to educate their kids.

"Your kids are going to be pressured with much worse drugs than e-cigarettes." Teen drinking is a problem "but we don't seem to be banning flavored alcohol."

"I applaud that we've had a string of retail owners coming down here willing to give up money by raising the age limit to 21," Ronnie Robinson says. "I never thought I'd see that."

He's a retailer of these products as well.

"We call the police department" when kids try to buy tobacco products, Robinson says. "We don't get a response."

Gregory Conley at leasts apologizes for going over his time. Good on ya, Greg!

Robert (Bud) South: I personally don't think you have an addiction until you've been smoking 4, 10, 20 years.

His shop is called Bud's House of Vape. LOVE IT!

Bud's getting heated with his testimony.

Reema Wahdan, a cancer researcher, is calling into question the data that has been presented tonight. Here's a paper she wrote: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/P… Nothing to do with tobacco or e-cigs, but she's saying they are safer.

"Please at least pause this until you get the full picture."

Brian Priester, one of the few non-industry folks speaking tonight against the proposed regulations. He's OK with the higher age limit, though, as many have been.

You know, this was a good experience tonight to see and hear from some people who vape and realize they're not all douchey young white guys with questionable taste in fashion.

Heavy Sigh Guy has finally tapped out. Goodbye, Heavy Sigh Guy. We hardly knew 'ye, but it was still too long.

Helen Cross, from Nederland HS: "I know there have been no long-term studies (on the health effects of vaping) but I can see it in my friends."

Meagan Figgins, also from Nederland HS, says kids in her school can legally purchase e-cigs; older kids buy them and then sell them to younger kids. That's why use is so rampant. They aren't old enough to get pot or booze, so that's not as widespread.

Figgins is the social media manager for a group doing anti-vaping campaigns. And she's here at city council, 3.5 hours in. FIGGINS 2040!

Elysia Nitsch, 16, says half her class vapes. The flavors are definitely a factor, she says. Everyone talks about what flavors they like, etc. "Middle-schoolers are witnessing things they should not be witnessing ... in school settings."

Yates q: What are the most popular flavors?
Nitsch: Mint, mango, bubble gum, pina colada. Idk how a bubble gum vape is not targeted toward youth.

Forget FIGGINS 2040, put all these girls on the ballot. President, VP and Secretary of State, right here.

Colleen Krueger is saying vaping will lead to marijuana, dabbing, then opioids.

Idk about e-cigs, but I'm fairly confident the gateway drug theory has been debunked. I could be wrong, though. Happy to be corrected.

"Yes, of course, flavored products are more appealing," Thomas Price Kirby says. "They're appealing to adults as well as kids."

Under this logic, city should ban flavored alcohol, too. Thinks education, rather than a flavor ban, is the way to go.

Bruce Gibson is the co-owner of the online e-cig seller referenced in staff notes.

I think his British accent is throwing the council off. It makes everything sound so much more reasonable, even though it's nothing particularly great.

Defending his business: "This is process that uses gov't databases and fully trained staff."

"In any industry, there are good and bad players. We believe we are one of the good ones."

Lori Call from the Chamber is speaking. They're OK with the age limit, but not the tax.
Q from Yates: Would you support a statewide tax?
Call: I think that would be better. We'd ask that a city tax sunset if there was a state one passed later.

Karin Susskin from Boulder Medical Center says the board there unanimously agreed on these e-cig regulations. "I've been working for a long time, and I've never seen this kind of addiction sweep the youth that come into my office."

It increases and worsens asthma, Susskin says. She's a family medicine practitioner. "This is early on; we didn't even know about tobacco impacts until 20, 30 years after the fact" with combustible cigarettes.

"Education is one piece, but it's certainly not enough. Parents are one piece, but it's not enough. We need a whole nation to stand up."

Supports flavor ban and higher age limit.

Says the level of addiction is "shocking."

10 p.m. and we have reached the end of the public hearing. Woot!

But if you thought we were done... you were wrong. Still have council discussion and feedback.

I'm sorry; I'm drifting a bit. Just listening, not tweeting. I'll let you know when something important happens.

Like this: Would it be possible to ban advertising on social media? Young asks.

Someone should tell her it's not just advertising; it's kids posting pictures and videos of themselves vaping.

This discussion item was originally scheduled for 90 minutes.

It's been four hours.

Nagle: "I don't want to slap kids with misdemeanors, but at some age, you have to learn this is your choice" and there are consequences to your actions. What kind of community service or education could we do instead?

Carr says we do this with alcohol and marijuana infractions. "Our goal is to not have someone end up with a criminal record."

"This issue is different for me bc we don't deal with such young kids" in court.

Under 18... "I'm not sure you want them held responsible in the same way," Carr says.

He wants to have the community work on issues of how to handle kids caught underage vaping. Not something we should rush, he says, bc there are unintended consequences.

Council in agreement on some of the amendments: exempting cigarettes, cigars, little cigars, moist snuff and chewing tobacco from the flavor ban
Require age verification, online and in stores

The city will move toward licensing businesses who sell e-cigs. But they need a way to pay for it... so what taxes do they do?

Carlisle suggests doing taxes on all tobacco products, including cigarettes. "Other communities have done it, there's parity."

Young suggests running the taxes through the equity lens to see how they might impact racial and ethnic minorities.

Brockett: What I've heard from the community is that we have a teen vaping epidemic. That's why we are moving quickly.

Anything on cigarettes should take a bit longer: more research, outreach.

Yates: With Brockett. State needs to increase our cigarette tax; they're working on that. So Boulder should wait for the state. If that fails, "we can revisit that." Focus should be on e-cigs.

Carlisle: I was struck by speakers exonerating the e-cigs as an alternative to cigarette addiction, as if that is not still a big issue for this nation. "Big Tobacco is very similar to the NRA and assault weapons."

Boulder is progressive, Carlisle says, we should do things the are progressive like recognizing these health issues and taxing them appropriately.

Nagle: Why aren't Denver and other big cities working on this?
Carr: A lot of ppl working on this: Denver, Broomfield, Carbondale. Not a lot of ppl have the ability to turn quickly and place things on the ballot.

Carlisle: Boulder was one of the first to pass indoor smoking ban.

"I am really torn," Jones says.

"My opinion is, this is moving quickly, but you know what... some things move quickly. Aside from that we might need more process ... there's nothing good about cigarettes. We're 39th. There's nothing positive about that, but I'm cognizant that we haven't had much process."

Carr reminds them that they're just putting the ballot to voters; the next council would decide what the actual tax would be, if voters approve it.

Young brings up the point that places with high cigarette taxes have black markets, and it's predominantly people of color selling those.

Morzel: My mom died 44 years ago today from cigarette smoking. There's nothing good about cigarettes. But I do want to make sure we don't create a black market.

Nagle: I'm split, too. A part of me wants to say, let's leave cigarettes alone in an effort to negotiate a little bit.

Young: I'm more where (Morzel) is. Put it on the ballot and let the next council decide, after more process.

Brockett: Can we include language in the ballot measure that would specify this is a maximum? And not imminent?
Carr: Yes

Brockett: I'm not wedded to cigarettes as anything positive, but I'm concerned about process. This was about e-cigarettes.

Brockett: We didn't hear from a whole lot of tobacco vendors tonight, which tells me we didn't do a good job of letting ppl know there might be a tobacco tax.

Crap, that was Yates. Sorry!

Yates: The more you add, the more ppl have to vote against. Wants to break vaping tax up from the rest of tobacco products.

OK, Carr is going to come back with two ballot measures, one for a cigarette tax, one for a vaping tax.

Amounts on those are TBD, I think.

Brockett suggests that tax go toward education and cessation campaigns and resources. Council agrees; that will be in the ballot measure.

Now: Flavor ban!

Carlisle starts: She wants to ban everything, including mint and menthol.

Morzel: Flavors help ppl "get more distant" from tobacco. Not interested in a flavor ban, but wants to restrict sale of them to only places that admit 21+ patrons.

Nagle: "I came into this thinking I wanted to do a full flavor ban, but it's hard to hear" from ppl who have used them to quit smoking combustible cigarettes.

Asks about grandfathering.

Young agrees with Morzel about not banning flavors, but keeping them to 21+ retailers.

Talking about Juul in particular. They have 70% market share, staff says.
They seem to be a big part of the problem, Young says.
We can't ban a brand, Jones says.
cnbc.com/2018/07/02/juu…

Carlisle: "We (should) take the lead rather than allowing another addictive commerce to flourish in the city."

Jones: "I do think we need to knock down some of the flavors. Adults don't need bubble gum; there's going to be leakage to get back to kids at some point."

Nagle: Is there a way to let shops have mint or menthol or flavors, and if they sell to an underage kid, they lose the ability to sell flavors?

Carr says that would fly.

Gotta say, Nagle is actually impressing me tonight. Clearly showing that she's listening, evolving on the issues and considering multiple viewpoints.

Plus she is speaking way more than usual.

Brockett: I don't think we need bubble gum. But cucumber? Idk.

Yates: I think where we're heading is leaving some flavors, like mint and menthol, behind for stores that admit only 21+. We can come back in a year if kids are still getting them.

(and change it) was the end of that thought.

We're talking kid penalties for underage possession/consumption.

Jones: I say for now, we leave that be. First we stop the pipeline.

That's the end of this nearly 5-hour hearing.

Dude in the next row is STILL SLEEPING!

This guy has gotten more sleep during this meeting than I got all last night.

If you could please unroll, @threadreaderapp. Thank you!