Welcome to this week's live tweet of Hestia! Following our discussion last week on translating Ovid's rape scenes This week, we read Liz Gloyn's 2013 article "Reading Rape in Ovid’s Metamorphoses : A Test-Case Lesson" (CW 106:4). CW: rape, sexual assault
This week's discussion is led by @rympasco. Gloyn's article is unique in that it is a case study of teaching translations of two Ovidian rape scenes - Proserpina and Philomela/Procne. All in all, a great way to look at some #teachancient methods.
@ala_Camillae brings up concerns about an example given in Gloyn's article of a student disclosing information about their own personal experience with sexual assault. Does this cross a line into a title IX issue?
@i_nurmi suggests that the incident in question was so far in the past that it falls beyond our responsibilities as mandatory reporters; not an incident being uniquely disclosed in the classroom, but rather something the student has already reported/processed?
@rympasco asks whether it's a good idea to create a space where students will disclose these things. A cohort further asks what our responsibility is there--this is an issue we did touch on briefly last week
@ala_Camillae suggests that instructors separate/distinguish between students' personal experiences that effect their reading vs. trauma that effects their reading.
The methods Gloyn outlines for these discussions, particularly giving students questions before discussion in order to prepare as well as concluding questions at the end, are all very useful.
@ala_Camillae particularly likes the use of "legalese" in the classroom, bringing in relevant legislature (in this case, NJ laws on rape) to connect the students to contemporary issues.
@rympasco asks if this case study had us reflect on our own methods/experiences teaching. A cohort says that the *timing* of the case study was particularly intriguing to her--Gloyn suggests going into these issues when students feel comfortable with each other, but not during...
...exam periods or paper assignments. @i_nurmi is enthusiastic about both the assertion before discussion of the expectation that students be respectful and adult when treating these subjects; also, the comparison of translations
There is a lot of value in comparing the way these scenes are translated and asking students to dig into language choices and how that effects whether we read these as "rape" scenes or not, or how clear that reading is for students. @i_nurmi @ala_Camillae
@i_nurmi there are plenty of cases in Ovid and elsewhere wherein the way you translate a story is going to change the manner in which you read it, down to the power dynamic between the characters.
@Brododaktylos points out that students finding translations on their own will often arrive at public domain translations, which can be not only outdated but will impose language choices on students that they might not even be familiar with
@i_nurmi points out that a lot of students have grown up with these characters/stories and might have strong fan feelings about those characters
@rympasco says that the way Gloyn unpacks modern associations and the presuppositions you bring to a text very well; it's valuable to take stock of those things so that students can read things more critically.
@i_nurmi briefly returns to the "legalese" and remarks the importance of Gloyn bringing in ancient laws as well, e.g. the lex julia. @ala_Camillae says that there's a risk in bringing too much ancient law in, so you need to be sure to focus on clear examples, something Gloyn does
@duxfeminafacti9 likes the way Gloyn asks students to look at the perspective from which the story is being told; further, @Brododaktylos finds the question of what Ovid writes vs. what Ovid thinks to be incredibly valuable.
@Brododaktylos says that it can be really difficult to be blunt up front with students about what will be on the table in a course, and respects/appreciates Gloyn's ability to set that out at the beginning of class.
@ala_Camillae finds a lot of difficulty with the idea of reacting to/treating situations wherein a student might tread into rape apologist territory. These situations could potentially illicit discomfort from you, the instructor, on a very visceral level.
@ala_Camillae thinks a deeper discussion on how to process your own discomfort, let alone the potential for something a student says to be triggering, would be incredibly valuable. How do you sustain a conversation when you don't know how to react to a student's comments?
@rympasco has concerns that this case study could belie some of the difficulties that would actually happen in your own classroom; in particular this issue of a student saying something potentially triggering (someone "asking for it," e.g.)
@ala_Camillae points out that the concept of trigger warnings is still fairly recent and is still a topic of much discussion among instructors; @i_nurmi returns to Gloyn's discussion of "red herring" arguments, suggesting that a deeper discussion of this is important.
Cohort returns to the statement "she was asking for it," says that he imagines the conversation happening mostly between the students--other students shutting down that statement rather than immediately stepping in.
We return to the issue of towing the line between letting a conversation happen naturally, letting students explore things critically, not policing students statements, but also stepping in when that discussion shows potential to get out of hand or nasty.
@Brododaktylos envisions a much more hands-on moderation of that discussion, stepping in and asking for other students' reactions rather than letting them happen naturally--suggests a distinction between those situations would be useful to observe
We discuss the fact that Gloyn sees more participation from male students overall, and much more than expected.
@rympasco says this article reminds him of the importance of pedagogical education in general; we should be better about going out and reading the material available to us rather than thinking we have to invent it on our own.
@rympasco points out that Gloyn not only shares her own experience doing research before conducting the class, but also includes that which she found most useful in the sources of her case study.
@ala_Camillae remarks on just how much research went into this one discussion, how much work and effort goes into anticipating the difficulties that might happen during such a delicate and difficult discussion.
@i_nurmi appreciates that Gloyn considers how to gauge the importance of these difficult topics re: the actual material of the class, and how much time to spend in that class on these topics
Cohort suggests that it could be really helpful to do a practice class--set up a workshop like this and then present it to the rest of the cohort and get feedback. Only maybe a 10 minute lesson etc.
@rympasco suggests another variation on this idea--bringing a topic and materials in, and then collaborating as a group to create a lesson plan for that topic.
@rympasco asks us, in the position as TFs and often working for another professor, how do we talk about these issues within our capacity? What do you do about discussing in small discussion sections vs. introducing these topics to a large lecture course (100 students+)
@Brododaktylos suggests reaching out to the professor for whom you're working whenever possible; @i_nurmi shares experiences with receiving the syllabus ahead of time and being asked to share concerns, which was really helpful.
@Brododaktylos poses the hypothetical of not understanding a syllabus, and thus not being able to deal with students' pushback against that syllabus; @rympasco suggests that most professors will be appreciative/receptive if you inform them of general student complaints/concerns
@i_nurmi also points out that it really depends on the nature of the pushback--if it's a matter of comprehension vs. a matter of preference/likes and dislikes; you have to investigate what the pushback is and then assess what to do from there.
@i_nurmi what do you do if the professor isn't receptive? Suggests erring on the side of the student, depending on the size of the class. A student's ability to access the professor is going to seem much smaller in a large lecture, so you are their advocate.
A cohort asks what our responsibility will be when those of us who have not yet been a TF are leading discussion sections for large lecture courses; basically, at BU, it depends on what the professor wants you to do! Usually, you have some freedom with what to do w/ the material.
We can be put in a delicate position when navigating the desires of our students as well as the desires of the professor for whom we work--it's a case-by-case issue, and putting forward generalizations neglects to see the subtleties and vacillations of that relationship.
often, @ala_Camillae, your best tool is your fellow grad-student! We do a lot of work to support each other and offer suggestions/methods/ideas on how to deal with problems that come up or issues we want to raise. Seeing a fellow grad student's opinion can really help you...
...navigate what to do next and where to turn. Your advisor can also be a really helpful tool. Cohort says it's been incredibly helpful to share ideas and gauge grad student reactions, has gone mostly to grad students overall.
@mercury_witch your fellow grad students are absolutely your biggest asset, and chances are whatever issue you're having re: teaching (or anything else!) is one a fellow TF has had. You can, and should, try to share your frustrations, dilemmas, and victories with your cohort...
...whenever you can. And sharing these things with your fellow grad students can also help tackle the issue of imposter syndrome. None of us came in as perfect TFs, and we all get better as we go along. Collaboration and commiseration are crucial. @mercury_witch
@mercury_witch finds talking to fellow grad students imperative; wishes she'd done it as soon as she got to grad school. @ala_Camillae coming in to grad school there were concerns about feeling competitive--letting fear of that go and turning to collaboration = huge improvement
@Brododaktylos we are actually lucky that our department is so non-competitive and we have a really supportive faculty to turn to. But it's still HARD, and it's still relative to your own feelings day-to-day, because grad school is hard.
@ala_Camillae often your cohort will have a closer perspective to what your life looks like and what you're dealing with than anyone else. You should not feel like you have to keep your head down and push forward.
@i_nurmi we all have some experience with feeling pressure to "power through" things that are immensely incapacitating. Knowing that we all go through experiences with that can help make you feel more comfortable talking about it.
To return, after a big detour, to Gloyn's article--@ala_Camillae really likes Gloyn's discussion of using Blackboard and having students respond *before* a discussion happens, so that you know what you're going into and can guide the discussion through what you know your students
...are already thinking about and working through on their own. @Brododaktylos says: technology is our friend! @ala_Camillae also points out that these things create accessibility for students who, e.g., might not be as comfortable speaking in class
@rympasco and @ala_Camillae also really appreciate the idea Gloyn puts forward about asking for regular feedback from students. @i_nurmi gives an example of another professor who would give feedback forms after exams for students to turn in.
our takeaways:
@mercury_witch teaching is really hard!
@rympasco especially because if you teach poorly, you actually risk doing harm to your students. #teachancient #donoharm
@mercury_witch teaching is really hard!
@rympasco especially because if you teach poorly, you actually risk doing harm to your students. #teachancient #donoharm
Thank you all for following along, and we'll see you next Thursday! This live tweet brought to you by @mercury_witch
