PO QC corrects AB’s point about the number of people who didn’t get the contract. He said the figure of 62 refers to people who had issues with their contract. AB accepts this point.
QC asks why he didn’t follow procedure. By not accounting in accordance with his contract he deprived the PO the chance to investigate.
a) settle to cash (pay out your own pocket)
b) roll over the debt into the next accounting procedure
c) put it into suspense
PO QC confused by the rollover procedure and how it differs from putting figs into suspense. #postofficetrial
AB blusters a bit.
PO QC asking why he didn’t put this into dispute.
J picks up QC and says he is ignoring parts of a PO letter which is demanding payment.
AB says because he was looking for support and some solidarity.
QC asks if it wasn’t because he was worried someone...
AB says it’s the first time he’s even thought of that possibility.
And notes an issue he had with Giro duplications
AB No. That was a Horizon issues without the shadows of a doubt.
QC I don’t think it could have been.
AB Well, we all make mistakes, don’t we?
QC it’s not an outlandish thing to think then, that these losses were at least partly caused by errors.
AB It can only have been Horizon.
QC You had one
AB It was very basic.
QC I don’t think it was. I think it was perfectly adequate for the purpose
AB Well I was the SPMR and I’m telling you it wasn’t.
AB - That’s because when I went looking for the problem in Horizon I found it.
J - it’s being put to you so you can answer.
AB [pointedly] No.
AB by way of answer says just look at my evidence in which I talk about hanging on hold for an hour and then getting advice where they’re reading instructions off a screen. When you get to the end of that, where do you go?
Gone back to AB’s appointment. Reading some heartwarming stuff from the welcome bumph that PO gives new SPMRs.
Notes phrase “your training with FULLY cover” [his emphasis] cash and stock etc
QC then asks his expectations as to training when Horizon came in.
QC - let me interrupt
Judge - no let me interrupt - re-examination has to come out of cross examination.
QC - it is, he was asked about his training expectation
Judge - and you got your answer
QC I wasn’t, he was answering a different question - I asked him about his expectation - not what happened…
Judge says he’s got his answer.
Then that’s it from the JFSA QC
He is told he is free to leave. Pam Stubbs is sworn in - second lead claimaint.
He says he’s talking about 1999 and it might be right to suggest she can’t remember everything very clearly.
PS says her memory is pretty good.
PO QC says these are every day events so memory might not..
PS says if he’s talking about Aug 1999 then it very much was like a car crash and she remembers it vividly.
PO QC asks if she’s referring to her husband’s death (PS succeeded her husband as SPMR...
PS says yes.
PO QC says - but we’re talking about things like signing contracts.
PS Well let’s see what documents you want to remind me of and I’ll see how much I remember of them.
PO QC - okay.
PO QC Did your husband have a contract?
PS Never saw one. PO also has no record of him being appointed.
But you must have understood he was operating under a contract.
PO QC did you ever see him checking his conract? for allowances etc
PS we had a fairly divided marriage. Well, not divided, but he..
PS I assumed I would be taking over the branch on the same terms as my husband ran the branch. I don’t recall having seen a contract.
PO QC and the PO was very supportive.
PS Colin was very supportive
PO QC shortly before your husband died you said you would like to carry the PO on as SPMR and the PO was supportive.
They agree around 2 hours.
PO QC was the agent/principal relationship explained?
PS Not to my recollection.
PS - yes. And PS gives explanation of £600 which went missing whilst they used a temp SPMR when they went on holiday. They swallowed the loss and vowed never to use him again.
PS - yes but it was limited in the paper days and it made checking everything so much easier. Explains how her husband was good at using paper to track down mistakes (usually made by her...
PS - cos we had no idea what he did to lose it and there would have been no point. We just vowed only to use people we knew and we eventually trained up someone ourselves.
PO QC You understood you were an agent?
PS Yes but I was taxed at source for a number of months at the emergency rate by the Post Office.
This causes some consternation.
PO QC was that something to with your status as a worker?
PO QC suggests the death of her husband might have affected her mind when she was signing documents to take over the branch the next day.
PS accepts this is a possibility.
PS says no
PO QC asks if it is conceivable she could have signed it
PS Anything it possible?
PS is not sure.
PO it’s possible you did?
PS it's possible
PS I would expect it to be first class
PO QC and you'd expect necessary training?
PO QC and expect a decent helpline?
PO QC and you did this because you were rebuilding your house and Post Office
PS explains everything including the works she was doing AND her...
There is a discussion about the support she got from the PO before she moved to the portakabin. Relationship at this stage with the PO is good.
PO QC jumps to Pam’s suspension later on that year.
PO QC were you surprised?
PS Astounded. Staggered. Because for more than 6 months I had been asking the Post Office to try to find the source of these alleged shortfalls.
PS there seemed little point. They’d already suspended me and locked me out of my office.
PO QC I see, but are you still saying you didn’t have the SPMC at that stage? Wouldn’t you have gone to look at it?
PS I was as angry and upset as I have ever been in my life. I didn’t feel - having had a great many letters to and from Nigel Allan (PO). I felt there was...
PO QC They couldn’t stop you writing to them though.
PS They couldn’t, no. I wrote to people at the PO who...
PO QC - one letter you wrote states you thought you could only be terminated if you’ve done something wrong. Did you not realise yo could be terminated on notice?
PS Not really.
PO QC draws attention to another letter she wrote when she resigend saying she was giving 3 months notice which suggests she did know about the notice terms.
PS I called the helpline and they….
PO QC where did you get the idea you could hand in 3 months notice
PO QC are you sure you didn’t have your SPMC contract by this time?