Thread by @hexcrawl

This thread mostly makes me want to go back to bed. (Worth reading!)

But the "I don't really understand Campbell" stuff does remind me of a point I've been meaning to make: Classic megadungeon and hexcrawl structures inherently fall into a very simplistic Campbellian pattern.

https://twitter.com/benjamilt/status/1243807482834632704

Megadungeon: You literally cross the Threshold into a Mythic Underworld and there Attain the Prize.

Hexcrawl in a Points of Light Setting: You leave civilization, cross the Threshold, journey in the wild, and then return home.

philotomy.net/musing/mythic_…

The fact that the experiences of the PCs "beyond the Threshold" aren't scripted doesn't make this any less true.

There's a reason why these basic structures remain resonant, even when decades of bad design practice has done its best to smother them up.

(Reminder: 5E forgot to teach DMs how to run a dungeon crawl. They even forgot to tell DMs how to key a dungeon map!)

Looking at these structures through a Campbellian lens, though, there are a couple things I think often get forgotten or under-developed:

1. The point from which you Attain the Prize to the point at which you Return Across the Threshold (i.e., escape the dungeon) is often as long & important as the first half of the story.

GMs, perhaps influenced by "fight-to-boss then quick exit" video games, are neglecting this.

I wrote "Escaping the Dungeon!" specifically to encourage the players in my open table to get out of the dungeon before the end of the session (so that this half of the adventure would be played out instead of skipped over).

thealexandrian.net/wordpress/2149…

(This is not some Universal Truth(TM). There will be plenty of dungeons -- particularly smaller dungeons -- where it will be clear nothing of interest is to be gleaned and wider principles of pacing will skip that empty time.)

thealexandrian.net/wordpress/3150…

Even when this happens relatively cleanly in a megadungeon (good mapping, return route well secured on the way down), however, I find that it has a good psychological effect on the table.

Partly because it demonstrates the acquisition of valuable knowledge they've obtained on their journey (i.e., the accuracy of the map they've made).

Partly because it demonstrates accomplishment (you secured this route; look at these things you killed & rooms you looted).

2. The gleaning of knowledge leads us to the second neglected facet: What you carry back across the Threshold is supposed to transform the world you left behind.

If you look back at the earliest play reports of Blackmoor and Greyhawk, this happened!

If you look at published versions of Blackmoor they're filled with businesses and buildings owned by the PCs. This is just one example, but the entire old school structure was based on taking the stuff you gained from the dungeon and using it to transform the world.

Clearing hexes, building strongholds, establishing churches, waging wars. Also creating new spells (many of which we all cast unto this day) and even entire new professions (we need to invent the cleric because we've discovered there are vampires down there).

In running Castle Blackmoor myself, I've been using a system of Special Interest XP inspired by Arneson's First Fantasy Campaign.

Short version: You only gain XP from money you spend on non-adventuring stuff.

thealexandrian.net/wordpress/4095…

This has had the virtually immediate effect of the PCs investing their dungeon loot into things that transform the village of Blackmoor in radical ways.

#ArsMagica similarly has a transformative structure at its heart: You go out into the world to discover things that you then use to improve and change your covenant. (At the most primal level, you seek out sources of vis -- raw, primal magic -- and use it in your work.)

But you don't need full-blown structures to do this as long as you're mindful: What happens when the PCs dump a half dozen cloaks of poisonousness onto the black market? If they bring back a decanter of endless water, how might the local villagers petition them for its use? Etc.