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#DisclosuresTribunal John Barrett, head of HR at AGS, has resumed giving evidence. Michael McDowell SC, for Sgt McCabe, questioning JB. McCabe claims JB told him RTE Paul Reynolds' reports on leaked copies of O'Higgins report came from Garda Comm's office. JB denies this
#DisclosuresTribunal McD asks about meeting JB had with McCabe and his wife Lorraine in May 2016 (after Paul Reynolds' reports). MCD: In course of the discussion as to why Sgt McCabe was off work [at this time], his reaction to the broadcasts of Mr [John] Mooney and Mr [Paul]..
#DisclosuresTribunal... Reynolds was discussed and he was saying what an effect they had on him. and you said to him and his wife, 'the briefing given to RTE and to Mr Mooney [of Sunday Times] would have come from front block or Block 1, referring to the Commissioner's office.
#DisclosuresTribunal [NOTE: John Mooney gave an interview to Northern Sound radio a week or two before Paul Reynolds' reports on RTE]
#DisclosuresTribunal JB to McD: No I didn't. I have no recolleciton of saying that. JB adds there's no mention of him saying this in his lengthy minute of his meeting with Maurice and Lorraine McCabe. McD: You stated to him that the briefing for these broadcasts came from Block 1
#DisclosuresTribunal JB: No, that is not correct, sir, it's not recounted in my detailed minute, it's not recounted in my statement in the tribunal and I've no recollection of saying it.
#DisclosuresTribunal Tribunal has already heard that he asked Sgt McCabe to sign his minutes of this meeting (which took place at McCabe's home on May 31, 2016)
#DisclosuresTribunal McD: This was a person of Asst Comm rank [JB] indicating to Sgt McCabe that the broadcasts about which he was complainting had emanated from the Commissioner's [NOS] ofice...
#DisclosuresTribunal[cntd] MCD:...why would you have minuted in a record of the meeting, which presumably you might want to show someone else, why would you minute such an accusation?
#DisclosuresTribunal JB: The minute is full and complete. JB adds that he asked Sgt McCabe to intitial the minutes in August 2016 which he [Sgt McCabe] did.
#DisclosuresTribunal McD: Contrary to your recollection and your minute, Sgt McCabe understood (as a consequence of their meeting) that the reports had been instigated and inspired by Garda Commissioner's office. JB repeats he didn't say it and it's not his recollection of events
#DisclosuresTribunal McGuinness SC, for tribunal, puts to JB that McDowell had mentioned John Mooney's broadcast in his question about RTE's broadcasts. MCD: Did Sgt McCabe ever complain to you about Mooney's broadcast? JB: Not specifically. No. It was not part of the discussion.
#DisclosuresTribunal Niamh O'Connor, of RTE, is now answering questions. NOC was involved in the Crimecall programme in December 2013 [NOTE: it's Philip Boucher Hayes' evidence that then Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan spoke derogatorily of Sgt McCabe to PBH]
#DisclosuresTribunal NOC says on that day she had suggested to Philip Boucher Hayes that he speak to Martin Callinan privately (this was after there had been an issue over what questions would be put to MC). NOC said she thought if he spoke to him privately issue might be sorted
#DIsclosuresTribunal NOC has told how Philip Boucher Hayes told her the following Jan or Feb or 2014 that Callinan told him that McCabe had psychiatric and psychological issues.
#DIsclosuresTribunal [NOTE: Michael McDowell has told the tribunal that he doesn't have questions for NOC but he says he wants to correct the record. In relation to McD's questioning of John Barrett about the RTE reports, he mentioned John Mooney's reports...]
#DisclosuresTribunal [NOTE: McDowell tells tribunal that that was a mistake on his [McDowell's] part - and Sgt McCabe has told him that Mr Mooney's report was NOT discussed at JB's meeting with McCabe on May 31 2016]
#DisclosuresTribunal Mícheál Ó Higgins, for gardai, asks NOC if she got any sense that PBH was alarmed or disturbed by Callinan's alleged comments? NOC: He certainly was surprised that the Commissioner would say this....concerned, surprised, this was the story he relayed to me..
#DisclosuresTribunal NOC: I believe he was concerned by mere fact he was telling me the story. O'Higgins asks if they had any further discussion about it...NOC: Not from my recollection..he simply relayed to me the conversation he had with Callinan
#DisclosuresTribunal Tom Donnelly, of RTE, now recounting a conversation he had with Philip Bouchers Hayes in late December 2013. [Donnelly was series producer of Drivetime at this time]
#DisclosuresTribunal TD says during conversation about the Crimecall show, PBH said something along the lines of..'and you won't believe this, or you might not believe this' and then he proceeded to tell TD about his conversation with Callinan and the references to McCabe
#DisclosuresTribunal TD said PBH said Callinan had told him that Sgt McCabe had problems and that Callinan made reference or allusions to "the worst kind of things" or "the worst sort of things".
#DisclosuresTribunal TD also says PBH told him Callinan said if he wanted any more info he could talk to a colleague. TD said PBH said Callinan gestured to a colleague. TD said he took this to mean Supt Dave Taylor but TD said he can't recall PBH mentioning Supt Taylor
#DisclosuresTribunal O'Higgins, for the gardai, is now questioning Tom Donnelly. O'Higgins is asking about how his conversation with Philip Boucher Hayes about Callinan started. TD has already said he wanted to know how the row over questions to Callinan was resolved
#DisclosuresTribunal TD says it's a "quite regular" occurrence that people in public positions, or their handlers, say the interviewee will only discuss certain matters during an interview
#DisclosuresTribunal O'Higgins putting it to TD that * they * were primarily concerned about the editorial aspects of the show and not this alleged smear of McCabe
#DisclosuresTribunal O'Higgins repeats what TD said earlier. TD says he wants to make himself clear. TD said at the point he spoke to PBH, he was completely unaware of Callinan's comments to PBH.
#DisclosuresTribunal TD said that perhaps he said should have said * I * instead of * we * when he spoke of conversation being focused on the editorial aspect of the Crimecall show
#DisclosuresTribunal After further questioning from O'HIggins about TD's memory or events and his following of the tribunal's proceedings, TD clarifies with O'Higgins: You're suggesting that I didn't recall these things and the reading of the transcripts put them in my head?
#DisclosuresTribunal TD says he doesn't agree this occurred. He points out 2 things in his statement - 1) use of the term "worst things" and 2) him recalling PBH recalling Callinan gesticulating to a colleague. TD suggests these recollections are older than reading of transcripts
#DisclosuresTribunal TD confirms to OH that he can't recall Philip Boucher Hayes mentioning Taylor's name. OH suggests that this is an example of something "that's filled in". OH suggests it's "innocent retrofilling".
#DisclosuresTribunal OH has asked TD a lot of questions about PBH's efforts to contact Martin Callinan in May 2016. [PBH's evidence is that he tried to contact Callinan after he spoke to McCabe and McCabe told him about Ms D matter]
#DisclosuresTribunal Mick Wallace TD now giving evidence
#DIsclosuresTribunal Wallace being asked about his meeting with Sgt Maurice McCabe (and Clare Daly) on Oct 3 2016.
#DIsclosuresTribunal MW: The gist of what he told us is that Supt Taylor had been in the press office that he had confirmed what Maurice felt all along, that there had been a targeted attempt to discredit him becase he was highlighting wrongs in the organisation
#DisclosuresTribunal [MW has told the tribunal that the first time he heard about allegation against McCabe was in 2014 when an anonymous phone call was made to his parliamentary assistant Chris Oonan]
#DisclosuresTribunal Going back to MW and Daly's meeting with McCabe, MW says McCabe told them he had made a protected disclosure. McCabe didn't provide them with that but he he did fill them in on the contents of it.
#DisclosuresTribunal MW said McCabe said Taylor had told him [McCabe] that he [Taylor] was part of a campaign to discredit McCabe and that Taylor genuinely believed that at the time that McCabe "wasn't a good piece of work and he was up to no good".
#DisclosuresTribunal MW is asked how McCabe was describing the campaign, as told to him by Taylor. MW: That derogatory comments about Maurice were being fed to the media, some politicians and other senior members of the gardai and they were designed to discredit him..
#DIsclosuresTribunal [cntd]..MW:..and Supt Taylor was confirming this to Maurice. He was very excited about the fact that it was incredibly interesting that a senior member of the force was saying this.
#DisclosuresTribunal MW is asked if McCabe explained this info was "being fed" to journalists, etc. MW acknowledges this has become an issue of contention but says: Maurice would have given us the impression that texts were being used, that texts were being sent to the media..
#DisclosuresTribunal MW says that after he heard Taylor's evidence - in which Taylor said he never sent texts to journalists about McCabe - MW says he rang Taylor and said 'did you not tell me that you sent texts to journalists, politicians and other gardai, etc' Taylor said no.
#DisclosuresTribunal MW said (after meeting Taylor first) he definitely got the impression from Taylor that when sending texts, he got permission from Callinan to do so and he was checking them with NOS before sending them. MW: That was the impression that I left his home with
#DisclosuresTribunal MW: He (Taylor) told us that it was orchestrated, there was a campaign to discredit Maurice, that he understood at the time himself that Maurice was motivated out of badness. MW recalls how Taylor said NOS would text 'perfect' back to Taylor
#DisclosuresTribunal John Ferry BL, for Taylor, puts to MW that Taylor denies that he said that he sent out derogatory texts about McCabe. Ferry asks MW if it's possible he's mistaken.
#DisclosuresTribunal MW: I've seen that Supt Taylor said in here [the tribunal] and it's clear he couldn't have told the truth in his living room and in here. MW says it's for Judge Charleton to decide. MW adds: I think he told us more of the truth in his living room than in here
#DisclosuresTribunal MW: I found him [Taylor] genuine and remorseful. ..myself and Clare Daly discussed it afterwards and said 'he's in a bad place, mentally'...He did seem genuinely sorry that he had done serious damage to McCabe and his family, we felt he was being sincere.
#DisclosuresTribunal MW: Look it, we've met hundreds of whistleblowers at this stage...he may have embellished how he was treated himself [re: Clerkin investigation]... but I believed what he was saying about the orchestrated campaign in relation to Maurice.
#DisclosuresTribunal [NOTE: Earlier Wallace conceded that Taylor's account of the Clerkin investigation was embellished, maybe exaggerated. MW then conceded to Diarmaid McGuinness SC, for tribunal, that "misrepresented" was possibly the better word for it]
#DisclosuresTribunal MW refers to Taylor putting his head above the parapet. Says gardai is not wholly unlike the army when it comes to people blowing whistle on matters within such an organisation
#DisclosuresTribunal Ferry refers to the family trauma that the Taylor family suffered before Taylor met with McCabe..and then later met with Daly and Wallace. [NOTE: The tribunal has heard what this trauma was when Michelle Taylor gave evidence but judge struck it from record]
#DisclosuresTribunal Look it, it's hard to say much about it without going into detail...he was very emotional... he was cyring talking about it... and I could tell from Michelle that obviously it was something incredibly difficult for them... he cried a few times that night.
#DisclosuresTribunal MW says he believes what Taylor told him about the campaign against McCabe. Wallace says he knows that it's for Judge Charleton to decide but he quips no judge in the history of the State has been told so many lies.
#DisclosuresTribunal MW confirms to Ferry, for Taylor, that he can't categorically say that Taylor said he would have sent out derogatory texts about McCabe but repeats that that was the gist of the conversation as he understood it.
#DisclosuresTribunal [NOTE: MW has told the tribunal that he and Clare Daly called for NOS to resign long before they ever even head of Supt Taylor...MW listed issues such as treatment of Nicky Keogh..the non implementation of recommendations of Garda Inspectorate report, etc]
#DisclosuresTribunal Conor Dignam SC, for gardai, is now asking Wallace questions. MW: We really didn't hear anything new on the night of meeting Taylor re: treatment of Maurice McCabe. What was interesting was a senior member of force confirming what we already understood
#DisclosuresTribunal Dignam argues that that isn't true as he was told details. MW: Fact I can't say 100% that Taylor said he sent out texts speaks to detail I got.
#DIsclosuresTribunal MW confirms to Dignam that he mentioned texts on the floor of the Dáil. MW: I look back over my Dáil statement and I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. In terms of his own position, I probably gave him more credence..he was exaggerating his own position
#DisclosuresTribunal Dignam raises Garda Keith Harrison. MW: The manner he [Harrison] was treated left a lot to be desired. If you check, you'll find that at no stage did we [MW and Clare Daly] say one word about how Tusla had handled him..
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd] he came in here [the tribunal] in the wrong module and he paid a price for it because Tusla were found - if they had behaved any differently, they would have been found to be negligent...
#DisclosuresTribunal MW says that on the night the tribunal's terms of reference were set out, he and Clare Daly went to the Minister for Justice Frances Fitzgerald and told her it was a MISTAKE to put Harrison in the module he was placed.
#DisclosuresTribunal MW adds that he and Daly did raise his issues with the gardai says 'we would still insist he was treated poorly'
#DisclosuresTribunal Dignam puts to MW that Taylor has admitted to the tribunal that he did do what he was accused of in the Clerkin investigation. MW accepts this and accepts Taylor didn't tell him (MW) this when they met.
#DisclosuresTribunal Dignam: Would you accept being under criminal and disciplinary investigation brings its own stresses and concerns and that could put a person in a bad place mentally? MW: Yes I accept that
#DisclosuresTribunal Dignam: You say you don't recall Taylor specifically saying that he was sending derogatory texts..that was an assumption on your part? MW: It was the impression that he gave us.
#DisclosuresTribunal Dignam: That had been mentioned earlier in the day when you and Clare Daly met with Maurice McCabe and he [McCabe] said he had been told that by Taylor. MW agrees
#DisclosuresTribunal Dignam reads out section of Clare Daly's statement. This section (see attached) MW reads it line by line and says he agrees with it.
#DisclosuresTribunal Dignam suggests a large part of their meeting with Taylor was about his own problems (Clerkin investigation). Dignam is now looking at Wallace's notes of his meeting.
#DIsclosuresTribunal The notes included the line 'Appointed her husband to take 3 phones' Mick Wallace: He [Taylor] felt that the appointement of her husband in this role was going a bit too far.
#DisclosuresTribunal Dignam: Is it fair to say the impression you took was that this was an invalid and improper investigation? Wallace: Yeah he did say it was on trumped up charges. Wallace concedes (again) that he knows Taylor's own evidence has now contradicted this
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd]...that he's now accepted the investigation was proper and that he's even admitted to some of the allegations made in the investigation.
#DisclosuresTribunal MW says while what Taylor said versus his evidence undermines Taylor's credibility, MW says it isn't "madly surprising" that Taylor said what he said to him and Daly. MW: He's probably not the first human being to exaggerate their problem when in a hole
#DisclosuresTribunal Dignam to MW: Do you consider yourself to be lied to by Taylor? MW: I think in relation to the treatment of Maurice McCabe, I would say he was telling us the truth in his living room...he was being untruthful about his own situation
#DisclosuresTribunal Dignam: Do you believe you were sold a pup? MW: No...we don't believe for a second we were sold a pup. Wallace repeated that they felt it was very interesting that such a senior member of the gardai was speaking out about treatment of Maurice MCabe
#DisclosuresTribunal [NOTE: Earlier Wallace was asked if any journalists approached him about allegations about McCabe, Wallace said he & Daly would have a "pretty poor" relationship with media and whatever about journalists going to them, they wouldn't be going to journalists]
#DisclosuresTribunal Tribunal resumes at 1.30pm.
#DisclosuresTribunal Independents 4 Change TD Clare Daly is now answering questions. Patrick Marrinan SC, for the tribunal, is taking her through her evidence and asking her about her and Wallace's meeting with McCabe and then Taylor on Oct 3, 2016
#DIsclosuresTribunal Daly says on that day, they met McCabe for lunch after he contacted them to say he had "good news". Marrinan draws up notes she made of that lunch meeting.
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan points out there was reference to John Barrett and that he might have knowledge of the smear campaign against McCabe, McGuinness's comments to Callinan, "Oisin", NOS - resp.- "prefect". "Cunningham - Dave - 'NoS put me under the bus'.
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan: Aside from notes, do you have any recollection of McCabe telling you about texts sent by Taylor to other gardai/media
#DIsclosuresTribunal Daly: My recollection very much was that there was an understanding on Maurice's part, that after meeting Taylor, that he had evidence of that activity, yes
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan: Was there ref to the 2006 investigation? Daly: Not specifically. Not hugely. To be honest, we would have been the last recipients of that information. We would have dismissed it anyway
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan asks about the anonymous phonecall made to Mick Wallace's Dail office in 2014 (Wallace mentioned this earlier this morning) Daly says she recalls being told of it at the time. Repeats it was a claim she dismissed.
#DisclosuresTribunal Daly: I saw it very much as a campaign that we had been aware of since 2011..wholescale efforts to undermine him and discredit Maurice McCabe because of his complaints.
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan: What did you hear? Daly: I'd have been aware what I can only describe as whispering allegations but I didn't place any huge stock in it. M: Did that go back to 2011? Daly: No. First firm knowledge of D allegation was probably Paul Williams' articles
#DisclosuresTribunal Prior to that, Daly said she would have heard - within political circles and not outside political circles - that Sgt McCabe was "a bit of a nut" and a "bit of a crank"
#DisclosuresTribunal About her and Wallace's meeting with Taylor, Daly: We went with the view to verify what McCabe told us. Taylor conformed the information...He gave us an insight into how gardai were operating..we got an insight into behind the scenes.....
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd]...Daly: ... he said his job was to tip off journalists, to say Maurice wasn't cooperating, that he was driven by revenge and basically that became a frenzy around the time of the Public Accounts Committee meetings (in Jan 2014)....
#DisclosuresTribunal Daly said it struck her how Taylor was remorseful. Daly repeats that Taylor said it was his job to tip off journalists - and anyone else who would listen - that Maurice wasn't someone to be trusted
#DisclosuresTribunal Daly: We discussed phones at length...phones being bleached..that was in the context that information on phone would verify that there had been a campaign. Daly says that she can't say "100%" that Taylor said he sent texts as part of the campaign but...
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd] ...Daly: That was definitely my recollection..we talked a lot about those text messages. Daly said it was her recollection (and this corresponds to her notes) that Taylor was to feed the media and evidence of this would be on phones
#DisclosuresTribunal Marrinan asked Daly if Taylor ever complained to her about what she said in public about the protected disclosures, Taylor, etc? Daly: Never.
#DisclosuresTribunal Daly confirms to tribunal that Taylor never contacted her and Wallace in 2016. It was Wallace and Daly who contacted him (after meeting Maurice McCabe)
#DisclosuresTribunal Counsel for Taylor has gone through timeline of the PAC meetings (Callinan and McCabe's separate appearances in Jan 2014) and atmosphere in Leinster House around time. Daly said Callinan's "disgusting" remark at PAC didn't seem to rattle cages of gardai there
#DisclosuresTribunal Speaking about the media attention the PAC meetings were getting at the time and how it was being talked about in Leinster House, Daly: "I don't talk to the media but, to politicians, for sure."
#DisclosuresTribunal Speaking of meeting in Taylor's house with Tayor and his wife (after Daly and Wallace sought the meeting), Daly: It was a stressful meeting for all of us, it was raw...I thought he was genuine..we were ones who asked him to meet, in his home with his wife..
#DisclosuresTribunal (cntd) was a difficult meeting for was giving us an insight into the gardai....he struck me definitely as sincenre, remorselful..but I don't think he would have been there with us if his own situation hadn't intervened
#DisclosuresTribunal Alison O'Reilly's counsel has asked Daly if she knows AOR and if she's ever met AOR. Daly says no to both.
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR counsel: Did she ever contact you about McCabe? Daly: No. AOR counsel: Was any request ever conveyed to you that AOR wanted you to raise the McCabe matter in the Dail? AOR: No
#DisclosuresTribunal [NOTE: It was previously put to Alison O'Reilly by counsel for the Mail that she had given material to a man who gave it to Clare Daly. Mail counsel put it to AOR that she was trying to get the matter raised in the Dail and AOR denied this]
#DisclosuresTribunal Former Irish Daily Mirror journalist/crime reporter Cathal McMahon is now giving evidence to the tribunal
#DisclosuresTribunal McMahon: I learned from a source that Sgt McCabe had been investigated for alleged sex abuse of a child in Cavan area and the allegaiton was historic in nature. McMahon doesn't wish to name the source.
#DisclosuresTribunal [NOTE: McMAhon says he believes this occurred BEFORE Paul Williams' articles and that it was in either Jan/Feb 2014] McMahon has told the tribunal his source wasn't a member of An Garda Siochana
#DisclosuresTribunal McMahon: I then contacted Dave Taylor, who was press officer. He confirmed the story I had given to him and the only addition was that maybe I should go to Cavan
#DisclosuresTribunal McMahon said Taylor didn't point McMahon to anyone in Cavan to whom he should speak. McMahon said he felt his next step was to talk to his editor John Kerins.
#DisclosuresTribunal McMahon: I thought the next prudent thing to do was to talk to my editor....and seek guidance of my editor.
#DisclosuresTribunal McMahon: He [Kerins] said he didn't feel it was a story worth pursing. McMahon said this suited him as he was working on other stories at the time and he had his own concerns about the truthfulness and veracity of it. McMahon said he was happy to move on
#DisclosuresTribunal Kathleen Leader BL, for the tribunal, says it's John Kerins's position that he felt McMahonw was "disappointed" when he said it wasn't worth pursuing. McMahon: That's not my memory of the situation
#DisclosuresTribunal Leader: Did you hear the story [Ms D allegation] from any other source other than what you've told us? McMahon: I didn't
#DisclosuresTribunal Leader points out McMahon didn't come back to the tribunal with this info when it first wrote to him. McMahon said he took legal advice at the time and he was taken to believe he didn't have info which fell within the terms of reference of the tribunal
#DisclosuresTribunal McMahon: I didn't write anything, I didn't pursue it, I wasn't negatively briefed by anyone mentioned in the terms of reference...and I wasn't named as one of the 11 journalists by Taylor [whom Taylor claims he neg briefed]
#DisclosuresTribunal Leader: You say you weren't negatively briefed, but at the same time, you said you did speak to Taylor, he pointed you in a direction... McMahon: It was a direction I already knew..he was repeating what I had told him [that an an allegation was made in Cavan]
#DisclosuresTribunal Leader: But Taylor could have said, 'leave it'..instead of pointing you in direction of Cavan. Maybe it does constitute a negative briefing? He was hinting you should take the story a bit you see that now? McMahon: I'm not sure what you're saying
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge seeks to clarify. Says to McMahon outlines a made-up scenario whereby it was HIM [McMahon] being referred to. McMahon repeats: I don't believe I was being negatively briefed.
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge has asked John Ferry BL, for Taylor, to find out from Taylor if he agrees with McMahon's evidence that this conversation took place. Tribunal has already heard that Taylor is on holiday. Ferry says they will phone him now.
#DisclosuresTribunal John Kerins, editor of the Irish Daily Mirror, is now giving evidence.
#DisclosuresTribunal Kerins says he doesn't have much to dispute what McMahon said. Said McMahon told him that they had had a meeting and that McMahon said he had a cracking story and that a sex abuse allegation had been made against Sgt McCabe
#DisclosuresTribunal Kerins says this was the first time he heard an allegation against Sgt McCabe. Kerins wondered two things: 1) why hadn't there been a charge? and 2) why were gardai saying this?
#DisclosuresTribunal Kerins said McMahon never told him his source but he guessed it was Dave Taylor because he knew Taylor and McMahon were close - as he was a crime reporter and DT was head of Garda Press Office
#DisclosuresTribunal Kerins: "I couldn't believe the cops were spinning fairness to Cathal, he's an honest reporter, he would always tell you the truth, he's a low-key guy, he doesn't want to be on television every night of the week.."
#DisclosuresTribunal Kerins: I didn't believe the story and I, as an editor, I followed by gut instinct and I'm glad I did...I felt that something was wrong. It alarmed me that Garda Press Office was confirming this against one of their own members..
#DisclosuresTribunal Kerins: Usually, in regards to allegations against a garda, they cover it up from one end of the country to the other
#DisclosuresTribunal Kerins lists the publications he oversees and says he oversees 200/300 stories every day and he's always mindful of legal implications of stories.
#DisclosuresTribunal Kerins says he did see Paul Williams' article and says he thought the Irish Independent was "mad in the head" to run it. "I suspect they'll probably pay a price for it"
#DisclosuresTribunal Kerins is asked how it came to be that he brought this info to the tribunal.
#DisclosuresTribunal [NOTE: Eavan Murray's evidence about how she came to call to D house is raised and Kerins says he hasn't read her evidence as he was in Marbella for 12 days and just got back]
#DisclosuresTribunal Kerins says he likes to tel the truth and he thinks people need to know what's going on with the gardai at this point in history. Kerins said when he first met tribunal's investigators, he didn't recall this conversation with McMahon.
#DisclosuresTribunal Kerins says he got a phonecall from someone - whom he won't ID - on the day he was previously down to give evidence and this conversation triggered his memory. Kerins said he said it to his lawyer and the lawyer told him to make a statement to the tribunal
#DIsclosuresTribunal Kerins said he completely forgot about his conversation with McMahon until this call. Kerins conceded it was someone connected to his paper. Kerins said he felt he had a duty to tell the tribunal. "I was trying to be as truthful with the tribunal as I could"
#DisclosuresTribunal Kerins says he became aware, in the weeks after his conversation with McMahon, that other newsrooms were informed of the D matter and Sgt McCabe and Kerins believes Taylor was the source of that.
#DisclosuresTribunal But Kerins accepts - in response to a question from Garda counsel - that McMahon has said his original source to the Ms D matter was not a garda.
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge Peter Charleton is making a direct appeal for any journalist with any information to come forward. He says he'd rather people who invoke privilege to come forward than to sit in newsrooms and say nothing.
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd] Judge says, if they don't come fwd, Ireland will be left with daft situation whereby people who know things in journalistic profession won't have come forward to speak but nonetheless will be able to write about what happened to them after the tribunal
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd] Judge says: If that happens, people will take their own view. Judge says that that may cause damage to that journalist/publication/outlet. Judge says that might be much worse than any libel action...because people will stop trusting journalists.
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge Peter Charleton repeats his appeal, says he's making it as the tribunal is coming to an end and says there is not just a legal obligation for people to come forward but also a patriotic duty to come forward.
#DisclosuresTribunal Retired Det Supt John McCann - father of Debbie McCann, of the Irish Mail on Sunday - is now giving evidence
#DisclsouresTribunal When he retired from AGS on July 28, 2013, he was Det Supt in the Garda Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault Investigation Unit. McCann says he wasn't aware of the Ms D allegation until Prime Time (Feb 2017)
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann said he wouldn't have been a personal friend of Callinan's. McCann also says he never knew NOS personally. McCann says he didn't really know Taylor. Says they would interact more when he became Garda Press Officer - issuing joint press releases etc.
#DisclosuresTribunal Diarmaid McGuinness SC, for the tribunal, puts Alison O'Reilly's allegation to him - she says that Debbie McCann told her father (John McCann) confirmed the Ms D matter to her.
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann: Alison O'Reilly is incorrect. I didn't have any information and I certainly didn't confirm it with my daughter.
#DisclosuresTribunal McCan has told tribunal he never knew about the Ms D allegation until Prime Time in Feb 2017. He said he did hear rumours about McCabe after his retirement (in July 2013). But he said when he became aware of the allegation it didn't come as a surprise to him
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann says he must have had conversation with a colleague about the rumour. Asked what rumour he heard, McCann says it was vague but it was about a sex abuse allegation. McCann can't recall who said it but repeats it must have come up in chat with colleague
#DisclosuresTribunal McGuinness puts to McCann this is what he knew when he heard rumour. McG: You learned 4 facts - the allegation was related to McCabe, it was about child sex abuse, there had been an investigation, DPP said no prosecution. McCann agrees he did have this info.
#DisclosuresTribunal McG puts to McCann that he had this information to pass on.
McCann: "I had that information to pass on, but I did not pass it on."
#DisclosuresTribunal McGuinness puts to McCann that it's a coincidence that the information he had COULD have led her to go there [to Ms D]. McCann: It couldn't have led her to go there because I didn't know who Ms D was...
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann repeats he didn't give any info about this to his daughter. McCann says, in his job, he held a lot of info and he still has. McCann says if he wanted to give his daughter a story, he could give her lot of stories. McCann says that's not how they worked
#DisclosuresTribunal Michael McDowell SC, for the tribunal, puts to McCann that it's hard to imagine he didn't discuss Sgt McCabe with his daughter when Sgt McCabe was of such prominence in the media (in Jan 2014)
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann says his first recollection discussing McCabe with his daughter Debbie McCann, of IMOS, was in his house the day after the Prime Time programme in February 2017.
#DisclosuresTribunal McGuiness points out to McCann that, in his statement to the tribunal, he said he never spoke to his daughter about Ms D until after his retirement (July 2013).
#DisclosuresTribunal McCann said it was prob the way the question was asked. McCann: "I wasn't trying to push it out to my retirement if that's the suggestion"
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge asks McCann about his work. McCann: It was very difficult work but very satisfactory at the same time. Says they often saved children from harm.
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge: But even still, things would haunt you. McCann: Yes. Judge: Was it your pracitce to bring these things home? McCann: You couldn't bring them home with you, they would rive you mad. Judge: Thank you very much.
#DisclosuresTribunal Cathal McMahon is being recalled. This is because judge wanted to hear what Taylor had to say about what McMahon said.
#DIsclosuresTribunal [NOTE: Before McMahon returned, McGuinness, for the tribunal, confirmed that the tribunal wrote to every editor and every journalist they poss believe could have been neg briefed]
#DisclosuresTribunal John Ferry BL, for Taylor, has told McMahon: You were a journalist who was in regular contact with Supt Taylor in period that he was the press officer and in that period of early 2014, you were one of the journalists who was being neg briefed by Supt Taylor..
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd]... and the manner in which it was done was McCabe was in the news at various times and, a number of times, Taylor spoke to you about the allegation and that Sgt McCabe was motivated by revenge. You are one of the journalists who was negatively briefed.
#DisclosuresTribual McMahon: That's not correct.
#DisclosuresTribunal Ferry: And in relation to the evidence that you say, where you contacted Taylor, and you were referred to Cavan. Taylor says he never directed any journalist to go to Cavan. McMahon: That's not my recollection.
#DisclosuresTribunal [NOTE: Taylor is here in the tribunal now]
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge says there's now 13 people on Taylor's list. Ferry says McMahon was no longer working as a journalist at time he gave the trib his initial list (which started out as 9 and grew to 11 after D family said Debbie McCann and Eavan Murray called to D house)
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge is not satisfied with Taylor's answer that McMahon was not working as a journalist at the time. Ferry confirms to judge that he doesn't wish to add anybody to the list.
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge is not satisfied with the term 'wish'. Ferry says there are no other journalists or ex journalists to be added to the list
#DisclosuresTribunal McMahon is told by Ferry that it's Taylor's case that Taylor went to McMahon with the allegation - as oppose to McMahon asked Taylor about it. McMahon: That's simply not true.
#DisclosuresTribunal John Kerins is back in the witness box (after McMahon) . Kerins has repeated to the tribunal that the following story was "peddled around town": That Maurice McCabe had been questioned in relation to child sex abuse.
#DisclosuresTribunal Kerins: "The story about Maurice McCabe was being peddled around newsrooms". Kerins says he understood/understands the source of the story was Taylor.
#DisclosuresTribunal Ferry, for Taylor, clarifies that it's Taylor's evidence that he didn't brief any editors directly or "newsrooms" directly but that he briefed outlets via journalists.
#DisclosuresTribunal Kerins says it greatly upset him, as a citizen of Ireland, that this was being peddled around. Kerins is not telling the tribunal the identity of these newsrooms or who told him
#DisclosuresTribunal Kathleen Leader BL, for the tribunal, puts to Kerins that he won't tell the tribunal about who told him about newsrooms being aware of this allegation. Leader says she'll put the question to him in another way
#DisclosuresTribunal Leader puts to Kerins that the tribunal is aware that the following outlets knew about the D allegation (due to evidence already heard): the Mail group, Independent News and Media, Irish Times, Irish Daily Star and Irish Sun
#DisclosuresTribunal Leader ask Kerins if there's another other newsrooms that the tribunal should be aware of. Kerins: Not that I'm aware of, no.
#DisclosuresTribunal Tribunal has finished. It will sit from 9am to 12.45pm tmw. On schedule list: Robert Cox, of the Irish Mail on Sunday; Fergus O'Shea, formerly of the Irish Sun; and Tom Brady, of the Irish Independent.
#DisclosuresTribunal Earlier Kerins said to judge that he may not think much of journalists...Judge stepped in and said that's not the case and that he's related to a journalist.
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