Thread by @detgrim

THREAD:

In this thread, I will explain why Dutch nationalism does not make sense, as a Dutch nationalist. Definitely click on this if you consider yourself a Dutch nationalist. 1/25

Low information Dutch nationalists often idolise the Dutch golden age, the 17th century. This is the type of nationalism that appears everywhere, with imagery of oil paintings and ships travelling to east Asia.

Back in the 17th century, the Netherlands was perhaps the richest country in the world. In a time of a relative power vacuum, empire and trade secured the Republic of the Seven United Netherlands a place at the top.

This wealth and power is projected onto the modern Dutch state, with the 'Dutch people' being those that live within the borders of the modern Netherlands. In even worse cases, it's a nationalism for the state itself.

But does this reflect what the people in the 17th century thought of themselves? Was there such a thing as the 'Dutch people', defined roughly by the borders of the state?

The answer is no.

People considered themselves ethnically "Duitsch", or sometimes "Germaansch". The language that was spoken was "Duitsch", or "Nederduitsch".

This was not just the terms used by poets and writers, but also that of the state itself. It was consensus.

This is something basically no Dutch person today knows of, as it isn't taught anywhere outside of obscure historic articles.

Nowadays 'Duits' means people from the Bundesrepublik Deutschland, and Dutch people call themselves 'Nederlands'

Up until the 18th century however, Dutch people considered themselves part of the continental west germanic continuum. In other words, they considered themselves German.

A better cognate in English would of course be 'Dutch', which means 'of the people/race'.

Any Dutch person will ask how that could possibly be true, since after all Germans speak such a different language, and there surely must be genetic differences stark enough to change that.

This was no different for me, the first time reading about it. But is it true?

Again, no.

In the past, there was something called "The continental west Germanic dialect continuum". In other words, the German language area. These dialects still exist today, but in very small numbers.

There was no strong language border inside of this region.

If you would walk from a town in the northern Netherlands to a town in the south of Austria, and youd take a rest in each town on your way, you would only notice small differences from town to town.

With the invention of the printing press, this became an obstacle. People wanted to print a book that as many people as possible could read.

In the end, it was decided that the language area would be split in two. 'Nederlants' and 'Overlantsch'.

This meant nothing for the language people actually spoke, though. But it is interesting to know that "Nederlands" as a term inherently also includes modern northern Germany. It is not part of Dutch identity as defined by modern borders.

What actually caused the change in language is the introduction of standard languages. People under one government were taught one standard language, and people under the other government were taught another.

This destroyed the dialect continuum. In the early 19th century.

So the Dutch people considered themselves and their language to be German.

Can't we still be Dutch nationalists, considering the Dutch people surely have some form of natural borders seperating them from what we now see as Germans?

Well, the big centre of modern Dutch nationalism, the VOC, did not follow the state borders of the Netherlands. It was filled with Flemish and Germans.

Many famous Dutch people were born, or spent a lot of time inside of, either modern Flanders or modern Germany.

The Netherlands does not really encompass a single original language area that can be used to define the Dutch people prior to 1800

All of them bleed into at least 3 different modern countries.

Genetically, pretty much the same story occurs.

The closest genetic border to the south is with France, and the closest genetic border to the east is Poland.

These are modern maps.

Summary:

- The Dutch and German languages are standardised languages. In the relative recent past, there existed a dialect continuum between the two.
- There are no genetic borders with Germany or Flanders
- Dutch people considered themselves German (Duits) in the 16/1700s

Modern Dutch nationalism simply does not make sense, unless the Dutch nationalists either say

A) The Dutch people were formed in the 19th century
B) The Dutch people are defined by what standard language their state teaches their children

Did I just try to deconstruct an identity? Well, modern Dutch identity exists, it just doesn't make that much sense.

It is not easy to suddenly consider ourselves German again. Certainly not with modern Germany. But that doesn't mean we can't recognise we are.

Now to my point:

A nationalist in the Netherlands, Flanders, Germany, and Scandinavia, should be a Germanic nationalist. A federation of nationstates forming a single area.

Not only does this reach beyond renaissance conceptions of states being nations, it also provides something much more important. Such an area could sever itself from American influence culturally and economically and achieve true independence.

Some further reading for Dutch people that want to know more about their own history as Germans:

nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naamsgesc…
nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diets
nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectco…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodiscu…

And finally a little article from the 20th century which reflects my opinions.
The golden age was an embarassment, because we left Flanders to fight against latinisation on their own, whilst we went out and played empire without the German heartland backing us up.

Shame!