Discussing The List - an online forum where SPMRs could share knowledge and advice.
POB: How often did you post on the forum?
JT: not very often
POB when you occasionally had a problem
POB how often did you look at it
JT every day
JT it was just a statement
POB you and others are saying there are errors where the PO is at fault and this is important. so why didn’t you put this in?
JT just an initial statement. i didn’t think it would go...
POB you were asked to get relevant documents?
JT yes, but I went to my box where I keep all my Post Offie stuff and got the documents from there.
But I have just received both JT’s WSs so we’ll find out more..
POB how can you say it definitely occurred then?
POB But you are now saying it took place on 16 Sep 2014.
POB how did you make this error. It’s a big lump of time.
JT I just must have misjudged it. It’s a failure in my recollection.
POB so there was a power ucut in 2014. There is a transcction withdrawal for £600 from a customer card account and you were down £600 at the end of the day.
POB and you say you undertook investigations, including trying to contact the customer who it transpired died several days later.
POB you say you had to print off an 15 - 18 page document to get to the bottom of it. But you did find out from that what went wrong, didn’t you?
PO say a power cut would show either no activity or repeat activity - there are certain indications of power loss.
There are no indications here.
JT accepts that
POB it only offers basic withdrawal services
JT yep and the limit is £600
POB you can’t use it as a debit card or to transfer funds
POB so if there were to be a transfer...
JT yes - in this case a paying in slip.
JT we cheked the CCTV and it was only receipts going across the counter.
POB you haven’t mentioned CCTV in your WS. Neither have you disclosed any CCTV to us. Have you?
JT no cash went over the till
POB based on what you saw on the CCTV
JT I can’t evidence that, but that’s what happened
JT I investigated this to the best of my ability. i called the helpline and they said there was no power outage and I am responsible.
POB so why are you hear on oath saying you think it was a computer error
JT blethers about paying the loss back and standing the loss.
We move on.
JT cannot recall.
We are going to a document but there is some confusion about which one.
JT has no recollection of getting these receipts.
JT it does but I never had that document
JT I can’t recall
There is now some discussion about JT’s confusion about his evidence.
Once this has been straightened out POB suggests that in the case they are talking ...
More confusion about documents here.
Nonetheless after a call from JT the next day about this loss, a PEAK was raised leading to a TC.
POB So you were refunded?
POB why didn’t you mention this in your WS
JT because it caused a loss to my office and I had no explanation for it
POB do you still maintain this shows there is something wrong with Horizon?
POB it’s Horizon working as it should, isn’t it? there’s a problem, it’s investigated, you didn’t follow proper procedure, it doesn’t matter, it’s resolved and the money is returned to you. What’s the problem?
JT the problem is we don’t know what’s going on
POB yes I suspect, tho I can’t be sure.
JT the point is there was a loss to my office and I had no evidence for it and no way of finding out what had happened. I didn’t know about a PEAK being raised.
JT no I had a performance review
POB and this led to a letter being sent to you [it is brought up and the judge asks for a pause while he reads it]
J says to POB there was a situation where he had to warn 2 witnesses about self-incrimination in the Common Issues trial
All agree JT should get the same warning.
JT is brought in
JT no i never helped myself this was a way of registering my dispute with the post office.
POB but you used it to improve your financial position
JT no I didn’t it’s just a ledger entrt
POB just a ledger entry. right.
POB but you didn’t inform the pO at the time
JT I did, via the NBSC
POB when did you start taking official postage
JT can’t remember
POB you didn’t notify PO every time you did it
POB would that be obvious to PO?
JT yes because of the amounts involved.
No further questions from POB. JFSA QC Patrick Green on his feet.
Is that what you did?
PGQC yesterday in HOL failure… - is that Horizon working well?
PGQC and the printing of three receipts - is that Horizon working well
PGQC no record of transaction - is that Horizon working well?
PGQC and it was only when you went to the press office threatening to go to the media that they gave you the number of someone at chesterfield...
PGQC and when that person at chesterfield pressed a few buttons and found your transaction from your branch which you couldn’t see was that satisfactory?
PGQC no further questions.
We’re on a break.
POB would there usually be a Horizon discrepancy
AP it would happen sometimes
POB if it was just a few pence or pounds, would you make up the difference?
POB and if it was more you would investigate it and raise it with Post Office
POB Okay let’s talk about the Horizon outage in your branch on 9 May 2016. What do you remember of it?
POB we can see evidence of this outage [goes to document]
POB are you saying this was down to the outage?
AP might have
POB might have or was
AP what other explanation is there?
POB this shows the cash declaration at the end of 9 May 2016 and below that a discrepancy of £1.3K
AP can’t say that
POB well had it been, the cash declaration would have shown a much higher discrepancy
AP could be
AP don’t know
POB okay lets go to cash declaration made two days later on 11 May - that your son did - a cash total of £71K and £17,339 discrepancy
POB then, when your son called the helpline on 11 May 2016… helpline states there had been a rem in of £16K worth of coins
AP my son came in and there was a shortage shown and the helpline told HIM there’d been a rem in of £16K of coins and they told him to do a...
POB what he was asked to do was to make sure the rem in had been done correctly and to count the cash again.
POB well let’s look at how the discrepancy has arisen [goes to doc]. This was the cash that was remmed in on 11 May - £16K of £10 notes - see that?
POB £26K of £20, £16k of £10 etc
AP doesn’t answer
POB all I’m saying is that it didn’t come in on the 12th
AP cash comes in on Wed
POB all I’m saying is that none came in on the 12th - do you accept that?
POB okay let’s have a look at the cash management for your branch...
AP I think when my son called the helpline they told him to do some...
POB whatever he was told the most likely reason is that someone forgot about a big pile of £10 notes and the next day they were found and counted up properly.
AP don’t know
AP I don;’t know. I don’t think so.
POB I mean you didn’t suffer any loss as a result of this.
AP I still think as NBSC asks my son to make adjustments is… I don’t know.
POB your evidence is that Horizon caused all these problems...
AP I wouldn’t know how to answer that.
POB Okay… let’s look at another document….
AP it’s my logon, but my son was using it
POB why was your son using your logon?
AP there was only three of us so we didn’t really mind who used it
POB what I am suggesting to you is that your branch was pretty chaotic and your cash declarations were all over the place.
POB your evidence is that there are bugs in Horizon yet all the evidence suggests your branch was pretty...
AP so where did the money go?
POB but you didn’t lose any money did you?
AP is dismissed from the stand and told to return tomorrow. We are mopping up for the day.
One day each. Judge to decide when closings are going to be submitted.
A good day for the Post Office, I think.