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This is going to be a long af callout/beware thread.
I'm compelled to do this, not just for the sake of a friend's mental wellbeing, but because it is deeply disappointing to find fellow artists engaging in this behaviour.
I'm compelled to do this, not just for the sake of a friend's mental wellbeing, but because it is deeply disappointing to find fellow artists engaging in this behaviour.
As a message to my followers, or indeed anyone reading this: Please do not harass or dogpile onto any of the people I will mention here. I don’t want to see any of you doing that. Period.
This incident has been going on for months, and has extended to borderline harassment of my friend, me, and other artists/friends associating with him.
So here's a timeline of events.
So here's a timeline of events.
In 2015, @Siphran met @kariosus and started a relationship. As a gift, Kario drew Siph his sona, based on his ideas and descriptions. The piece was done in November of 2015. In March 2016, she drew him a refsheet.
furaffinity.net/view/18352831
furaffinity.net/view/19309801/
furaffinity.net/view/18352831
furaffinity.net/view/19309801/
In the following years, Kario would continue to draw Siphran's character. Additionally, Siphran ordered commissions from other artists, and partook in YCHs, along with a smattering of gift art from others too.
At this point, I'd like to invite you to think about how Intellectual Property works within our furry community, a community where one of our core pillars is artists creating depictions of others' characters.
Due to copyright law, if I drew your character, the actual artwork is still technically mine, however the character (IP) is still yours. As an artist I simply give you a license to use the image. This is the de facto method of dealing with IP in the fandom.
This is outlined in the ToS of various artists, including myself. The artwork is mine, but your characters are still yours.
The bottom line is, the artist DOES NOT OWN the intellectual property, that being the character in our case, extraordinary circumstances permitting.
The bottom line is, the artist DOES NOT OWN the intellectual property, that being the character in our case, extraordinary circumstances permitting.
So back to our timeline. Earlier this year, Kario broke up with Siphran.
There’s no real delicate way to say that, but things happen.
There’s no real delicate way to say that, but things happen.
In March of 2019, Kario posts a mildly edited version of Siphran's refsheet, claiming that the character was hers. Shortly thereafter, she sold this renamed character as "Violath" to @DesirTheBat. Refer to @Siphran's FA scraps for an idea of "mildly".
furaffinity.net/view/31000234/
furaffinity.net/view/31000234/
I can't pinpoint an exact date of sale, given that Desir only uploaded the refsheet and artwork yesterday.
Meanwhile, he has been sending notes and comments to Siphran as well as other artists, requesting takedowns, claiming he owns the character.
furaffinity.net/view/32343067/
Meanwhile, he has been sending notes and comments to Siphran as well as other artists, requesting takedowns, claiming he owns the character.
furaffinity.net/view/32343067/
Either:
A. The character is and always has been Siphran's from the start.
B. The character was made by Kario, and subsequently given to Siphran.
It would be highly unreasonable to believe anything else, because buckle up we're doing a blow-by-blow.
A. The character is and always has been Siphran's from the start.
B. The character was made by Kario, and subsequently given to Siphran.
It would be highly unreasonable to believe anything else, because buckle up we're doing a blow-by-blow.
1. Kario was in a relationship with Siphran.
I know relationships aren't supposed to be a competition in exchanging material gifts, but is it more likely that someone would gift a design to their partner, or only loan it out?
I know relationships aren't supposed to be a competition in exchanging material gifts, but is it more likely that someone would gift a design to their partner, or only loan it out?
In one instance, on the 2017 edition of Siphran's ref, Kario comments on the ref and does not act like the character is hers, if anything implying it's Siphran's character he can do with as he pleases.
furaffinity.net/view/24428320/
furaffinity.net/view/24428320/
Furthermore, Kario never attempted to sell or transfer the character for /over two years/ until after the relationship ended, which is very suspicious if this was going to be some elaborate adopt.
2. Never did Kario claim the character was hers on any of the artwork, up until she edited it and sold it as “Voliath”.
I cannot find an instance where she states, either explicitly or implied, that she believed she owned the character.
I cannot find an instance where she states, either explicitly or implied, that she believed she owned the character.
2A. Some of Siphran’s uploads state or imply that this character is his. Never has she disputed this in any capacity, either publicly or in private, as far as my knowledge goes.
furaffinity.net/view/22321689/
furaffinity.net/view/22321689/
2B. Other artists have drawn Siphran’s character and have all cited him as the owner of the character.
Never has Kario protested to these artists' citations either.
furaffinity.net/view/25775280/
furaffinity.net/view/19377289/
furaffinity.net/view/27046275/
furaffinity.net/view/27456423/
Never has Kario protested to these artists' citations either.
furaffinity.net/view/25775280/
furaffinity.net/view/19377289/
furaffinity.net/view/27046275/
furaffinity.net/view/27456423/
2C. In one instance, Siph states clearly on an upload that he was “working with her”, very clearly suggesting that the design is not Kario’s.
She posts there and does not dispute that in the slightest.
She posts there and does not dispute that in the slightest.
3. Kario’s refsheet was clearly made for Siphran based on his original ideas, and the refsheet was not of Kario’s own ideation.
3A. She’d be hard pressed to claim that refsheet is her character when Siphran’s name is on the damn thing, and his FA username predates the refsheet by a few whole years.
3B. The refsheet follows the species design laid out by @Siphran.
Siph has a notebook with writings on the sona idea; although the page itself is not dated, the dates written on the surrounding pages would date his idea to, at the very latest, 2012.
Scans courtesy of Siph.
Siph has a notebook with writings on the sona idea; although the page itself is not dated, the dates written on the surrounding pages would date his idea to, at the very latest, 2012.
Scans courtesy of Siph.
3C. The refsheet, along with any of the other content, lacked any indication that it was a placeholder to be edited later for sale, as one would normally do in the case of an adopt. I'd imagine if you did an adopt, you'd be very clear on what can be changed or not.
I find it /extremely hard/ to assume that the original refsheet, with its myriad of personal information and named the same thing as Kario’s partner at the time, was only meant to be a placeholder for a potential future buyer or something else.
Last but certainly not least, during the breakup, Kario sent messages to Siphran. One of them I have seen, and has her clearly stating that the character was, I quote, “a gift”.
I won’t post the chatlog here, but it couldn’t be any clearer. The character was a gift.
I won’t post the chatlog here, but it couldn’t be any clearer. The character was a gift.
The chatlog also shows Kario stating that she will “revoking” that gift, as she decided that Siph doesn’t “deserve it” anymore.
Breakups are hard. But I’m afraid you can’t “revoke” a gift like that, especially when said gift has become a major part of their life.
Breakups are hard. But I’m afraid you can’t “revoke” a gift like that, especially when said gift has become a major part of their life.
Believe me, sometimes, I really wish I could.
To recap:
- Kario may own the images she drew, but definitely does not own the idea of the character, as is common licensing practise in furry fandom;
- Kario never claimed the character as hers up until she broke up with Siphran;
- Kario may own the images she drew, but definitely does not own the idea of the character, as is common licensing practise in furry fandom;
- Kario never claimed the character as hers up until she broke up with Siphran;
- Kario is likely to have created the refsheet from Siphran’s ideas rather than her own, and not as an adopt;
- Kario fully understood that Siphran’s character was not hers, based on her comments when she was still in a relationship, as well as in their breakup texts.
- Kario fully understood that Siphran’s character was not hers, based on her comments when she was still in a relationship, as well as in their breakup texts.
Therefore.
❌ This character – the blue anthro glowy scaly maned wolf – is Siphran’s.
❌ Kario has no grounds to claim this character as her own.
❌ As such she has no rights of transfer.
❌ And as such, she has fraudulently sold something that is not hers to Desir.
❌ This character – the blue anthro glowy scaly maned wolf – is Siphran’s.
❌ Kario has no grounds to claim this character as her own.
❌ As such she has no rights of transfer.
❌ And as such, she has fraudulently sold something that is not hers to Desir.
I do have a few words for you, @DesirTheBat, and believe me, it was an incredibly tough call on whether or not I would publicly name you and @Kariosus in this. But this is a problem where the people doing this is important, as they are the source of said problem.
@DesirTheBat @kariosus Siphran has an entire archive full of texts and Discord chat archives with linked userIDs. I suggest if you want to settle this like an adult, you unblock him.
Better yet, as Kario, and stop doing the dirty work for others.
Better yet, as Kario, and stop doing the dirty work for others.
@DesirTheBat I am mad at you, Desir. For twisting legalese in your notes to Siphran. Or that you’ve gone around and dragged other artists, myself included, into this. Or for assuming a week is enough for him to get back to your accusation when he’s had a most hectic month.
@DesirTheBat But I don’t want to make this about you, Desir. This isn’t your fault. You have a character you bought for real money, and now you’re getting defensive over being conned because damn, that was probably a lot of money.
I understand.
I understand.
@DesirTheBat But the fact of the matter is this, @DesirTheBat:
@Kariosus has sold you something that is not hers to sell.
You are being conned.
@Kariosus has sold you something that is not hers to sell.
You are being conned.
I’ve made this thread because, though I care for the wellbeing of strangers and wish neither of them harm, I do care for the wellbeing of my friends, first and foremost.
When a friend says he has trouble sleeping and focusing on his life, I’m compelled to do something about it.
When a friend says he has trouble sleeping and focusing on his life, I’m compelled to do something about it.
@Siphran - like most of us here in this fandom - has a certain right to be able to participate in what is effectively the most fundamental aspect of being in this online community, which is using his sona/character freely as an expression of himself, without fear.
I don’t know what should be done with Desir’s use of Siphran’s character, and the whole illicit sale. It’s something they will need to talk over very carefully.
If Desir didn't pre-emptively block Siph before he could get a response with, anyway.
If Desir didn't pre-emptively block Siph before he could get a response with, anyway.
You cannot claim I or Siph have falsified evidence (for this? really?!) while simultaneously citing the testimony of a single person, a testimony I, among others, find dubious at best.
Again, act like adults, converse this properly, and @kariosus, rather than making someone else do your dirty work for you, actually talk this out with Siphran yourself.
That is all.
That is all.
I'm sorry, are we still going? Have I not made myself clear? I guess I'll have to list everything out!
As far as I can tell, at that time, Siphran's life was caught up with:
- a move into his current flat
- two of his flatmates moving out
- two flatmates moving in
- a one month motorbike trip across europe
- test rides with said motorbike for that trip
- a move into his current flat
- two of his flatmates moving out
- two flatmates moving in
- a one month motorbike trip across europe
- test rides with said motorbike for that trip
- me visiting for 10 days
- a cacophany of 24, 48 and 72 hour shifts
- a cacophany of 24, 48 and 72 hour shifts
All of a sudden you drop this very sensitive and difficult situation that involves what I presume is a three digit sum of money, as well as his /ex/ who he has to be careful with because she's not in a great headspace, on him, not to mention he knew you were his ex's friend.
What the fuck makes you think he'd be in a good position to conjure up a case file?
Never mind the fact that your entire case appears to hinge on the very fact that Siphran has a life that doesn't happen to revolve around your, or her, timetable.
Let me point to the tweet again.
Let me point to the tweet again.
If you are going to dismiss this entire thing solely on the fact that Siphran didn't quite reach an imaginary deadline I quite frankly don't want to even try speaking with you anymore.
So, starting from his loose framework, with continued input from Siph (per the FA posts), you created the character, and subsequently gave it to him (per the chatlogs)
You giving it to him is the part that matters. I don't understand what's hard to grasp.
You giving it to him is the part that matters. I don't understand what's hard to grasp.
If I give you an idea and you develop something out of it, what results is, at the very least, not wholly yours.
You should know this when you take commissions.
You should know this when you take commissions.
Especially if you hand it back to me and go, "here you go, this is yours."
This isn't a flattering picture to paint of yourself, honestly. Especially when he clearly is, in light of everything that's been brought up.
Even if he was a creep and is pretending to care - which I doubt - that doesn't automatically make his stance less valid.
At risk of sounding like a Redditor, don't ad hominem your way out of this.
At risk of sounding like a Redditor, don't ad hominem your way out of this.
Exactly. There was no contract. You never exchanged any terms, no outstanding, exceptional conditions were made.
As your boyfriend at the time, why would he assume anything but unconditional help, then?
As your boyfriend at the time, why would he assume anything but unconditional help, then?
Your entire case hinges on how Siphran didn't expect you could yank his character out from under his feet. Which, I believe, everyone here seems to agree that that's a really unreasonable thing to expect from an SO.
I really hope you find a different hill to die on, @kariosus.
I really hope you find a different hill to die on, @kariosus.
@kariosus "I do not want me or my designs associated with such a vile person."
AKA "I don't want him to have it anymore."
Well, tough. You'll need something better than that.
AKA "I don't want him to have it anymore."
Well, tough. You'll need something better than that.
Anyway, I've been blocked by Kaori. She claims I'm harassing her.
Fun!
Fun!
As far as I can tell she's just tried to revoke the character because she doesn't like Siph anymore.
Breakups suck. But "I don't like him!" is not enough reasoning to convince me - or really, anyone - that you have ownership of an IP.
Breakups suck. But "I don't like him!" is not enough reasoning to convince me - or really, anyone - that you have ownership of an IP.
I have screenshots and chatlogs we can verify for authenticity, but I'm still on the fence of posting those or not given they're private chats.
It might just be the only thing we have left, though.
I really don't want it to come to this.
It might just be the only thing we have left, though.
I really don't want it to come to this.
I'm glad there are people more articulate than I
That's why I'm compelled to do this.
Kaori and Desir stand to lose a few hundred bucks and a character between them.
Siphran stands to lose a fundamental part of self-expression, identity, and what it means to be part of this fandom.
Kaori and Desir stand to lose a few hundred bucks and a character between them.
Siphran stands to lose a fundamental part of self-expression, identity, and what it means to be part of this fandom.
Hopefully this is a first step in making things right, Desir.
As for forgiveness – I don't know what Kario says, but Siph is a sweetheart who I'm sure can forgive. And if he is ready to forgive, then so will I.
As for forgiveness – I don't know what Kario says, but Siph is a sweetheart who I'm sure can forgive. And if he is ready to forgive, then so will I.
Seriously, @furaffinity? You're going to suspend @Siphran because his ex thinks she can rescind a gift she gave to him?
@furaffinity @Siphran Thanks to everyone who's sharing this, we need all the support we can get.
Don't forget to boost the main thread but also don't forget to send support to @Siphran himself. I'll be fine; he's the one who needs this the most
Don't forget to boost the main thread but also don't forget to send support to @Siphran himself. I'll be fine; he's the one who needs this the most
