Thread by @jeffs_comics

Who were the Great Heroes of Fiction before Super Heroes

Someone at DC wrote a short article on it in this 1964 More Secret Origins 80 page giant

(I am a sucker for collections of origin stories - are you?)

The first hero discussed is Gilgamesh, King of Uruk of ancient Sumeria in Mesopotamia, and becomes a figure of legend.

He befriends the Wildman, Enkidu (said to have been created to rid Gilgamesh of his arrogance), and defeat the Bull of Heaven.

Enkidu is stricken with illness by the gods, and his death profoundly affects Gilgamesh. Enkidu's shade tells Gilgamesh how bleak the Underworld is

Gilgamesh seeks out immortality, but learns that immortality is beyond his reach.

That story - of a King who finds a friend who's very different from him, they have adventures, but the friend dies, and the King is left struggling with mortality.

Of course, if you bring back Spock or Jean Grey or Bucky Barnes, it kinda ruins it, doesn't it?

The next Hero of Antiquity is Herakles.

Most of his famed 12 Labors are against Monsters, like the Hydra or the Stymphalian Birds (which he killed with arrows tainted with Hydra blood)

In one version, the Stymphalian Birds are women, guilty of not treating him hospitably

One of my favorite Hercules stories is his strangling the serpents in his crib, sent by Hera to kill him.

Reminds me of baby Superman early on showing his power.

In some myths, Hera puts a glamour on Hercules, and believing he is killing his enemies, he kills his own family. In remorse, he takes on what becomes the 12 Labors.

Reminds me of recent storylines with Wolverine / Logan

It is love, treachery, and doubt that kill Hercules.

A new wife uses the blood of a centaur whom Hercules had killed for trying to molest her as a love potion. Its poison, and Hercules dies in agony.

His immortal part lived on - an odd duality there.

The next is a group of heroes - a Justice League of Ancient Greece

Its Jason at the helm of the Argo, with of a shipload of heroes.

I'm particularly fond of the Theseus legend

The writer even points out that the Argo's Quest for the Golden Fleece is the mega-Crossover Event of super heroes, including Hercules and others with super powers.

The Golden Fleece was the hide of winged ram, a symbol of kingship.

The next group of Heroes of Antiquity turns out to be the Teen Titans heroes at the Seige of Troy.

These were the Sons of the Argonauts, in a massive cross-over event that lasted 10 years.

The Greeks are in the House, or Horse.

File under: Character Reboot

We all know the story that Achilles was invulnerable except for his 'Achilles Heel' from being dipped into the river Styx (come sail away, come sail away with me)

Yet Homer goes on and on about his *armor*, which an invulnerable guy doesn't need

Who's got a famous shield?

Nyah, not that MCU guy, how about Achilles!

After his armor is lost (Patroclus was in it, long story, very Iron Man), Hephaestus makes Achilles as wondrous shield.

Check out how Captain America and Achilles both die.

Achilles is shot by an arrow from Paris, considered a coward (might even be a poison arrow, the blackheart)

Steve Rogers is shot at by Crossbones (but secretly killed by Sharon Carter)

Here is the Judgement of Paris by Paul Cezanne.

There are lots of great paintings of this moment, when Paris judges the three naked gods, each also offering bribes of Great Skill, Great Power, or Great Trophy Wife

If comics have a male gaze issue, it ain't just comics.

Its funny in how Paris is generally seen as a coward, a bowman.

I think there is this trend in comic books today too. People make fun of Cyclops or Hawkeye who attack from a distance, but not of The Thing or Wolverine who are brawlers.

From the Trojan War to go to the Arthurian Legends.

This set of stories (with reboots, just ask Sir Kay) has it all - from great romance (and tragedy), to grand quests, from chivalry to arch foes to final battles

Here the writer discusses the how the great hero Cei, with a sword that made unhealable wounds, is eventually 'rebooted' as the Arthurian legends changed over time, until he becomes just Sir Kay

And others changed too, from Merlin to Percival

How the stories about Arthur continued to grow over centuries, crossing over to Europe, adding flavors and characters perhaps more representative to the listeners like Galahad, until an 'iconic' version was put together in Le Morte d' Arthur by Sir Thomas Malory

There is so much in Arthur that rings bells for me as a comic book person.

The boy Arthur, good and noble of heart, pulling the Sword from the Stone (and/or anvil), to become King Arthur sounds like Billy becoming Captain Marvel (and wizards each!)

Do you think Stan and Jack created the Teenage Hero who gets No Respect?

How about the Boy King Arthur, who has to fight a war to get other nobles to side with him and unify the land.

Arthur didn't have to keep fighting, but like Peter, he knew where his duty was.

And fellow Gardner Fox fans might see in a New Round Table in the Justice Society of America.

A band of equals, brought together prove that it is not Might makes Right, but for the Mighty to champion that which is Right

And of course, the Arthurian Legends gives us an image of the Knight Errant, drapped in shining armor, on a quest to prove his mettle and his metal.

Sounds like Iron Man, although we can debate just how much Tony Stark may be a flawed legacy of that.

When we think King Arthur, we think of Excalibur. A one of a kind sword, forged in magic.

Again, modern superheroes like Alan Scott, the Green Lantern, wield magic items like this as members of a fraternity of Knights Errant

The End is where Classic Legends beat comic books hands down.

Modern super heroes are owned by Corporations, they are IPs of immense value.

We don't get the Quest for the Grail and the End of Camelot. Comics give us an Eternal Camelot

What are your favorite Arthurian Legends?

See any strong connections to comic book heroes?

Dungeon and Dragons has a way of describing people's morality as alignments. Its a Law vs Chaos axis and a Good vs Evil axis to create 9 types.

The Arthurian and Greek legends show us how good stories come from having the Brady Bunch grid populated.

While heroes are 'good' and villains are 'bad', the lawful and chaotic axis is slippery.

Here is a grid from the Princess Bride. Lots of great stories or franchises or mythologies should be able to fill in this grid

Which brings us nicely to the next Heroes of Legend written about.

And what of Robin Hood?

In both the legend, and in research, he was an Outlaw Hero, loyal to the King but not to local power.

Robin Hood was brought over as a super hero as if by magic Xerox machine

Why does Speedy wear red?

Hello Will Scarlet

And what kind of hero is Robin Hood?

Quite a different sort altogether from a King Arthur

He is not trying to build a Camelot, he's fightin' City Hall for the common people!

Huzzah!

Well, at least until he's caught and executed
All nice and legal, I'm sure.

There are lots of bits of the legend of Robin Hood. There is the part that there is a 1% Elite issue with the new Norman conquerors, and the old Anglo Saxon trying to make Briton Great Again, but mostly its about a grassroots (greenwood) resistance against the powerful.

So, back to our Alignments, and Robin Hood is often used as the most famous Chaotic Good

He fights for Freedom, not for a nation like Braveheart, but for the everyman. He believes the laws only have value if they elevate the common person

Robin Hood as 'Chaotic Good' makes his legend a bit subversive.

I wonder of the loyalty to "Good King Richard" was just Political Correctness in its day

And the whole "Steal from the Rich, give to the Poor" thing

Robin Hood even subverts the Cowards Strike from a Distance thing that we talked about Paris of Troy being labeled with.

Robin sends a clothyard shaft into an armored knight, himself obviously a state sanctioned bully

A Chaotic Good hero makes for wonderful Lawful Evil villains.

Lawful Evil make those villains we just love to hate. They use the legitimate levers of power for their own ends.

Its exactly this type of hero DC was really missing in the 1960s

Doctor Doom was for me a great reason to love Marvel villains growing up. Evil (it says so right in his name), but we learn his sympathetic back-story, his arch-foe Reed Richards is a bit of a jerk, and The Word of Doom is Law.

The Post-Crisis Luthor is similar

This is the fun of straight-up Chaotic Good heroes.

The Lawful Good are the ones the Establishment would praise for their restraint and respect for the law.

The Neutral Good are best ignored, or at least given bad PR to keep in line.,

The Chaotic Good aims to misbehave

All these legends show different struggles:
Hero vs Hero with a different point of view
Trying to build a just society out of the wilderness
Striking from the wilderness against an unjust society

Characters like Guinevere, who follows her heart and helps bring down Camelot.

Another neat bit in these legends are the "Fight means Friendship" thing

We sometimes see Arthur fighting Lancelot, or Robin Hood fighting Little John. We see that in comics sometimes too, often in the form of a team-up after a few pages of fisticuffs between heroes

The article (written in 1964) moves on to talk about American Folkore.

Heroes like Davy Crockett - real but exaggerated - to Paul Bunyan, a literal Tall Tale that begins with an oral tradition and is embellished by a later writer.

We get to John Henry, Steel-Driving Man

The story of Man vs Machine
Man wins, but at the ultimate price

The article advocates the contest was real, possibly the Big Bend Tunnel for the C&O railway

This was written in 1964, and I present the article in it entirety - sorry for any offensive words.

The story of John Henry has been used a symbol of labor, dignity, pride, diversity and more.

DC has John Henry Irons

We often comment on how comic book super heroes are like a mythology or folklore.

They are telling tales both timeless and changing to fit the teller and the audience.

I think they take out death, which often gives a tale its full measure, to protect their commercial value

I think death could still be part of the comic book super hero arsenal of story telling. Robin Hood has a famous death, but we can continue to tell variations of the story over and over.

That's all the seeds I have to sow in this thread, I think.

From the field of Troy to the Alamo, from the Hall of Justice to the Castle of Camelot, we can see the threads of heroic stories down from then to now.

Let me know if you like the thread,
-Jeff

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