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The court has returned for the afternoon session on #NIIMS
PS Interior Kibicho will be re-examined. Follow us for live tweets
PS Interior Kibicho will be re-examined. Follow us for live tweets
Counsel says re-examination will take 1-1.5 hours. The Court releases Jerome Ochieng for the day and he will be cross-examined tomorrow
“#HudumaNamba is citizen-focused in the provision of services”
He says that for ordinary citizens #NIIMS will make things easier because all information is saved in one singular card
“Are you aware that under Art 1.18 the legislative function has been delegated to parliament by the citizens?” - Dr Kibicho confirms that he is aware and adds that knowing this the Ministry used legislation with active participation which was completed “well ahead of time”
“Before any orders by the Court were given we did a country-wide sensitisation” on #NIIMS
He adds that all documents from the country-wide pilot programme are publicly available
On the question of what is mandatory on the data capture form Dr Kibicho says that the only mandatory information required was the ID for 18+ and for those under 18 a birth certificate for citizens of Kenya
“For people who did not have those documents, we would of course not put them under consideration for the first phase of #HudumaNamba”
He adds that #NIIMS is a lifelong process and those excluded at this stage will be captured later
“If #GOK already had this info, why couldn’t it be consolidated?” - “our databases have been interfered with and a lot of fake docs have been produced”
“Time had come for a responsible government to clean up the [fraudulent documentation] and the only way was for the claimant to come forward and verify”
On data minimisation, the witness refers to his affidavit and says that the info NRB asks for to issue an ID, #NIIMS captures just by asking for the ID number. He adds that “we also want to know where you are” which is why info on address etc is requested
“The data is important for our planning” which is why they asked for this additional Information
On whether #HudumaNamba registration is an ongoing exercise, Dr Kibicho says that #GOK bought 31,500 kits for this period with which they were targeting the 10,000 primary and assistant chiefs to remain with them forever
Dr Kibicho says birth certificate info will be optional “unless it is required” (we too are confused)
Kibicho explains that #NIIMS will “remove a lot of headaches because every second we will know what has been added or removed from the database”
A lot of this is anchored with the sub-chief because he “knows everyone and therefore when you go to apply, the assistant chief must sign that he knows you, your parents, and that you are a Kenyan”
On the #NIIMS software development, Dr Kibicho says that 100% has been done locally under the Ministry of ICT and has been tested by professional hackers
@MarthaKarua is objecting to the respondent going into areas that were not covered on cross by talking abt system tests. Counsel Regeru says that this relates directly to the questions on software. The Court asks the Respondents to refer directly to what was asked in cross
Dr Kibicho confirms that not any “Tom, Dick or Harry” can hack into #NIIMS
Dr Kibicho says that no threats or intimidation was used for people to register for #HudumaNamba but that any #NIIMS registration happened due to the sensitisation that happened in the communities
On #DNA, Dr Kibicho says “we did not plan, we are not planning and we will never collect DNA”
He adds that DNA is only relevant when there is a comparison. He says it’s not practical to collect DNA but that it’s just because they are using the dictionary definition of biometrics
DNA may still be collected but only with a court order
“The entire reason we are in this court is because the petitioner wants the process of digital population register to be stopped”
He adds that all fears on data security are unfounded
“Do you have a website where anyone can access info on #HudumaNamba?” - “we have a website giving info. The only thing we are not doing is not registering people anymore”
Dr Kibicho says that the Interior Ministry is always open for people to engage on issues and questions around #NIIMS
“On the people that we call #stateless, the CS has established a task force to establish what should be done with them”
@MarthaKarua objects to this as a new area of questing and highlights that petitioners would be keen to engage on this.
@MarthaKarua objects to this as a new area of questing and highlights that petitioners would be keen to engage on this.
Counsel Regeru states that undocumented Kenyans are stateless people - there is objection in the court room to this framing and the Court asks the public to observe decorum
The Court clarifies that undocumented Kenyans are not stateless
Dr Kibicho says that if people are in the geographical space of Kenya but the assistant chief does not believe they are Kenyan, this is when vetting committees must be satisfied to recommend overruling the usual requirements for document access
“Anybody who comes to us seeking information, we always gladly give it because we are obliged to”
Dr Kibicho says that he has given “adequate though maybe not exhaustive” information on #NIIMS and it’s benefits
Dr Kibicho follows up with figures on the money saved by “inter-ministerial” data collection through #NIIMS
Dr Kibicho states that the data collection policy is not confined to #NIIMS but is much broader
He adds that the Data Controller is a recommendation for the bill but that the law has been pending in parliament for a long time
“The Controllers will be appointed but we can’t do that with just a policy. An officer can only be created by law”
“The Administrators are governed by the law”
Dr Kibicho repeats that the data projection bill is just consolidating regulations on data that already exist
He adds that for both data protection and #HudumaNamba the systems are consolidating existing information and systems
On whether that puts the cart before the horse he says that the Amendment to the Registration of Persons Act was processed properly
On whether that puts the cart before the horse he says that the Amendment to the Registration of Persons Act was processed properly
“Are you aware that there are several laws that criminalise access or misuse of personal information?” - Dr Kibicho says he is aware and has drawn the attention to the court of this
“If the Amendment included any Kenyans would it serve the intended purpose to bring everyone on board? - “we would have then not been in order”
On the question of the executive order including children which the Registration of Persons Act does not, Dr Kibicho says that it is not amending any law but that it just says that they will be “guided” by certain laws which are understood to include refugees as “all”
“Was it your understanding that you were then required to abide by the law? - “that was our understanding”
On the cost/benefit analysis, Dr Kibicho says that he had already explained that #NIIMS has financial and convenience benefits
“In terms of hard cash the main cost was the acquisition of the kits and payment for the administration”
Dr Kibicho says that they are trying to create something akin to the social security number in the US and they will be saving 18 billion every year
“When Kenyans turn 18, you don’t even have to travel to your village to vote because you can vote in a digital platform. That is where the rest of the world is going”
“But the first step must be the creation of a register that is trusted”
Dr Kibicho is now listing the benefits outlined in his affidavit stating that they improve service delivery or improve the affairs of the country
“When a child is born and given a birth certificate, that certificate forms the primary folder for that child and will walk with it till death”
“The Nubians [sigh]...has there ever been discrimination of the Nubians?” - “There has never been any discrimination” the PS Interior Ministry says and adds how vetting can happen in other communities
“Whenever a person of Nubian ethnicity goes before a registrar and is told to go and vet” this is just because that person is suspicious to the assistant chief - this would also happen to a Kikuyu...”every Kenyan is vetted because the assistant chief always has to sign”
“Are border communities the same as tribes?” - “They are not [....] and I will add that not everyone from a border community requires further vetting”
“Vetting is done equally at the suspicion of the assistant chief. And this happens because you are in a border community or you are in a cosmopolitan area where they are not sure”
Dr Kibicho adds that they are continuously going to do mobile registration for those who are not able to go and register
On historic discrimination, Dr Kibicho says that there are those who have come after 1963 and say that they are part of the community that was given special consideration pre-63 and should be considered Kenyans
He lists communities that are now recognised as tribes and says that it is an “ongoing consideration and that the Nubians are also part of this consideration”
On the choice of convenient service, Dr Kibicho says that “the provision of #HudumaNamba is a govt initiative to ensure that citizens are convenienced when they want service” and adds that if people do not want that, they are not forced to register for #NIIMS
“#NIIMS is not mandatory and that’s why we have people in this court room who do not have it”
“After all this what to we give Kenyans? [...] Eventually we give a Huduma Card - a third generation ID which is digital”
“After all this what to we give Kenyans? [...] Eventually we give a Huduma Card - a third generation ID which is digital”
“That Card Is your identification card”
They are back on vetting and the make up of the committees
“The Phrase best interests of the child resonates with most of us. Are there any benefits to the child under #NIIMS” - Dr Kibicho talks about services provided to children
He says that the government will not fail to provide services when there is no lack of information - “all we are doing is tracking the development of that child for purposes of planning”
He establishes that the decisions were “mere recommendations”
“Our first allegiance is to our own Constitution; everything else is secondary”
They are now talking about altering information and that you need info such as docs and fingerprints to verify
On the lack of choice on consent to data sharing on the data capture form nothing is actually clarified but Kibicho is now talking about the fact that you didn’t have to sign the data capture form
“We didn’t want to buy ink for everybody and the pens to sign”
“I don’t know why I would fill this form which is voluntary only to then say don’t use my data”
On issues of national security, Dr Kibicho says “it’s non-negotiable whether we access your data or not” and that it is provided for in laws how national security issues are defined
Dr Kibicho speaks about the fake IDs that have always been discovered after terror attacks and cites this as one of the reasons that the information must be cleaned up
On incremental registration as recommended in Estonia, Dr Kibicho says that this will be cleared up as other IDs are phased out - “in another 70 years we will have everyone with one identifier”
“You stated that you awaited the courts decision before you could process the info you are holding. Why do you think the Court should allow you to process?” - Dr Kibicho speaks to ease of service provision and the value of a single ID
“In that card, there will be a chip. And that chip is encrypted. And depending on whom you appear before, they will have a reader that can only read the relevant information”
He gives the examples of a traffic policeman who can only read information that relates to your driving through the chip
“The reader will extract just information relevant to them”
His appeal to the court is that they be given the opportunity to give Kenyans this benefit.
Respondent counsel does not have further questions and the Court releases the witness
Respondent counsel does not have further questions and the Court releases the witness
The Court is adjourning till tomorrow 10am - tomorrow Jerome Ochieng and Loyford Mureithi will appear for examination
