Good morning from US District Court in DC. At 10 am, House Judiciary Committee & DOJ lawyers will appear for a hearing in the Democrats’ lawsuit to get Robert Mueller’s grand jury materials as part of their impeachment inquiry. I’ll live tweet some of the proceedings. 
There are no HJC members here but top Democratic aides for the panel are in the courtroom to observe the proeedings, including staff director Perry Apelbaum, Norm Eisen & Barry Berke.
Here are links to a couple of recent @politico stories if you want some background on what's been said to date on this case: politico.com/story/2019/09/… & politico.com/story/2019/09/…& politico.com/story/2019/07/…
Chief Judge Beryl Howell, an Obama appointee who oversaw the Mueller grand jury, is presiding in this case. Arguing for the House is its general counsel, Douglas Letter. The lead DOJ attorney is Elizabeth Shapiro, deputy director of the civil division.
"All rise!" Today's hearing has started.
At the DOJ attorney table is James Burnham, deputy assistant attorney general. He previously worked in the WH counsel's office under Don McGahn.
Judge Howell tells the House of Rep attorney he should not assume that she's read the unredacted Mueller report. "I'm just a member of the public," she says. A member of the public who supervised the grand jury.
Judge Howell at this point is just trying to establish what the HJC wants to still see and hasn't yet seen from the Mueller report.
Doug Letter explains they want to see grand jury materials related to what witnesses saw or heard w/ respect to both candidate Donald Trump and President Trump and WikiLeaks.
Judge Howell asks how much the House is speculating about what it thinks is in the Mueller redactions and that it does relate to Trump's mindset. “I think it's very informed speculation," Letter says, pointing to material around the redactions.
Letter notes there are unredacted materials about what Paul Manafort may have relayed to the president about relationships the campaign had with WikiLeaks.
Judge Howell asks how much DOJ has turned over with respect to FBI 302 interviews. Letter says the House has gotten "very limited" material, including nothing involving Don McGahn and his top aide, Annie Donaldson.
Letter, "The very heart of what we need to look into, as the Judiciary Committee and the Intel Committee are engaged in our impeachment investigation, which is going full bore, we’re getting almost nothing.”
Judge Howell says she wants specifics from HJC by the end of the day about why it needs all the grand jury materials, noting her opinion is going to be a "speed bump" on the way to the DC circuit federal appellate court and she wants to establish a factual record.
We are now in a discussion about whether congressional impeachment proceedings are a "judicial proceeding" that would open the door to the grand jury material. The House maintains that b/c there's a Senate trial that it is a judicial proceeding. DOJ says nope.
Judge Howell asks where the HJC wants her to draw the line on what is an impeachment proceeding. She notes GOP ranking member Doug Collins filed an amicus brief arguing that the House must hold an authorization vote.
In a lighter moment: Letter says he has multiple arguments, asks Judge Howell, “How long have you got?" She replies he can go as long as he needs. Letter jokes, "Terrific, I like district court arguments."
Letter says the House can say when it's doing an impeachment. "The House is fully engaged, in fact, we're spending one heck of a lot of time on an impeachment investigation as I'm sure you are aware, both the Judiciary Committee and several other committees in the House.”
Judge Howell posits that this could be resolved if the House would just vote to authorize an impeachment inquiry. "You'd probably rule for all of us. We'd be done," Letter says. But he notes there's no House rule, or anything in Constitution or statute, saying this is required.
Judge Howell presses Letter to explain if Pelosi did anything different with the latest impeachment press on the Ukraine call. He replies no. "An impeachment inquiry was already going on." My colleagues @desiderioDC & @kyledcheney wrote about this here: politico.com/story/2019/09/…
Howell presses Letter whether the House impeachment inquiry is just Ukraine focused. He replies that it is not. "Right now the media is focusing on that," he said.
Letter says Pelosi has not limited the impeachment inquiry to Ukraine. He explains how the 6 committees will get together and share their potential articles against Trump to House leadership. Then HJC will report any articles to the full House.
Letter says the House Judiciary Committee "could easily" include articles of impeachment against Trump dealing with obstruction of justice and interference with a US election. "I can't emphasize enough it's not just Ukraine," the House counsel says.
Judge Howell honing in on what is the need for various specific Mueller grand jury redactions. She cites an example about Michael Flynn and notes the House isn't trying to impeach Michael Flynn. Letter checks with his co-counsel and says they don't need that one.
Howell says she doesn't want to go page by page on all redactions. Letter says he doesn't either.
Howell cites the Michael Cohen guilty plea for lying to Congress and asks if HJC wants materials to avoid being misled by witnesses. "Absolutely, your honor," Letter replies.
Letter says the House needs to see McGahn grand jury materials to tell whether he's telling the truth or if Trump is trying to further obstruct justice when he says McGahn is lying. That could be another impeachment article against the president, Letter says.
Howell notes this next line of questioning is a little off topic, but she asks, "Does President Trump have to have committed a crime to be impeached?" Letter replies,
“No, he does not.”
“No, he does not.”
Howell: "Can a president be impeached for lying to the American people?" Letter replies, "I believe so, yes, absolutely." They then talk about the articles of impeachment against President Clinton.
Letter closes his arguments noting this is the only time the House is aware of where the DOJ has opposed grand jury material release in an impeachment proceeding. "Frankly, we’re baffled why suddenly this practice over many decades is now reversed," he says.
DOJ's Elizabeth Shapiro is now defending the government's position the Mueller grand jury materials should not go to the House.
Shapiro explains the House sent a broad subpoena for 33 of the FBI 302s. The DOJ is in the process of producing them to the panel. Redactions that have been made are for "confidential" or "presidential communications," but not for executive privilege, she says.
Judge Howell says she wants by COB from DOJ how many 302s have so been produced and any material in them that's being withheld "so I can evaluate the department's argument that there's no particularized need to show all this information."
Now we're talking about the FOIA cases -- EPIC, Buzzfeed and others - that are out there to try to pry loose all parts of the Mueller report. Shapiro says there is no "constant proceeding" by DOJ to remove redactions absent those lawsuits.
Judge Howell presses DOJ to say whether any of 13 Mueller requests for material from foreign governments included grand jury items. She asks if DOJ is blocking Congress from getting info that already was given to foreign governments. Shapiro says she'll get the answer.
Thanks @brespolitico for thoroughly shaming me for not threading my tweets. Lots to juggle here at the courthouse w/ spotty internet service. Back to the hearing.
Judge Howell: "I’d like to know how much this information the department is resisting giving to the U.S. Congress has already been shared with foreign government officials.” DOJ's Shapiro says she'll get an answer by Friday.
DOJ's Shapiro says the House keeps "shifting" in its reasons for why it needs the Mueller materials. The initial application was about obstruction and the Mueller report and McGahn. Howell cuts her off, says she may need to give "deference" to the House.
Howell: "You haven’t given me any lines. Where do you think i should draw lines?"
Shapiro: "The Department of Justice thinks it certainly needs to be more than what it is now.”
Shapiro: "The Department of Justice thinks it certainly needs to be more than what it is now.”
Shapiro says even Pelosi has given different accounts of whether the House is in an impeachment investigation.
Shapiro: The House needs to show "some degree of formality” that it's doing impeachment.
Howell: Agrees a vote would "make my life very much easier. But short of that what degree of formality is the department saying I need to look for?"
Howell: Agrees a vote would "make my life very much easier. But short of that what degree of formality is the department saying I need to look for?"
Shapiro: "We’re not advocating any specific line.”
Howell: "That is so not helpful.”
Howell: "That is so not helpful.”
Howell says based on DC Circuit and SCOTUS precedent "I owe enormous deference" to how the House decides it's in impeachment proceedings. "Am I misreading those cases?" she asks.
Shapiro argues if DOJ wants the Mueller grand jury materials it could pass a law to change the rules on this.
Howell has made a couple of side points worth mentioning: She points out DOJ's policy that a sitting president can't be indicted has never been addressed in court. She also notes the Mueller probe at about 22 months was "among the shortest special counsel investigations ever."
Correcting this tweet: Shapiro argues if Congress wants the Mueller grand jury materials it could pass a law to change the rules on this.
We are now deep into the weeds of some Nixon-era precedent & grand jury materials. Hearing has been going for 2 hours.
Howell just pressed DOJ to say whether then-US District Court Chief Judge Sirica was wrong to disclose the Watergate road map grand jury mateiral to Congress. Shapiro at first said it was "impossible to say" what happened in 1974 was wrong.
Shapiro then said if the same Watergate road map case came today there'd be a "different result" because the law has changed since 1974. She said the judge wouldn't be able to do the same thing absent changes to the grand jury rules and statutes. "Wow. OK," Howell replies.
Howell, "As I said the department is taking an extraordinary position." Shapiro replies, "I don't think it's that extraordinary, your honor."
Shapiro is done with her arguments. Letter is back for one more round. Judge Howell said she'll issue an order later today on what all the DOJ's homework assignments will be (materials they need to submit to the court).
Letter wrapping up and talking about Trump's different comments about McGahn. Howell interjects, "I can't keep up with what the president says to be honest.”
Letter says he talks to Pelosi all the time, including last night, where he previewed what he'd be arguing in court. "She's totally on board with this. This is the position of the House.”
And at 12:17 the hearing ends. "You're all excused," the judge says. Expect an order later today summing up everything. My story in @politico TK shortly. Thanks everyone for following along.
