There is a debate this morning in Parliament’s Westminster Hall on the proposals to allow self-identification of gender. David T C Davies has kicked off showing a complete lack of understanding about current prison policy.
He’s now stating that discussion on trans issues is being shut down. “This is about debate ... we have a right to discuss these issues.”
Having stated earlier that “80%” of trans people don’t undergo surgery, and pointing out that the current gender recognition act doesn’t require surgery, he then asks that people shouldn’t be vilified for saying that “women don’t have penises”.
Davis’ speech seemed to end on quite a desperate note. Layla Moran now on her feet.
Moran says she doesn’t see a conflict between being a feminist and supporting trans rights. She also says she has been talking to women who have concerns about the proposals.
Moran now laying out the basis of Equality Act protections that are already in place.
In reply to a point Davis earlier made, she says that some women have beards, and that she wouldn’t worry about sharing a changing room with a trans woman.
Moran now asking if the aim is really to roll back the provisions in the current Equality Act.
Moran states that acquisition of a gender recognition certificate for nefarious purposes would be quite a stupid act, because it shows evidence of premeditation and possibly fraud.
Moran says it’s important that schools accept difference and give space for students to discuss issues, but that’s a far cry from encouraging them to change gender, which would be a step too far.
“Hear hear” rings out as Moran finishes with “trans women are women, and trans rights are human rights”
Hannah Bardell condemns Davis for speaking in over-simplified terms, and reinforces Layla Moran’s points about identity fraud.
Bardell says that so much legislation around trans rights are based on fear rather than acceptance. She references that the spousal veto has been scrapped in Scotland.
Bardell urges MPs to think about the issues trans people face in an over-medicalised system. She calls the challenges “truly heartbreaking”.
Bardell says there will always be those who abuse the system, but that policy shouldn’t be made on that basis.
Bardell quotes providers of women’s services who state they are inclusive - including one who says that they don’t look at people’s birth certificates.
Bardell closes by saying there is “a groundswell of support” for trans people.
Dawn Butler now speaking, and begins by referencing the 369 trans people killed in the last year, marked by yesterday’s Transgender Day of Remembrance.
Davis asks what comment he made which was offensive. Butler replies that Davis said that people “were unfortunate enough to suffer from gender dysphoria”.
Despite the parallels that Butler made with quotes in the past that people were unfortunate to be gay or a woman, Davis replies that gender dysphoria is a medical condition which causes distress.
Butler stating that Labour’s position is to support reforms to the Gender Recognition Act.
Danielle Rowley has also made several interventions supportive of trans people in this debate.
Butler reads a report of sexual assault on a trans woman which was dismissed by the police because it was just a guy having a laugh, and probably also because of the lack of police resources.
Butler says that it means that trans people are reluctant to report crimes.
The Minister is now replying. Victoria Atkins starts by saying that many MPs are finding their feet in this area, and calls for a respectful, caring and careful discussion about these issues.
Atkins says that public institutions need a greater understanding of the law and how to apply it. She also notes the discussion has focused on trans women, but that trans men also exist.
Atkins says the questions in the recent consultation were deliberately open, and that no decisions have yet been made about changes to the existing Act.
Atkins says that there were over 100,000 responses to the consultation and that Government hopes to have its response by the spring. The calls for evidence from intersex and non-binary people should be published shortly, but won’t delay any process.
Atkins says that existing rights of trans people will be protected.
Atkins says that Government is still willing to hear from all groups.
Davis intervenes asking that local authorities should allow groups to meet. Atkins replies that she is a supporter of free speech, and that there are laws on hate speech, but that debate should be caring and careful.
Atkins says that Government has met with Woman’s Place, Fair Play for Women and Transgender Trend, as well as feminist groups who support reform of the Gender Recognition Act.
Atkins reiterates what the current law is. Butler asks if it’s right that there should be no right of appeal. Atkins replies that the Government is still processing responses and assessing what reform, if any, is required.
Moran raises the spousal veto with a story from a friend of hers who says that it has stopped this person from going through the current process because the spouse felt it wasn’t their position to be asked permission. Atkins replies that the consultation process is ongoing.
Atkins states that domestic abuse refuges and others have robust safety processes and the law currently allows them to be inclusive of trans people.
Atkins references the prisons issue, by saying the recent case was “appalling” and that civil servants are reviewing how the current policy was applied in that case.
Atkins says that Government is looking at the experiences of young people who are transitioning, and references the increase in numbers. She states that this is not unique to the UK.
In his final reply Davis condemns all violence against transsexual people. He says that he has spoken on violence against women on several occasions, and was on a committee which reviewed laws.
Davis complains about Mermaids again, referencing that they are in receipt of government money.
Davis says that a “trans woman is a trans woman, worthy of respect”.
The debate is now closed.
My final thoughts were that it was one man, with a bunch of supporters in the audience, who seemed to insist that there were problems, against a bunch of women who were inclusive of trans women. Make of that what you will.
