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#DisclosuresTribunal Tribunal has resumed. Michael McDowell SC, for Sgt McCabe, now asking Callinan about the comments that journalist Philip Boucher Hayes claims Callinan made to him in December 2013 about Sgt McCabe (that he had psychiatric issues, etc)
#DisclosuresTribunal Callinan repeats he had no part in any campaign against St McCabe and repeats: I never gave any direction or instruction to Taylor to brief any journalist or any person in media negatively about Sgt McCabe. That's my position.
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell now raising a report by RTE's Paul Reynolds in which he reported on Feb 24, 2014 that Callinan had "issued a direction" to Sgt McCabe "to cooperate with the investigation being carried out by the Assistant Commissioner" [John O'Mahony]
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell reading out the text of Paul Reynolds' news item which McDowell claims was made available to PR by the gardai. McDowell claims this item "suddenly appears" prompted by An Garda Siochana telling RTE about these matters
#DisclosuresTribunal McD claims the RTE report was "wholly misleading". McD says there was no sense in which you wrote to Sgt MCabe at all. What actually happened was he [Sgt McCabe] was called into a room and a doc was read out to him and he asked for a copy and it was refused.
#DisclosuresTribunal Tribunal hears Judge Charleton hears that - if he came to the RTE report fresh - he would have taken from the story, because of the way it was worded, that Sgt McCabe didn't cooperate with JOM. Callinan agrees that he thinks that's a fair summation
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell suggests the story came from Garda Commissioner or Garda HQ. Sean Gillane SC, for RTE, asks how McDowell can possibly make that claim. Charleton quips that nobody will tell him the source of the report.
#DisclosuresTribunal Conor Dignam SC, for AGS, says no document/unheaded press release has been discovered in Garda HQ which would suggest it was the source of the report. Charleton: At the moment there doesn't seem to be.
#DisclosuresTribunal Sees text from 22/03/2014 at 8.27pm (3 days before Callinan resigned). Text: "Yeah just thinking so much pressure being exerted from Labour riding on Varadkar's opener. Hope Kenny can control the pack on Tues and u would need a plan B if needed in a hurry.."
#DisclosuresTribunal "...- I mean what u were putting together yesterday. Similarly if u were door stepped or at an official function. Reynolds would help out if an interview arose somehwere. Just thoughts and recommendations."
#DisclosuresTribunal [NOTE: Tribunal has already heard that Callinan's phone records don't establish who was the sender or receiver of the texts] Asked who sent him this text, Callinan can't recall
#DisclosuresTribunal Callinan says that despite what might look like a "convivial" situation, RTE's Paul Reynolds is well able to carry out vigorous questioning
#DisclosuresTribunal NOTE: Sean Gillane, for RTE, has pointed out that just because something gets repeated, it doesn't make it true. Gillane points out Paul Reynolds' report didn't include the words "refused to cooperate"
#DisclosuresTribunal Callinan says he was not the source of Paul Reyolds' report. Also repeats that he believes Sgt McCabe didn't engage with JOM. See more about the "co-operate v didn't cooperate" debate at the time here:…
#DisclosuresTribunal [NOTE: Supt Taylor has said the matter re: JOM report was part of his briefing to negatively Sgt McCabe. See here:…
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell reads out sections of what Callinan said to PAC in Jan 2014 including this
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd] and this...
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell puts to Callinan that he was "threatening" Sgt McCabe by saying this. Callinan says: No, I was certainly not.
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell also reads out this bit:
#DisclosuresTribunal McD now goes to the transcript of the meeting Sgt McCabe had with the guard who dispatched to McCabe telling him stop accessing PULSE or disclose data to 3rd parties. [McD has also told trib McC had nothing to do with Gemma O'D story re: Call's pp quashing]
#DIsclosuresTribunal This is transcript of what they discussed AFTER Chief Supt Curran read out the Comm's letter.
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell says that what CS Curran said to McCabe (on behalf of Callinan) was that "if he had further concerns" to contact JOM. Callinan says he sees this as an invitation. This was part of the direction:
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell has returned to the 2011 circular that Chief Supt Colm Rooney sent to gardai - essentially saying the Byrne/McGinn report vindicated everyone. (Rooney apologised for sending this letter 7yrs l8r this year when he gave evidence to the tribunal)
#DisclosuresTribunal McD points out that the letter was the subject of correspondence between McCabe's solicitor and the Commissioner's office in August 2011. And suggests Mr Callinan would have known about it at the time.
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge Charleton says the point McDowell is making is that Sgt McCabe was "bullied" through this correspondence and ppl were laughing at him. Charleton points out Rooney has apologised and and Callinan agrees it was a "foolish" letter.
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell argues that the Rooney letter "wasn't a frolic on his own". That the complaint was made to the highest level and nothing was done about it. It wasn't withdrawn, etc.
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell says, after circular, McCabe spent number of years regarded as an outcast at AGS. Callinan says that "we must be open, honest and reasonable here". He says McC was a man making complaints against his colleagues of course there would be bad feelings.
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell said fine but Rooney had a duty to be fair instead of ridiculing him. Callinan agrees.
#DisclosuresTribunal McD asks Call why he never once picked up the phone and called McC. Call says there were a lot of ppl interacting with McCabe and that AGS is a structured service.
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell puts to Call he put huge value in maintaining a distance from McCabe. Call says if at any stage McCabe directly or through his solicitor wanted to speak to him, his door would have been open and he would have been "very receptive"
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell puts to Commissioner he was very happy to pick up phone and speak to Gerald Kean and contact was made with Sgt McCAbe's uncle Bernard McCabe but he couldn't talk to Sgt McCabe. Callinan says this is not true.
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell puts to Callinan that the general reaction towards Sgt McCabe was "to close ranks against him" Callinan: As far I am concerned that wasn't the case.
#DisclosuresTribunal McD raises the allegations made by three separate people - Fianna Fail's John McGuinness, Fine Gael's John Deasy and C&AG Seamus McCarthy - that Callinan made derogatory claims to them at PAC on Jan 24, 2014
#DisclosuresTribunal Call: That is not correct... I've already indicated the interactions I've had with those three ppl and indicated what I said to them....I'm here to tell the truth and as far as I'm concerned...certain issues have been misinterpreted by some of those parties.
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell points out that Deasy and McGuinness were/are not political allies. Callinan: All I can do is give my evidence openly and honeslty and that's what I've done
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell points out that C&AG Seamus McCarthy had NO motive when he came forward after Judge Charleton made an appeal for anyone with relevant info to come fwd. Call agrees with that.
#DisclosuresTribunal Callinan tells the tribunal that it is the case that McGuinnes met with "one or two of the key witnesses" to the tribunal and "I don't know what, if any, influence they had but..." Callinan says this caused him concern.
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell: You're not suggesting that Sgt McCabe put him [McGuinness] up to...Callinan: I don't know what the position is chairman, I'm not making any allegations...there was interaction between McGuinness and McCabe.
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell: Are you seriously suggesting that somehow McCabe put McGuinness up to telling lies about you? Callinan: No I'm not suggesting that...I'm merely stating the fact..we have evidence of those interactions..
#DisclosuresTribunal Callinan:... and those interactions took place at a time prior to statement forwarded to this tribunal. ...they are the facts and I don't know...I cannot make allegations, of course I can't.
#DisclosuresTribunal Callinan points out again that there was contact between McGuinness and McCabe and contact btw McGuinness and Supt Taylor. McD: Do you not think it would be perfectly natural for someone in McGuinness's postion to speak to ppl involved?
#DisclosuresTribunal Callinan points out that McGuinness had very serious allegations and that he had a duty to report the matter [i.e. carpark meeting in which McGuinness claims Call said McCabe abused children]
#DisclosuresTribunal McD says reason McGuinness didn't make claim public was he didn't want to cause further damage to McCabe family. Call: I think that's an extraordinary position to adopt. Call says it should have been brought to O'Higgins Comm of Invest [ May 2015 to Dec 2015]
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell says that was completely outside the terms of ref: O'Higgins (which examined allegations of poor policing). Callinan insists it should have been. McDowell suggests they leave it to the chairman to decide.
#DisclosuresTribunal Callinan puts to McDowell: This was the Commissioner of AGS making these complaints and he decides to sit on his hands? It is certainly beyond my comprehension.
#DisclosuresTribunal As for C&AG, Callinan says: I do think there was a misunderstanding of sorts in context of what Mr McCarthy says i said....I have height of respect for C&AV...if that's what he heard, that's what he heard.
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell suggests it's not possible that four people, who couldn't have possibly colluded, all suggest he attacked the reputation of Sgt McCabe in one calendar month
#DisclosuresTribunal Callinan points out McGuinnes told Dail in May 2016 that he was told "vile allegations" against McCabe [the carpark meeting]. He says he is then accused of saying these things in Jan 2014. Callinan: What happened between that date in Jan 2014 and May 2016?
#DisclosuresTribunal Callinan: What happend in the intervening period? It seems stange to me that nobody came out of the traps essentially? McDowell repeats that for any of them to make them public would have further damaged the McCabe family
#DisclosuresTribunal Call says in respect of McGuinness, he had a duty to bring it to government. Callinan says Deasy can't back up his allegation with any fact. As for McCarthy, Call said "we're at loggerheads...but I do think that he's mistaken."
#DisclosuresTribunal [NOTE: Re: not making the allegations public, McDowell said: They were "untrue, unfair and damaging ...and making them public would only add to the damage that was already done to McCabe"...
#DisclosuresTribunal McDowell to Callinan in respect of McGuinness's claim that Callinan told him he abused children: "You did make it up and you did utter it." Callinan: "No."
#DisclosuresTribunal Tara Burns BL, for Supt Taylor is now questioning Callinan and taking him through his correspondence with justice Iarlaith O'Neill who did a scoping exercise of Sgt McCabe and Supt Taylor's protected disclosures ahead of the tribunal.
#DisclosuresTribunal Burns has asked Callinan why it took several letters from O'Neill before Callinan denied the allegations made by Taylor. Callinan says it was because he was advised that the allegations were not set out in sufficient detail.
#DisclosuresTribunal Burns suggests to Callinan that he could have denied the allegations with the caveat that he wanted more detail. Callinan repeated he needed more detail. Burns: "You could have denied them and said they're vague"
#DisclosuresTribunal Tribunal sees that in his third letter to Callinan, O'Neill wrote: "I ask you to reconsider the stance you have adopted in response to my previous correspondence".
#DisclosuresTribunal Tribunal hears it was after this 3rd O'Neill letter that Call wrote to O'Neill (on Nov 16, 2016) and said "I confirm in so far as is possible given the limited details that the allegations are denied."
#DisclosuresTribunal In further letter to O'Neill Call said: "I have been advised that any possible matter arising from the 2 protected disclosures should have been raised at [O'Higgins Comm]..."
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd] "...and that the failure to do so is a bar to any further form of inquiry involving matters which ought to have been raised." Burns asked Callinan: Surely you had desire to clear your name? Callinan: 100% guaranteed I was going to clear my name.
#DisclosuresTribunal Will resume at 1.30pm.
#DisclosuresTribunal [NOTE: Noirin O'Sullivan is scheduled to give evidence next Tuesday (May 29) and then a number of journalists will give evidence. See here:
#DisclosuresTribunal Burns BL, for Taylor, raises the claim Callinan has made to the tribunal that: after Taylor was arrested and suspended in May 2015, Taylor called to his house and told Callinan that he was angry over the matter that he would "bring down" NOS (which T denies)
#DisclosuresTribunal Burns read out that in response to question from tribunal investigators - when asked if could offer any explanation re: Taylor's allegations - Callinan told investigators: "No, I can't. The allegations have come as a complete surprise to me."
#DisclosuresTribunal That interview took place on March 13, 2017 and Burns asks why he didn't raise the claim that Taylor said he was going to bring down NOS. Callinan says he answered the question he was asked. Callinan said his focus at the time was on himself.
#DisclosuresTribunal Tribunal has already heard that the position put forward by counsel for An Garda SIochana is that Taylor made the allegations of a smear campaign in order to bring down NOS and, in order to do that, Taylor dragged Callinan in to it to make it seem credible.
#DisclosuresTribunal Callinan tells Burns that he doesn't believe he told NOS that Taylor (allegedly) said he'd bring her down.
#DisclosuresTribunal Call: Taylor did have a grievance, there is no doubt at all. Callinan says he tried to advise him as best he could. Told him to get on with his job and try to make a career for himself...and that Traffic matters were of huge importance to AGS
#DisclosuresTribunal Burns repeats: Why didn't he bring it to attention of NOS?
Call: I felt he was just hitting out about what happened. It was an understandable human reaction. I wasn't going to get involved into details of arrest/inquiry. That would be interfering.
#DisclosuresTribunal Burns points out it was a threat.
#DisclosuresTribunal Burns points out he didn't tell Iarlaith O'Neill about the alleged threat to bring down NOS. Asked if he told NOS about it at the time they were notified of the protected disclosures (Oct 2016), Call says he's no recollection of speaking to NOS about it then.
#DisclosuresTribunal Callinan repeats that he didn't have enough detail and took legal advice. He said when the tribunal was set up and he got terms of reference, he then sat down, went through them and it was then appropriate time to disclose this alleged threat made by Taylor.
#DisclosuresTribunal Burns presses Callinan on this further.
#DisclosuresTribunal Burns: [This alleged threat to bring down NOS] is a central plank in your case to the allegations made against Supt Taylor. Call: Central plank is that the allegations are absolutely untrue, they're false, they should never have been made...
#DisclosuresTribunal ... [cntd] "I never directed any campaign, there was no campaign"
#DisclosuresTribunal Call says he notes that some things have been withdrawn by Taylor: that there were no texts sent as part of alleged smear campaign [NOTE: Taylor says he never said this. But McCabe, Mick Clifford, John McGuinness and Clare Daly says Taylor said this to them]
#DisclosuresTribunal Burns asks Call if he's actively pursuing the case that Taylor was behind McGuiness's evidence to tribunal. Call: "No, I'm not saying that but ...I would be less than honest for thinking it and not saying it...
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd]'s a fact that number of witnesses have been engaging with each other before the tribunal's on my mind..I don't go beyond that chair, but that's a fact.
#DisclosuresTribunal Burns presses Callinan to explain what his VIEW was as to why McCabe was making complaints. Burns points out when both former Sec Gen Brian Purcell and Minister for Justice Alan Shatter if there was anything in McCabe's background following his complaints..
#DisclosuresTribunal ..he told them about the 2006 Ms D allegation. Burns points to previous testimony of Callinan 1/2
#DisclosuresTribunal This is what Shatter told the tribunal - "[Callinan] speculated that perhaps Sgt McCabe was upset at the manner in which the matter was dealt with"
#DisclosuresTribunal This is what Brian Purcell told the tribunal about Callinan telling him about the 2006 allegation
#DisclosuresTribunal Call tells tribunal: All I was doing was giving the facts.
#DisclosuresTribunal Call repeats he didn't "dig down" on McCabe.
#DisclosuresTribunal Burns raises the O'Higgins Commission. Judge (quite excited) steps in and says he's absolutely sick of the matter being raised. He says: "It [abuse allegation] was never raised. Nobody raised it, it's clear on the transcript."
#DisclosuresTribunal Sean Gillane SC, for RTE, now asking Callinan questions about his chat with Philip Boucher Hayes in December 2013 ahead of the RTE Xmas Crimecall show.
#DisclosuresTribunal Gillane says when they talked, PBH had 3 things to say: 1) the programme had to be relevant 2) he couldn't tolerate agenda being set by AGS 3) He wanted to make it clear there couldn't be any question of AGS setting questions. Call agrees with all this.
#DisclosuresTribunal Gillane says PBH did not speak to Call to GET info. G: Do you remember saying to him that Sgt McCabe was famous within AGS for being motivated by grievance. Callinan: No I did not say that.
#DisclosuresTribunal Gillane now asking questions about the Feb 24 2015 report by RTE Paul Reynolds about McCabe and JOM report [For record: Charleton steps in to say that on plain wording of the document given to Sgt McCabe, it was like he was invited to dinner]
#DisclosuresTribuanl Fionan O Muircheartaigh, for Mail journalist Alison O'Reilly, asks Callinan if he ever had contact with Debbie McCann of IMOS about Sgt McCabe. Callinan says he never had any contact with McCann about McCabe. He does say he knows her father, retied snr guard
#DisclosuresTribunal [Will come back to AOR counsel's question] Mark Harty, for Gemma O'Doherty, now raising GO'D's story about penalty points attributed to Callinan's car being wiped. Harty says the doc doesn't say driver's name. See PULSE doc here:…
#DisclosuresTribunal Callinan agrees that he's not the only Martin Callinan in Ireland and she had to go to the house to confirm his address as a responsible journalist
#DisclosuresTribunal Call concedes it was a legit inquiry by GO'D but he says he felt matter should have gone through Garda Press Office. Tribunal hears (once again) that the GPO is open from 7am until 11pm. Callinan says it was "unusual" that GO'D didn't go throughout the GPO
#DisclosuresTribunal Harty: All she asked your wife [Callinan wasn't there that night] was it your home and she left?. Callinan: As I understand it, yes
#DisclosuresTribunal Call: I asked Taylor to contact paper and to tell it that such matters should go through the GPO. Callinan concedes he was angry + upset. Harty asks how it came to be a meeting was in Harcourt Street AGS office btw INM exec, Taylor and Ass Comm John Twomey.
#DisclosuresTribunal: Callinan says he assumes it was to do with security around his house and adds "I don't have that detail". Says he doesn't have any detail of that meeting. Says he read about the meeting in tribunal papers but he says he doesn't know who arranged the meeting.
#DisclosuresTribunal [NOTE: Callinan has told the tribunal he himself contacted the member in charge of Fixed Charge Penalty Notice office to cancel it]
#DisclosuresTribunal Harty tells tribunal GO'D's INM bosses came down on her like "a ton of bricks." Call says he's read that in the tribunal papers. Harty says:
She was told she ruined things, that she was a rogue journalist and questions were raised by you as to her bona fides.
#DisclosuresTribunal Going back to the meeting in AGS office on Harcourt St, Callinan says he doesn't know of the detail of the meetings. Harty asks Call:
When did you ask what the story was about?
#DisclosuresTribunal Call says he doesn't know but it would have been some time subsequent to it. Call says he doesn't know who reported back to him (Taylor or Twomey) Harty: GO'D is of the view that the animosity towards McCabe increased following the publication of that story
#DisclosuresTribunal Harty continues that this is because he [Call] then became the story. Charleton steps in to say that that's fine to have a view but asks Harty if he has any evidence to back it up, Harty says he has nothing before him
#DisclosuresTribunal Charleton points out that the PULSE record related to Callinan points out the record is somewhat looking into the future as it states the purchase of the car is May 15, 2008 but the incident is recorded as having happened on July 9, 2007.
#DisclosuresTribunal Counsel for Sgt McCabe has told the tribunal that, for the record, Sgt McCabe was not the source for Ms O'Doherty's story concerning Callinan's penalty points being wiped.
#DisclosuresTribunal Further to evidence given by Taylor in which he says a letter might have been sent on instruction of Callinan to INM. Counsel for INM says there was no such letter. Callinan says he doesn't know but accepts that. This is what Taylor said:
#DisclosuresTribunal Counsel for INM says the meeting with Twomey and Taylor concerned the appropriateness of GO'D going to Call's house and had nothing to do with her support or perceived support for McCabe or John Wilson. Call: I would agree with that completely chairman
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge clarifies with Call: so you never gave instructions to Taylor to "give out buckets" to GO'D's bosses at INM. Callinan: "Absolutley chairman."
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge asks INM's counsel if there is a denial from INM in relate to the claim that INM execs came down on her like a ton of bricks? INM counsel says there's an "unequivocal" denial and that that will be dealt with
#DisclosuresTribunal Earlier, during questioning by counsel for Mail journalist Alison O'Reilly, Call said he has never had any conversation with Debbie McCann about Sgt McCabe
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR's counsel reads out pars from a story by McCann in IMOS in May 2016: "Retired Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan wanted to withdaw the "quite disgusting" remark he made before the PAC but was stopped by the Government from doing so, the IMOS has learned"
#DisclosuresTribunal [cntd]..."Sources said it was all agreed the weeknd before he retired that he would withdraw this remark but he was stopped in his tracks." Callinan says he doesn't recall reading the story but says "Content of that article is not true"
#DisclosuresTribunal AOR counsel: So Ms McCann didn't approach you about that?. Callinan: No. Counsel: So source is not you. Callinan: Correct.
#DisclosuresTribunal Judge Charleton steps in: I don't know if there is a source at sounds like an opinion piece....and the paper doesn't refuse's one of the more bizarre things I've ever heard.
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